Taiga of Genesis - Ch. 109 - Recapruting The Western Fortress

[MangaDex]

 

[rudezki]

Thanks for the translations! You guys are awesome!

 

[Kryloth]

Thanks for the mass release man, been a while i was starting to miss this

 

[Kanade0021]

Thanks for the mass release!!

 

[77BLc9JwJGpLVARkamJx]

Thanks for the chapters, man... they seems to be beaten up quite easily too.

 

[nclsdv]

Reminder: This is the start of the civilization. If women don't fight for power now, then patriarchal order will start to seep in with every battle that the men win. We had a powerful female warrior with Tiari, but the Japanese women are just borderline useless. They even made Tiari doubt her own strength. Now once again, one is lying uselessly in labor, while another one is grooming dogs and apologizing left and right. If this is real life, they'd be the ones causing women to be oppressed by men for the next 40,000 years.

 

[2hot4you]

They are not oppressed, they are fulfulling their own duties

 

[AbuHajaar]

BISMILLAH

 

[drfreeman12]

I'm still baffled at how literal WWII soldiers are beaten by teenagers from a peaceful era and no combat training, even if they are from the future, the soldiers should have gotten improvised weapon training for extreme circumstances lmao.

 

[diseasedrobot]

I think its due to the self righteous arrogance a race supremacist not having any enemies that matched their wits or battle prowess for at least 50-60 years. Looks like they focused on expanding as fast as possible and building bigger numbers of people. Although the fact that they have no iron weapons or even arrows or shields is indeed weird. Maybe in the future we see the group of German soldiers fall to infighting amongst each other.

Alas I don't expect logical turn of events from the author Mori Kouji as he tends to handwave plotholes but his works are still fun to read with good art.

 

[Thank]

Reminder: This is the start of the civilization. If women don't fight for power now, then patriarchal order will start to seep in with every battle that the men win. We had a powerful female warrior with Tiari, but the Japanese women are just borderline useless. They even made Tiari doubt her own strength. Now once again, one is lying uselessly in labor, while another one is grooming dogs and apologizing left and right. If this is real life, they'd be the ones causing women to be oppressed by men for the next 40,000 years.

I don't blame them for responding to things in the manner that they have. Death is a real possibility; not everyone is resilient enough to handle that pressure and make themselves productive. Breeding dogs is a hell of a lot more useful than doing nothing. And pregnancy is going to make any woman less able, particularly towards the latter stages.

Human rights and laws all come after the dust settles and stability can be garnered. Otherwise, you're too busy trying to survive to be able to think about such luxuries (particularly during warfare). Taiga seems like a reasonable guy. I'm sure rights are something he cares about. Especially when in the face of this racist group he is up against.

 

[nclsdv]

not everyone is resilient enough to handle that pressure and make themselves productive. Breeding dogs is a hell of a lot more useful than doing nothing. And pregnancy is going to make any woman less able, particularly towards the latter stages.

You're applying normal logic, assuming everything happens according to actual history. No, this is a group of modern people. The women know about the patriarchal state of the world and its negative effects on women. The group already started to alter history with all their technological advancements, why societal structure is any different? Why technology development can be fast-forwarded, but social development can't? We all know where this hunter-gatherer division of labor leads. We're living in it.

Your argument of "breeding dogs useful" doesn't matter when it's power structure in question. Human physical strength is insignificant, we all know that. Compared to animals, our raw strength means nothing. However, a man or a woman piloting a tank is equally destructive - and in front of its canon, gender means nothing. There's nothing stopping the women from creating modernistic tools and weapons to go to war - nothing but themselves. Especially in this setting, where these women can-and-are setting the foundation for all women's position in the human civilization. It's okay if they aren't aware of their pivotal role, but they are. They are modern people, after all (history students, to boot).

Taiga seems like a reasonable guy. I'm sure rights are something he cares about.

Again, history has already proven that it's ridiculous to put all your hope (and the future of an entire gender) onto one person. Monarchy and feudalism have already failed. We all know how the right shape of society is supposed to look like. There's no logical reason to regress all the progress human have made in ruling and governing, just because they're in the wrong period in time. They are modern people, they are already altering the progression of science, warfare, agriculture, etc., so there's no reason to skip altering governing and social structure.

 

[ale_city]

Reminder: This is the start of the civilization. If women don't fight for power now, then patriarchal order will start to seep in with every battle that the men win. We had a powerful female warrior with Tiari, but the Japanese women are just borderline useless. They even made Tiari doubt her own strength. Now once again, one is lying uselessly in labor, while another one is grooming dogs and apologizing left and right. If this is real life, they'd be the ones causing women to be oppressed by men for the next 40,000 years.

I don't think grooming dogs is a bad position, I would say it is an important position to domesticate wolves, remember these are wolf cubs, Chihiro is finally getting a central role in the way this "country" is going to work. meanwhile can we really complain about Yuka? she is a victim, she is not "uselessly in labour" she is in labour because she was raped and because an abortion would be extremely risky in these circumstances. If we get into what the characters would think, can't blame them, I hope the role of women improves here too, but I don't see it completely lost, after all we had Ren be useless and a coward until not long ago.

I would be more concerned about Rikako, who has basically faded into the background as a character. Riku has barely appeared but we know he is doing his work as a smith, I can't remember Rikako having a role yet. My concern is how long the author took to give Chihiro a role, he gave Ren one considerably earlier. I hope when Yuka gives birth her role becomes clear and improves, and I hope Rikako comes back to participate in the story.

 

[Thank]

You're applying normal logic, assuming everything happens according to actual history. No, this is a group of modern people. The women know about the patriarchal state of the world and its negative effects on women. The group already started to alter history with all their technological advancements, why societal structure is any different? Why technology development can be fast-forwarded, but social development can't? We all know where this hunter-gatherer division of labor leads. We're living in it.

My point is as follows: if the principle concern is survival, it will remain so until there is time to breathe and establish a social order. While the women in this story are history students, they are first and foremost people concerned with their survival, not the potentiality of a patriarchy. With this, I place their actions into perspective. The technological advancements made in the narrative have been directed toward warfare and survival (as that is the chief concern). With time and resources a social order can be established.

That aside, even if the women had more influence in the group (and/or time for consideration) I would not move forward with the supposition that they believe a patriarchy to be an eventuality of the group they are a part of. Perhaps they hold different beliefs about the future of the group. It's important to frame their actions with this thought in mind.

Your argument of "breeding dogs useful" doesn't matter when it's power structure in question. Human physical strength is insignificant, we all know that. Compared to animals, our raw strength means nothing. However, a man or a woman piloting a tank is equally destructive - and in front of its canon, gender means nothing.

Human strength is not insignificant. Yes, we have created devices that can equalize the playing field against stronger opponents. But the likelihood of a few history students being able to create sophisticated weaponry to equalize the playing field is highly unlikely. Bows, arrows, swords, etc. all require strength and skill to use. Since these are the weapons of the time, human strength becomes important. Although these women could take up arms, they would still be reliant upon human strength. Utilizing animals to fight, however, is a way to tap into a different kind of strength. Thus, I don't think breeding animals to be useless at all.

There is also the question of time. How long would it take to make these weapons? How much would it take in terms of resources, cooperation, and effort? This would delay the utilization of such weaponry significantly.

There's nothing stopping the women from creating modernistic tools and weapons to go to war - nothing but themselves. Especially in this setting, where these women can-and-are setting the foundation for all women's position in the human civilization. It's okay if they aren't aware of their pivotal role, but they are. They are modern people, after all (history students, to boot).

Deep knowledge is an inhibiting factor. I can know about a tank but I can't create one. And even if we dial it back to explosives or a simple gun, that's still complex weaponry. It requires an understanding of the mechanisms that move it to function, and the principles of designing/crafting it.

Again, history has already proven that it's ridiculous to put all your hope (and the future of an entire gender) onto one person. Monarchy and feudalism have already failed. We all know how the right shape of society is supposed to look like. There's no logical reason to regress all the progress human have made in ruling and governing, just because they're in the wrong period in time. They are modern people, they are already altering the progression of science, warfare, agriculture, etc., so there's no reason to skip altering governing and social structure.

I'm not suggesting monarchy or feudalism to be ideal systems of governance. I simply understand that Taiga is the one in a position of leadership. The people respond to him and his commands (because they respect him), and that's why his input would be necessary. The women of his group can convene with him regarding organizing a social structure (and their place in it). Given his personality, I believe he would listen to them and move forward after thinking and discussion. Establishing a social order is quite a challenge. We also have to keep ethnocentrism in mind. Recall that a majority of people in their group have their own way of life. Altering that way of life can create conflict. Consequently, working with these people becomes essential. Do Taiga and his group have the right to impose their values and beliefs on the group if the group refuses those values/beliefs? I'm curious to get your opinion on the morality of imposing one's beliefs on other cultures if they are not receptive to it.

I say all of this respectfully. I understand your concerns but I am also trying to frame everything around likelihoods. Have a good one.

 

[ale_city]

I'm still baffled at how literal WWII soldiers are beaten by teenagers from a peaceful era and no combat training, even if they are from the future, the soldiers should have gotten improvised weapon training for extreme circumstances lmao.

They are not teenagers, they are young adults in their early 20s, about the same age the nazi soldiers were when they arrived to the "past".

I think a difference is that what you had with the nazi soldiers were a group of soldiers but they were not in leadership positions except for one of them who barely got the low rank of liutenant (through nepotism if I remember correctly) and was accused of having poor strategic skills (Klaus, the current "king" of the Neanderthals). Meanwhile our group of protagonists are from a peaceful era, but the advantage they have is education, they were all university/college students involved in humanities, where they have knowledge of anthropology, sociology, history and archaeology from which they draw to plan ahead and from which they have built their skills.

WWII soldiers would not have knowledge of how to perform metalurgy with crude materials for example, they have relied on basic military strategy such as vantage points and supply lines, what they could do with numbers but no technology, the only advanced weapons being those they brought with them.

 

[nclsdv]

if the principle concern is survival, it will remain so until there is time to breathe and establish a social order. While the women in this story are history students, they are first and foremost people concerned with their survival, not the potentiality of a patriarchy.

How do you argue "their principle concern is survival", when there's a professionally trained army, a safe manufacturing base, a supply line for the army, etc. These people aren't all hunting for their next meal. They've already started to form clear division in labor - which in time, will solidify into caste, class, social prestige, etc. If these women continue to only do the things they used to do in their old patriarchal society, then this newly born civilization will turn into a patriarchal one, and much faster than actual history, too. I don't have to guess, this is how actual history played out.

even if the women had more influence in the group (and/or time for consideration) I would not move forward with the supposition that they believe a patriarchy to be an eventuality of the group they are a part of. Perhaps they hold different beliefs about the future of the group. It's important to frame their actions with this thought in mind.

These people are acting only under the directives of one mind - the author's. Although the author's a man, I don't simply assume his natural lean towards patriarchal tendency based solely on his gender. No, I judge his preference based on all the tiny details he's been presenting in the story thus far - how female characters are portrayed, how they acted, what they did and said - and the conclusion is clear: It's going for patriarchal society, with a side of belittling women at that (why are these women so incapable???).

The likelihood of a few history students being able to create sophisticated weaponry to equalize the playing field is highly unlikely. Bows, arrows, swords, etc. all require strength and skill to use. Since these are the weapons of the time, human strength becomes important. Although these women could take up arms, they would still be reliant upon human strength. Utilizing animals to fight, however, is a way to tap into a different kind of strength. Thus, I don't think breeding animals to be useless at all.
There is also the question of time. How long would it take to make these weapons? How much would it take in terms of resources, cooperation, and effort? This would delay the utilization of such weaponry significantly.
Deep knowledge is an inhibiting factor. I can know about a tank but I can't create one. And even if we dial it back to explosives or a simple gun, that's still complex weaponry. It requires an understanding of the mechanisms that move it to function, and the principles of designing/crafting it.

A few history students vs. absolute cavemen. The gap in knowledge is akin to god vs. ants. I'll give you a chance to reincarnate only back 10-20 years (not 3.3m years like these characters), and you'd likely be the richest man on Earth by now, making the smartphone before Apple. Why would you think that modern human's imagination be limited to archaic weaponry such as bows, arrows and swords? Any modern human knows that gun is the great equalizer. You say they can't make intricate weapons, sure. So no revolver, no chain fed, magazine fed, double-action, automatic rifles then. But even a simple lever-action rifle like the Germans, hell, a matchlock, is enough to send all these cavemen with their insignificant human strength to death. Not to mention, we modern human know that the true WMD is bio-weapon. Brew some poison and suddenly a woman is every bit as capable a warrior as a man. Don't say that they can't, they've already created metallurgy.

I'm not suggesting monarchy or feudalism to be ideal systems of governance. I simply understand that Taiga is the one in a position of leadership. The people respond to him and his commands (because they respect him), and that's why his input would be necessary.

Who brought the concept of "king" to these people? Was it Taiga, or any person in the tribe? No, it's the Nazi German, who lived some 70 years ago, serving under their king-like Führer figure. And can you guess why these modern Japanese didn't immediately reject that idea being adopted into their new civ, even though they have enough capable men and women to form a small congress? Yes, because the author's propensity for a male absolute ruler. If this is just to appease the shounen demography, then sure, go ahead. But this is clearly a seinen series, so the fantasy fulfilling aspect of this decision is much harder to justify. It's more likely that the author is just inherently sexist, probably without even being aware of it. Again, patriarchal society's effect at play here.

Now, tell me, why do "people respond to him and his commands"? Why do they "respect him"? Was it because he's so much better at ruling, or his vast amount of knowledge unrivalled by any other of his group? No, because he fought like a cavemen amongst cavemen, so cavemen respected him. Are cavemen right? No, they're wrong. Their thoughts and ideals are primitive. It's not like the medieval and early modern eras when Europe sailed around to "enlighten lesser civilizations". This is actual cavemen we're talking about. Regardless, it only serves to further justify my opinion - the women are at the pivotal moment of changing their gender's image, position and strength in history, and since they're modern people, they, logically, should've been very, acutely, aware of it. The fact that they aren't aware and not fighting, is simply the author's oversight caused by being so used to living with patriarchal standards. He created uncompelling characters, plain and simple.

The women of his group can convene with him regarding organizing a social structure (and their place in it). Given his personality, I believe he would listen to them and move forward after thinking and discussion. Establishing a social order is quite a challenge.

Do you think having to convene, plead and justify your entire gender's power with a representative of another gender is something that looks normal? To even suggest such a thing... Have we readers also regressed as well?

We also have to keep ethnocentrism in mind. Recall that a majority of people in their group have their own way of life. Altering that way of life can create conflict. Consequently, working with these people becomes essential. Do Taiga and his group have the right to impose their values and beliefs on the group if the group refuses those values/beliefs? I'm curious to get your opinion on the morality of imposing one's beliefs on other cultures if they are not receptive to it.

Remind me again who spread their culturally inappropriate Japanese language, way of thinking, mannerism, governing structure, technologies, clothing, etc. with these "ethnocentric" cavemen in the first place? Do they currently live in cavemen-invented brick houses©? Are they building cavemen-patented stone forts© and palisade walls©?

You're not dealing with cultured people from the bronze age, so your argument of "imposing one's belief's on other 'cultures' if they're not receptive to it" is very weak when the "culture" in discussion is of freshly appeared Homo sapiens, fighting for their hole-in-the-mountain with Neanderthals.

 

[nclsdv]

I don't think grooming dogs is a bad position, I would say it is an important position to domesticate wolves, remember these are wolf cubs, Chihiro is finally getting a central role in the way this "country" is going to work. meanwhile can we really complain about Yuka? she is a victim, she is not "uselessly in labour" she is in labour because she was raped and because an abortion would be extremely risky in these circumstances. If we get into what the characters would think, can't blame them, I hope the role of women improves here too, but I don't see it completely lost, after all we had Ren be useless and a coward until not long ago.

I think I've already answered most of your points in the previous reply to another person. Don't get me wrong as misogynist or victim blaming. I said "uselessly in labor" as in - is she useless to the civ, and is she in labor? That is, why doesn't she try to participate in anything else she could do, even with labor status? Rather, she'd lie down, blaming the world for treating her unfairly, and not realizing she's being very detrimental to all women's future?

 

[ale_city]

I think I've already answered most of your points in the previous reply to another person. Don't get me wrong as misogynist or victim blaming. I said "uselessly in labor" as in - is she useless to the civ, and is she in labor? That is, why doesn't she try to participate in anything else she could do, even with labor status? Rather, she'd lie down, blaming the world for treating her unfairly, and not realizing she's being very detrimental to all women's future?

sorry I did not read your previous reply carefully enough. But I will just say that, can't really ask much to a pregnant woman, specially in the later stages of pregnancy. Pregnancy is physically and mentally tiring, I would say we should really wait after she gives birth to see what develops, she is not blaming the world or being inactive by choice to "lay down". There is still plenty of time for the civilization to develop, if you look at it these are just a few months, very important formative months, but the societal structure is still not developed and there is still plenty of time.

At the end of the day it will be more the author's writing decision, which we can criticise, as I said for example I am more concerned about how Rikako has basically faded into the absolute background of the story to the point she has barely any appearances and very little dialogue. But really I think you are exaggerating this impact in the role of women from a society that has barely had time to even be considered a new thing, things are falling into place and I hope the author takes that opportunity to bring up the role of women, because earlier on in the manga there were some mentions of the women of the future wanting to do something usefull just like the men had, before they all had found their roles, but the writing has only so far given Chihiro a role (which again I disagree with you I think training wolves is important and shouldn't be seen as a lowly role, specially in a society that has not tamed animals yet).

 

[2hot4you]

why are you here arguing about woman rights in a survival manga against caveman and nazi soldiers man

 

[nclsdv]

why are you here arguing about woman rights in a survival manga against caveman and nazi soldiers man

I saw that @Thank dude that tried to poke holes in my logic (and have been real quiet since my reply dropped) reacted to you with a laugh. Must've been real salty since I pointed out how weak all his arguments were. Hey @Thank, have you realized the errors of your way yet?

And now, to you: I argue because I don't want to see another n-th series that downplay women. I don't want young readers to mistakenly think this is a normal way to depict and regard women.