Soredemo Ashita mo Kareshi ga Ii

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So, i liked Their work with Airi on the serialized version of Karami Zakari.
i've left comments explaining why on that series page, i thought the expanded character work was pretty good, the expressions were very strong for Iida especially imo, and the changes and inclusion of the other characters like Akane seemed led by the artist here, based on the post volume notes from them and Airi.

I know Karami Zakari gets certain reactions from audiences who like or hate NTR, i'm not concerned with that, it is what it is, but is this in the same ballpark of emotional? If i am not crazy about NTR per se, but like KZ, would i like this?

Is this Mako girl anything like Iida? I was a big fan of Iida, she was the most improved by the shift into a serialized work instead of porn. (i also like Niiyama and Akane, they're both super neat characters)

It seems like Mako doesn't much like Kouhei based on the comments here, but it's the comment section for an NTR themed manga, so i would expect some polarization. But some of the comments make it seem like Mako is mean or cruel rather than doing stuff that would lend to the dramatic (which is appropriate for NTR, i suppose, but not necessarily what i'm looking for, especially if i'm meant to believe these characters care for each other, which is what i got out of most of the characters in KZ manga)

When I do think that Iida really liked Kousei in KZ - even in the opening chapters (he was the only guy who she ever expressly asked for sex, the bald guy and the senpai both just kind of did it and she went with it).

I'll try and find some translations in the mean time, but i'm just curious. The girl on the cover of volume 4 is cute.
 
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So, i liked Their work with Airi on the serialized version of Karami Zakari.
i've left comments explaining why on that series page, i thought the expanded character work was pretty good, the expressions were very strong for Iida especially imo, and the changes and inclusion of the other characters like Akane seemed led by the artist here, based on the post volume notes from them and Airi.

I know Karami Zakari gets certain reactions from audiences who like or hate NTR, i'm not concerned with that, it is what it is, but is this in the same ballpark of emotional? If i am not crazy about NTR per se, but like KZ, would i like this?

Is this Mako girl anything like Iida? I was a big fan of Iida, she was the most improved by the shift into a serialized work instead of porn. (i also like Niiyama and Akane, they're both super neat characters)

It seems like Mako doesn't much like Kouhei based on the comments here, but it's the comment section for an NTR themed manga, so i would expect some polarization. But some of the comments make it seem like Mako is mean or cruel rather than doing stuff that would lend to the dramatic (which is appropriate for NTR, i suppose, but not necessarily what i'm looking for, especially if i'm meant to believe these characters care for each other, which is what i got out of most of the characters in KZ manga)

When I do think that Iida really liked Kousei in KZ - even in the opening chapters (he was the only guy who she ever expressly asked for sex, the bald guy and the senpai both just kind of did it and she went with it).

I'll try and find some translations in the mean time, but i'm just curious. The girl on the cover of volume 4 is cute.
I don't know how it compares to KZ as I was only able to read like two or three chapters before I just couldn't take it ( particularly remember one bit where she was hanging out with the MC at a festival or something when some other guys showed up and invited her to go with them, and even when he protested she agreed and left, and I honestly just couldn't take anymore). However, as far as this series goes...

No, Mako does indeed love Kouhei and love him a great deal. It sort of sets up an odd conflict where the two of them are very much in love and devoted to each other, except for the fact that for some reason that even Mako can't understand she simply doesn't feel much if anything when he touches her. No amount of kissing, foreplay or sex seems to even give her a tingle. She adores him, but for some reason her body just won't respond in bed. So, at the start of the story, she asks him to try "swapping". He hates it, but does it for her. They really only have a handful of "swaps". First with a husband and wife, which is nothing but traumatic for Kouhei. Then they do it a couple times with a guy named Hikaru and his girlfriend Hina who's just as much opposed to the whole thing as Kouhei. After a couple meets with that couple, Mako is surprised to find that she's becoming extremely jealous seeing Kouhei and Hina together. She talks to the married couple about it and about her problem, which implies that Kouhei is a little too much of an "herbivore", prone to not really standing up and saying what he wants and asserting his will. They suggest some stupid "rating" system where she'd rate every step from "felt awesome" to "felt nothing", and ends up with just a bunch of "nothing" down the line. Despite this, she never sleeps with anyone else again. After that first time she felt jealous she apparently decided that she didn't want to be with anyone else or make him feel those feelings. Eventually Kouhei does have a temporary affair with a classmate named Iroha, which he feels very guilty about but aren't against the "rules" that Mako herself has said are still in play (though she also confirms that she's been 100% faithful since the trip). That said, Iroha has no problem responding to his every kiss, his every caress. At the current point, Mako's career is in jeopardy due to someone having spread rumors about her (which she can't entirely refute since while she doesn't know the details she knows they can't be too far from the truth), and next (final) chapter they'll be meeting with Mako's mother.

It's definitely a bit different from KZ on a lot of points. For one thing, as far as I was able to tolerate KZ the male and female leads weren't actually an item, it was just a guy who likes a girl who seems to be cool having sex with anyone anytime, even if she was hanging out with him at the time. Here, it's a couple who have been dating for a long time and have both at various points talked about marriage. Additionally, while KZ has the girl doing other guys all the time throughout the story (far as I know) without remorse, this one has the girl sleep with two men besides her boyfriend specifically because she thinks it'll help their relationship, only once or twice with the first and maybe two to four times with the second before she realizes that the whole thing is only making things worse and causing them both pain, so she stops. Instead of being about a guy who's in love with a girl who won't stop sleeping around, it's more a story of a guy and girl struggling to deal with a situation where their sexual relationship is failing to fulfill the way their romantic relationship does, and how much pain can come from this sort of thing.
 
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I don't know how it compares to KZ as I was only able to read like two or three chapters before I just couldn't take it ( particularly remember one bit where she was hanging out with the MC at a festival or something when some other guys showed up and invited her to go with them, and even when he protested she agreed and left, and I honestly just couldn't take anymore). However, as far as this series goes...

No, Mako does indeed love Kouhei and love him a great deal. It sort of sets up an odd conflict where the two of them are very much in love and devoted to each other, except for the fact that for some reason that even Mako can't understand she simply doesn't feel much if anything when he touches her. No amount of kissing, foreplay or sex seems to even give her a tingle. She adores him, but for some reason her body just won't respond in bed. So, at the start of the story, she asks him to try "swapping". He hates it, but does it for her. They really only have a handful of "swaps". First with a husband and wife, which is nothing but traumatic for Kouhei. Then they do it a couple times with a guy named Hikaru and his girlfriend Hina who's just as much opposed to the whole thing as Kouhei. After a couple meets with that couple, Mako is surprised to find that she's becoming extremely jealous seeing Kouhei and Hina together. She talks to the married couple about it and about her problem, which implies that Kouhei is a little too much of an "herbivore", prone to not really standing up and saying what he wants and asserting his will. They suggest some stupid "rating" system where she'd rate every step from "felt awesome" to "felt nothing", and ends up with just a bunch of "nothing" down the line. Despite this, she never sleeps with anyone else again. After that first time she felt jealous she apparently decided that she didn't want to be with anyone else or make him feel those feelings. Eventually Kouhei does have a temporary affair with a classmate named Iroha, which he feels very guilty about but aren't against the "rules" that Mako herself has said are still in play (though she also confirms that she's been 100% faithful since the trip). That said, Iroha has no problem responding to his every kiss, his every caress. At the current point, Mako's career is in jeopardy due to someone having spread rumors about her (which she can't entirely refute since while she doesn't know the details she knows they can't be too far from the truth), and next (final) chapter they'll be meeting with Mako's mother.

It's definitely a bit different from KZ on a lot of points. For one thing, as far as I was able to tolerate KZ the male and female leads weren't actually an item, it was just a guy who likes a girl who seems to be cool having sex with anyone anytime, even if she was hanging out with him at the time. Here, it's a couple who have been dating for a long time and have both at various points talked about marriage. Additionally, while KZ has the girl doing other guys all the time throughout the story (far as I know) without remorse, this one has the girl sleep with two men besides her boyfriend specifically because she thinks it'll help their relationship, only once or twice with the first and maybe two to four times with the second before she realizes that the whole thing is only making things worse and causing them both pain, so she stops. Instead of being about a guy who's in love with a girl who won't stop sleeping around, it's more a story of a guy and girl struggling to deal with a situation where their sexual relationship is failing to fulfill the way their romantic relationship does, and how much pain can come from this sort of thing.
Ok. Seems like something i could get into then. I do like the drama, and i was able to find the first 10 or so chapters somewhere, where they kind of meet Hikaru and Hina and and Hina and Kouhei go out instead of doing it in the room, and I liked it well enough, Hina acted as a 'pressure release valve' after how fast paced and eroticism forward all the other chapters felt

particularly remember one bit where she was hanging out with the MC at a festival or something when some other guys showed up and invited her to go with them, and even when he protested she agreed and left, and I honestly just couldn't take anymore
In the doujinshi this scene is much more dramatic, and i think the Manga relies a bit on you having read the doujinshi - but in the Manga, Iida and the Senpai don't actually go have sex (yet, at least, it's a later development), it's kind of a joke that relies on knowing the other version, but serves partially as characterization that further solidifies Iida as a passive observer in her own life, which is the flaw of both the MC and her have, and kind of have to get through.

No, Mako does indeed love Kouhei and love him a great deal.
Since i've now only read the first 10 chapters, i understand she says it a lot, but since i haven't made it to a point where it really seems like it, but In that way, she is like Iida, and somewhat interesting. I suppose she is very apologetic about essentially entangling him in her fetish, which is pretty good, but, you know how it goes sometimes. it's hard to tell when so many chapters are more dedicated to swapping and his thoughts than on them together or her thoughts.

It seems like these first 10 chapters are designed pretty strongly towards frustrating the reader, since the Married couple are very aggressive and the competing expectations make Kouhei essentially a victim of a set up he was reluctant to agree to, but also Hikaru is very obviously an asshole.

KZ has the girl doing other guys all the time throughout the story (far as I know) without remorse
This is true in the pornographic doujinshi version of KZ, in the 50 chapter manga KZ with the same artist as this, she really only ends up sleeping with 3 people in total, including the MC, so similar, i think.

Iida has a fraught relationship with herself and her parents, which essentially makes her a doormat, she will 'go with the flow' to her own detriment for most of the manga.

Despite this, she never sleeps with anyone else again
situation where their sexual relationship is failing to fulfill the way their romantic relationship does, and how much pain can come from this sort of thing.

So she is a lot like Iida - since by the end of KZ, the MC and Iida have a almost comical set up that mirrors the doujinshi, but is still, in a way, a committed relationship.

I will try and find more to read up to the current chapter, so i can learn about the whys and hows, because i do like relationship drama, and messy bullshit like this.

And Hina is cute. so. I'll try to look around for translated chapters, or if you have a place or process, don't mind sharing.
 
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Yeah, the big clincher for KZ for me was that I heard about the ending. I'm not 100% sure it's true or not, but from what I've heard, the doujin ends with her married to the guy but screwing other men all the time (and maybe sharing this with him), while the only thing I've heard about the manga end is that she apparently wants an exclusive relationship but he's decided he likes her being a slut or some nonsense like that.

And yeah, while Mako's behavior initially is very selfish, it does change over time. First with her dumping the swapping and trying to "fix" things between them (but screwing it up royally by making it all about whether HE is able to please HER rather than trying to take any real look at her side and how she can improve), then with her gradually realizing that the problem really is on her end as much or more than his. By this point she's clearly hurting a lot trying to find a solution, and has made it clear that while she doesn't want to break up she wants Kouhei to be happy and won't hesitate to follow his wishes, whatever they may be.

I do find it weird that I like stories with this sort of struggle. Thing is I think it's in no small part a response to the pain of past NTR stories I've read. A harsh one can really mess me up for a while, and when I was younger I read a few that were VERY bad. The only positive, and the only thing that sort of soothes it, was thinking up continuations where things turned out better, ranging from a girl who declared her boyfriend to be worthless and the taker to be Prince Charming finding out how she was just a tool to torture the guy that really loved her and then struggle to find a way to atone to a guy just breaking down and forcefully dominating the girl in retaliation for the exploitation and psychological trauma. As such, stories that actually do continue things and show a "positive" end, whether it's happily-ever-after or some kind of vengeance, are kind of cathartic.
 
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Yeah, the big clincher for KZ for me was that I heard about the ending. I'm not 100% sure it's true or not, but from what I've heard, the doujin ends with her married to the guy but screwing other men all the time (and maybe sharing this with him), while the only thing I've heard about the manga end is that she apparently wants an exclusive relationship but he's decided he likes her being a slut or some nonsense like that.
This mostly right, the Doujinshi ends with them not together, but they regularly meet up so that she can hear about all the times that she's had sex, because that's what he's into.

In the Manga, they also break up after being together for half a year, because he believes he can only get horny imagining her having sex with other men, and Iida realizes this, so she lies to him about cheating on him for his satisfaction. After that, it's similar to the doujin, where it's unclear if they're together, but they're at least in contact often, and Iida lies to him about all the sex that she's been having, and making up scenarios to tell him, but she's committed to him and only him, and she's learned to get satisfaction out of his reactions to her stories.

I thought it was really funny, it's such a silly ending, but really weirdly sweet.

And yeah, while Mako's behavior initially is very selfish, it does change over time. First with her dumping the swapping and trying to "fix" things between them (but screwing it up royally by making it all about whether HE is able to please HER rather than trying to take any real look at her side and how she can improve), then with her gradually realizing that the problem really is on her end as much or more than his. By this point she's clearly hurting a lot trying to find a solution, and has made it clear that while she doesn't want to break up she wants Kouhei to be happy and won't hesitate to follow his wishes, whatever they may be.
Ok, I will continue to read it then, I think that that is pretty engaging. just need to find some more translation i suppose.

I do find it weird that I like stories with this sort of struggle.
I just think there's a lot of internal but also interpersonal turmoil and drama and strife that can come about from stories about cheating, even if it's not pornographic.

Obviously it appeals to certain fantasies, but dealing with the fallout of that, whether it ends badly or like positive, is compelling and can help different personalities reckon with things in different ways.
--

Like in KZ, despite it not really being 'cheating', It is about healthy or unhealthy ways to explore sexuality, but it's also about respecting yourself sort of, and also like, not letting sex define your worth in relation to other people.

it ends the way that it does, which makes some of the things it discusses really really funny and a bit confused, but fundamentally they still work to the truth of the characters.
 
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This mostly right, the Doujinshi ends with them not together, but they regularly meet up so that she can hear about all the times that she's had sex, because that's what he's into.

In the Manga, they also break up after being together for half a year, because he believes he can only get horny imagining her having sex with other men, and Iida realizes this, so she lies to him about cheating on him for his satisfaction. After that, it's similar to the doujin, where it's unclear if they're together, but they're at least in contact often, and Iida lies to him about all the sex that she's been having, and making up scenarios to tell him, but she's committed to him and only him, and she's learned to get satisfaction out of his reactions to her stories.

I thought it was really funny, it's such a silly ending, but really weirdly sweet.


Ok, I will continue to read it then, I think that that is pretty engaging. just need to find some more translation i suppose.


I just think there's a lot of internal but also interpersonal turmoil and drama and strife that can come about from stories about cheating, even if it's not pornographic.

Obviously it appeals to certain fantasies, but dealing with the fallout of that, whether it ends badly or like positive, is compelling and can help different personalities reckon with things in different ways.
--

Like in KZ, despite it not really being 'cheating', It is about healthy or unhealthy ways to explore sexuality, but it's also about respecting yourself sort of, and also like, not letting sex define your worth in relation to other people.

it ends the way that it does, which makes some of the things it discusses really really funny and a bit confused, but fundamentally they still work to the truth of the characters.
Kind of a pity KZ ended like that. I actually thought up an ending I might like before stopping, and that sounds like 80% of what I imagined:
My hypothetical, which BTW still assumed that she was a legitimate slut as I hadn't read that far, had him actually as a bit of a doormat but devoted to her, and so he agreed to date and even marry her but wanted her to tell him all about everything she did. He hated that she cheated, but believing that she wanted to live that life he decided he at least wanted to know all of that side so that he'd be "part of it" in a way, and so wanted her to tell him everything. Meanwhile she herself grew less and less interested in doing it with anyone but him until she really hated it, and like you said happens in the actual ending started making stuff up. Only in this scenario he gradually starts to notice things, like stories repeating, events that seem biologically impossible, or things that he recognizes from various porn vids he's seen or heard about, eventually leading to a confrontation and them finally putting a stop to the farce and becoming just a normal couple.

Yeah, a kind of dumb conclusion to something that apparently isn't accurate to the actual characters, but somehow had surprising similarities in some points.

And yeah, while I like relationship drama to an extent, I get a little too invested in stories so the sort of ending in "normal" NTR is just not for me. I still find myself stuck when I get into a story like this, hoping for a happy ending and dreading a bad one. At least sometimes I come across good ones. Even among hentai. Like the series "Until I Take Everything From You". Name sounds like it'd be either a standard netorare or maybe a harsh netori (which I find just slightly tolerable), but turned out to be something beautiful. Didn't like the body design (I really hate certain breast designs, particularly the ones with too much sag or way too much volume), but the story actually made me tear up by the end (the point where the main girl slams a hammer into the bastard's nuts for beating up the boy she always truly loved was great!).

Honestly, if there were more stories with NTR that end with the pair getting back together, I'd eat them up regardless whether they're hentai, borderline, or even just "NTR" in the sense that the girl ends up cheating without any actual sex (heck, one series I've wanted to translate had lots of people crying "NTR" despite the absolute lack of anything sexual or even fanservice).
 

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