Summoned Japan - Vol. 3 Ch. 12

[elhessan]

@CheerTheDead Which one? The US experimental only T-34 or the Soviet's medium T-34? I don't know the US one, because it was never been deployed.as for the Soviet's, maybe, though still, they need a lot (and i mean a lot, unless they're very lucky) of firepower to do so. In the first place, we don't know the firepower of the mages explosion/fireball spells. If they're the same as hand grenades.. yeah, well.. good luck... If they have the same firepower as anti-tank grenade, still, good luck. What they need is the firepower similar to, at least, panzerfaust to fight Sherman, T-34, and Panzer VI, head-on. To face the likes of Tiger? They need to hit the rear. Against modern tanks? You need spells than can work like modern anti-tank too.

 

[themanj]

@elhessan fireball is generally an aoe or dot fire attack kinda like Molotov or napalm so i doubt it has the destructive ability to even harm tanks through penetration but it could immobilize it by smoking up the air intake
as for explosive magic... yeah unless its super powered even a hit is probably not gonna do much... unless its on the turret drive then it might separate the turret from the hull but even then ... the tank can engage at over a mile away

 

[InsaneAwesomeTony]

Thanks for the translation 😆

The Japanese keeps on dabbing and flexing...

 

[melonpotato]

man, imagine the finance minister going through the report

 

[SlurpNoodle]

@Kaiser92
"In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.
Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
- Sun Tzu"

Sun Tzu has obviously not waged war in modern times or he'd know how expensive that shit can get. The objective in "big boy" war is to affect a change in political leadership on the other side to one that is less hostile to your own. Taking the enemy's country is a fool's errand because of the economic, political and social perils it can bring, amplified by the distance it is from your country. If the enemy is your neighbor and is culturally indistinguishable from yours, by all means, take it. If it's on the other side of the world and not at all like your people? Hit them hard and install a different government that is friendlier to your own.

 

[CheerTheDead]

@elhessan

Yeah but they don't really need to destroy the armour you know.

Say if you are fighting against a small tank like a Soviet T-34. Continuous fire attack can inflict high-temperature heat onto the tank and damage whatever underneath the armour (humans, pipe, electric lines etc.) I don't think WW2 tank is designed to account for overheat due to fire attack.

 

[SlurpNoodle]

@Kirin-kun
"Anyway, "peaceful" Japan in another world, respecting their constitution? Lol.
Knowing Abe, he would have invaded the neighboring countries, to secure food and raw materials. To hell with the constitution, without any external force to keep them in line.
What I say is not "anti-Japanese". Any country in the same situation would react the same: "I'm the strongest around here? Confronted with bows, arrows and lame magic? Let's go on a rampage!""

You need to pull your head out of your warsaw-pact warfare mentality. "not anti-Japanese" my ass. Any kind of modern military adventurism is ridiculously expensive. This isn't the 1930's any more and Japan isn't a despotic 3rd world country. It's more likely to be the new economic warfare model of strikes followed by forced changes in the opponents leadership, assuming they were militarily hostile to begin with. If they're not hostile, why even bother deploying troops overseas when trade negotiations and technical assistance will get you what you want.

 

[Kaiser92]

@SlurpNoodle

Sun Tzu has obviously not waged war in modern times or he'd know how expensive that shit can get.

I'm not an expert on this, how is war more expensive now?

The objective in "big boy" war is to affect a change in political leadership on the other side to one that is less hostile to your own. Taking the enemy's country is a fool's errand because of the economic, political and social perils it can bring, amplified by the distance it is from your country.

I think he know that considering creating tributary, vassal and puppet state is a staple in China during his time 😅

If the enemy is your neighbor and is culturally indistinguishable from yours, by all means, take it.

I think you underestimate China's cultural diversity.

If it's on the other side of the world and not at all like your people? Hit them hard and install a different government that is friendlier to your own.

Bruh I think you missed the point, he said to consider using force as inferior if you can achieve victory by other means (plotting, bribery, political marriage, big stick diplomacy, etc...).
China was huge even back then so direct rule is quite difficult to achieve so creating a puppet is almost a given.
Outbreak Company is a good example of soft power war yo~

 

[SlurpNoodle]

@GambierBay
"@criver Out of curiosity do you know how long it would take for lightning to continuously strike at the amperage and voltage a typical bolt of lightning measured at to melt metal? To say nothing of the energy dissipation over time which has a kind of set value.
Now I haven't taken thermodynamics in about a decade but I think the value was somewhere in the range of 12 hours."

My stick welder can melt and join metals over the span of a single second for several hundred joules of energy, but I get the feeling that's not what you were talking about.
What criver neglects to specify is the amount of material that is "raise the temperature by 30K Kelvin over 1 second" A small medical-grade surgical laser can do that for amounts of material in the milligram range. To raise the temperature of something on the scale of a tank (40-70 mt) by 30K Kelvin over a second would require something nuke-like. A REALLY big one, and even then, it would have uneven energy absorption, like heating a bowl of frozen mashed potato in the microwave. To make sure the whole thing gets it's temperature raised by a minimum of 30K Kelvin a second, it might require something on the scale of the entire radiative output of the sun for a whole second.
I think criver's just throwing things out there without really understanding what he's saying.

 

[SlurpNoodle]

@Gambier Bay
"@criver Out of curiosity do you know how long it would take for lightning to continuously strike at the amperage and voltage a typical bolt of lightning measured at to melt metal? To say nothing of the energy dissipation over time which has a kind of set value.
Now I haven't taken thermodynamics in about a decade but I think the value was somewhere in the range of 12 hours."

My stick welder can melt and join metals over the span of a single second for several hundred joules of energy, but I get the feeling that's not what you were talking about.
What criver neglects to specify is the amount of material that is "raise the temperature by 30K Kelvin over 1 second" A small medical-grade surgical laser can do that for amounts of material in the milligram range. To raise the temperature of something on the scale of a tank (40-70 mt) by 30K Kelvin over a second would require something nuke-like. A REALLY big one, and even then, it would have uneven energy absorption, like heating a bowl of frozen mashed potato in the microwave. To make sure the whole thing gets it's temperature raised by a minimum of 30K Kelvin a second, it might require something on the scale of the entire radiative output of the sun for a whole second.
I think criver's just throwing things out there without really understanding what he's saying.

 

[SlurpNoodle]

@Kaiser92
"I'm not an expert on this, how is war more expensive now?"
Technology and the consideration for the investment in your troops. A US infantryman costs something like $150K USD to train and equip to the point where they are considered ready for the battlefield. The most basic foot soldier. A fighter pilot is estimated at $1.3 Mil.

"I think he know that considering creating tributary, vassal and puppet state is a staple in China during his time"
I'm not talking about tributary, vassal or puppet states. I'm talking about a foreign government that is willing to call a halt to the war and normalize relations again, because modern wars are expensive. A tributary, vassal or puppet state, historically, doesn't work for long and tends to become hostile again very quickly.

"I think you underestimate China's cultural diversity."
I don't think you understand China's concept of "cultural diversity." It's just them bragging about how many cultures they've absorbed. There is no cultural diversity in China, all the cultures absorbed into China are forced to become culturally Han Chinese or face persecution. But I digress. My intention wasn't to single out China specifically.

"Bruh I think you missed the point, he said to consider using force as inferior if you can achieve victory by other means (plotting, bribery, political marriage, big stick diplomacy, etc...).
China was huge even back then so direct rule is quite difficult to achieve so creating a puppet is almost a given.
Outbreak Company is a good example of soft power war yo~"
I'm just going by what you cited, not the entire litany of Sun Tzu's art of war. Again, I'm not talking about puppet governments. I personally found Outbreak Company to be a quirky story about culture exchange. If you are speaking about "soft power" in the contemporary Chinese sense, I'd have to disagree. The japanese at some points had to question whether what they planned to do would hurt the local culture. You won't get that consideration from Chinese interpretation of "soft power".

The problem with Sun Tsu's passage you cited is that it's too binary. There's nothing there that deals with diplomacy, only how to deal with enemies, how to treat everyone like an enemy. It gives me better insight into their aims and goals

 

[criver]

@SlurpNoodle Look up the maximum temperature that a lightning can produce. Yes, it is higher than the temperature of the surface of the Sun. Provided that you can sustain that lightning you can vaporise metals. Look up the boiling point of metals - there is no material you use in your tanks that will not get vaporised at such a temperature over the span of a second.
You also mistyped Gambier's name - you didn't actually ping him.

 

[elhessan]

@CheerTheDead yeah, that's why i said you need something similar to panzerfaust or RPG 7 to deal with older generation tanks or WW II tanks. HEAT weapons are still effective against them. But then again, to fire continuous fireball that can generate enough heat so that the inside will be affected (we're talking about the heat that can make the inside of 2-3 inches steel to be affected)... You need lots of them concentrated on one tank. But against whole squad of tanks? They will be exhausted, not to mention, the range which the tank capable of vs the casting range, and the duress of under heavy fire with loud noises, they will be lucky if they can immobilized 2 T-90 in the last page..

@themanj yeah, but they need insane explosion spell. Maybe like a bundle of C4 stick between the turret and the hull to separate them. This is something that not even AT-4 capable of doing.

 

[SlurpNoodle]

@criver
"Look up the maximum temperature that a lightning can produce. Yes, it is higher than the temperature of the surface of the Sun. Provided that you can sustain that lightning you can vaporise metals. Look up the boiling point of metals - there is no material you use in your tanks that will not get vaporised at such a temperature over the span of a second.
You also mistyped Gambier's name - you didn't actually ping him."

I think you're confusing temperature with energy yields. You can generate 6000K plasma in a microwave oven, but it's not a very useful weapon on a tank's scale because of the energy yield being too low to do more than maybe vaporize some paint or a few milligrams of the metal underneath it. Natural lightning is some powerful stuff, not because of the temperatures they can get to, but because of their energy yield. But it's still not on a scale to cause structural harm to a tank. Heck, more than half the people who get struck by lightning survive. Look at how many commercial and military aircraft get struck by lightning every year. Those fragile flying machines made of low melting temperature aluminum. Thanks for letting me know I mispelled Gambier's name, I'll go correct it.

 

[SlurpNoodle]

@elhessan
"@themanj yeah, but they need insane explosion spell. Maybe like a bundle of C4 stick between the turret and the hull to separate them. This is something that not even AT-4 capable of doing."

Or a mage can be like Leilei from Gate and learn how to implement the Munroe Effect in her spells.

 

[Kaiser92]

@SlurpNoodle

Technology and the consideration for the investment in your troops. A US infantryman costs something like $150K USD to train and equip to the point where they are considered ready for the battlefield. The most basic foot soldier. A fighter pilot is estimated at $1.3 Mil.

But how expensive is it in term of GDP? How much did they use to spend on infantry's equipment back in the day?

I'm not talking about tributary, vassal or puppet states. I'm talking about a foreign government that is willing to call a halt to the war and normalize relations again, because modern wars are expensive.

The objective in "big boy" war is to affect a change in political leadership on the other side to one that is less hostile to your own.

Hit them hard and install a different government that is friendlier to your own.

Oh you meant what the US did with the Axis after WW2? I don't think this Japan can do what the US did back then though, not even close.

A tributary, vassal or puppet state, historically, doesn't work for long and tends to become hostile again very quickly.

Source? Vietnam and Korea stayed as China's tributary for quite a long time, I think > 1000 yrs.

I don't think you understand China's concept of "cultural diversity." It's just them bragging about how many cultures they've absorbed. There is no cultural diversity in China, all the cultures absorbed into China are forced to become culturally Han Chinese or face persecution. But I digress. My intention wasn't to single out China specifically.

Lol imma disagree, I know they are bad, but they are not THAT bad, especially in the past.

I'm just going by what you cited, not the entire litany of Sun Tzu's art of war.

Why take thing outta context?

The japanese at some points had to question whether what they planned to do would hurt the local culture.

Hurting local culture is too far but killing thousands of ppl isn't???

You won't get that consideration from Chinese interpretation of "soft power".

Bruh I just quoted a Chinese guy on how to win war, I don't even like the CPC!

The problem with Sun Tsu's passage you cited is that it's too binary. There's nothing there that deals with diplomacy,

Bruh it's literally "supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." Shit is as generic as you can say, do whatever you can before resorting to force.

only how to deal with enemies, how to treat everyone like an enemy.

The first line even read: "In the practical art of war"...

 

[Needhydra]

@criver you are making the mistake of air temp = steel temp. Air is a very good insulator so it heats up more when electricity passes through it.

The tanks they are using are Type-90s with composite armor 320mm of thickness so lets say a third or 110mm or 11cm is steel and .5m or 50cm wide cheek and tall(the flat not moving bit). For a cross section area 2500cm2 or 0.25m2 with a volume of 27500 cm3 or 0.0275m3 (this is melting through the armor)

Let us assume this is MIL-A-46100 steel which is used stop hyper-velocity projectiles like a tank round. This is Iron/Chromium/Molybdenum alloy and can say it has a density of 7.78g/cm3
Iron/Chromium/Molybdenum alloy on my chart says it has a resistivity of 49.9µΩcm or 4.99*10^-7Ωm at 20°C

Iron/Chromium/Molybdenum does not have a melting point listed(I wonder why ) so lets go with Iron/Molybdenum temp of 1452°C and round it to 1450°C.
Specific heat is not listed(I wonder why ) but iron based steel tend to be about 500J/°K/kg or 0.5j/°C/g/

Let us do some math
There will be (27500cm3)(7.78g/cm3) = 213950g or 213.95kg of steel that needs to be melted.

The steel's resistance is resistivity * distance / cross-sectional area
(14.99*10^-7 Ωm)(.11 m)/(.25 m2) = 6.5956×10^-7 Ω or 0.65956 µΩ

I will be nice and say the lightning will get is peak current of 400kA from positive lightning which is about 5% of lightning instead of the more common 30kA average which can peak up to 120kA of the other 95%. We will also say the main stroke aka the part that is most powerful takes 50ms as no one agrees but 50 is in the middle. The follow up strokes require a lot less power as plasma is far more conductive than air.

Positive
(400 kA)²(0.65956 µΩ) = 0.10553 MW
(0.10553 MW)(1 ms) = 0.10553 kJ

Negative peak
(120 kA)²(0.65956 µΩ) = 0.00949766 MW
(0.00949766 MW)(1 ms) = 0.00949766 kJ

Negative Average
(30kA)²(0.65956 µΩ) = 0.000593604 MW
(0.000593604 MW)(1 ms) = 0.000593604 kJ

so to find out how long it will take to melt it we need to do some algebra making (power/(Specific heat * mass)=temperature rose)

Positive
(0.10553 kJ)/((0.5j/°C/g)(213950g))= 9.86×10^-4 °C (Celsius degrees difference)
(1450°C)/(9.86×10^-4 °C) = 1471 seconds or 24.5 minutes

Negative peak
(0.00949766 kJ)/((0.5j/°C/g)(213950g))= 9.86×10^-4 °C (Celsius degrees difference)
(1450°C)/(8.88×10^-5) = 16329 seconds or 4 hours and 32 minutes rounded

Negative Average
(0.000593604 kJ)/((0.5j/°C/g)(213950g))= 5.55×10^-6 °C (Celsius degrees difference)
(1450°C)/5.55×10^-6 °C = 261261 seconds or 3 days 34 minutes rounded

Calculating amount of lightning strikes is pointless just multiply the seconds by 20

@GambierBay said 12 hours because that is the time it takes a industrial electric furnace to melt tonnes(1000 Kg) of steel (in the tonnes range) and you want to do it with a lightning bolt.

 

[Needhydra]

@SlurpNoodle read my other post lighting is mostly dangerous to infantry as it will stop you heart in a aoe from the strike but a vehicle will protect you because of the metal shell acting like a Faraday Cage.(open top can get you killed)

 

[jessiej]

ive missed this... thanks for the TL.

 

[themanj]

@elhessan
the at-4 ehhh..... the eplosive mass on a rocket of an at4 isn't all that much.... you would rather have a carl gustav or a sack of explosives
@SlurpNoodle
i guess... but still, for the most part, the armor is effectively more than 500mm of steel thick...