Tenmaku no Jaadugar - Vol. 4 Ch. 25

[lynmychii]

Muslims: Steal a 50 camel trade caravan laden with gold and silks

Also Muslims: Execute a diplomat who came to find out what happened to said caravan and shave the beards of the others before beating them and sending them back

Still Muslims: Why are these barbarians attacking us? We did nothing wrong uwu.

Historically, this series of incidents leads to the utter destruction and collapse of the Khwarazmian Empire. They brought war upon themselves and blame anyone but themselves. Pretty typical of them.

Blaming all Muslims for the mistakes of Khwarazmian rulers—just bcs of a manga—is as absurd as blaming citizens for a corrupt government. For someone preaching about maturity, even today's kids have better manners than you. Check your xenophobia and keep the comments respectful.

 

[feignedremoteness]

Okay Fatima

Her misplaced hate, her misplaced logic, her calling a matter of faith science, all wrong. All so very stupid.

I think this misunderstands what “science” was during this time.
I hope most people are familiar enough with the primacy of heliocentrism during this time to know that Fatima IS agreeing with “scientific consensus” here?
there also wasn’t our modern separation of “faith” and “science” back then. people tried to come up with logical philosophies for how the world works, and that included metaphysical concepts. learned people didn’t “pick an area of study” the way they do today, a person writing treatises on medicine might also write about the soul and what role it played in different diseases. that WAS science, or rather “natural philosophy.” Fatima exists in a world where the greatest scientists’ theories about the way things work WOULD include “the will of God” as a logical factor to be considered. even more so in the Islamic world where many classical Greek and Roman texts were better preserved.

 

[judasmartel]

snip

Except I am pretty sure scientific consensus in this story's time leaned towards geocentrism, and it wasn't until over 600 years later that heliocentrism was finally accepted.

Also, just to clear things up, didn't Muhammad leave for Nishapur because he found the religious instruction in Tus to be too rigid and he wanted to learn more science?

 

[benshapiro]

That tl note got me laughing so hard lmao

 

[Panino]

Muslims: Steal a 50 camel trade caravan laden with gold and silks

Also Muslims: Execute a diplomat who came to find out what happened to said caravan and shave the beards of the others before beating them and sending them back

Still Muslims: Why are these barbarians attacking us? We did nothing wrong uwu.

Historically, this series of incidents leads to the utter destruction and collapse of the Khwarazmian Empire. They brought war upon themselves and blame anyone but themselves. Pretty typical of them.

See, the chagatian rapist logic?
It was "muslims", ALL MUSLIMS.
Same way that also ALL CHINESE, ALL HUNGARIANS, and so on. If one person from some group breaks decorum them EVERYONE else of that group did it with their own hands and needs to be put to death, right?

 

[Panino]

Ogedei follows Genghis Khan's belief in unity above all.

By that time the Mongol were already operating under the logic of "Universal Rule", right?
Genghis declared that the heavens had decided that the mongol should rule the whole world, so everyone was already under mongol rule. Everyone that didn't follow was a "rebel".

Ogudei only saw the future while Fatima and Toregene was stuck in the past and the Merkit tribe in Toregene's backstory represent their beliefs quite well.

I don't that it's "stuck in the past".
Why the future needs to be mongol? It doesn't. Specially for someone like Sitara, her world was already good enough, pacific enough, prosperous enough and getting better every day. Why they needed the mongol? The mongol only destroyed and then took the survivors to rebuild what they destroyed.

I think this misunderstands what “science” was during this time.
I hope most people are familiar enough with the primacy of heliocentrism during this time to know that Fatima IS agreeing with “scientific consensus” here?

Fatima's knowledge is also very limited, isn't it?
She may know about Biruni, but what else more?

 

[wotta57]

As strange as it is to say, I agree with Ogedei more than Sitara and Toregene.

Yes Sitara and Toregene are victims of the Mongol conquests and I sympathize with their anger. But in terms of what's actually being said, I think Ogedei has the better point. The ones who create empires are those like Ogedei and Sorghaghtani: they look towards the future and want to build institutions that will outlive them. Destroying an empire's future for the sake of the past isn't worth it.

And sure, the Mongols are actively invading other nations and trampling upon countless people just trying to live their lives. From that angle, yeah you could definitely say that Ogedei is a hypocrite. The problem is that Sitara and Toregene aren't fighting to prevent future injustice; they're fighting for personal revenge. The Mongol Empire isn't "good", but Sitara and Toregene want to prevent it from becoming good. That's where their error lies.

I think that's a testament to this story's character writing. You can understand where everyone's coming from, yet nobody is perfectly in the right either.

 

[Grimmycoffee]

Thank you for the chapter!

You're super fast, huh. Take care, be careful not to burn yourself out.

Last page

Unless the Jp text can be translated to Wise, I'm not convinced by the explanation.

At the very least to me, it's because she's pretty smart that saying she's not smart is good. It reveals that she's not even confident about her own strength.

If it can, I have no complain. The story did call her wise too back in chapter 6.

(even if that wisdom can technically be written off as "I read a story with saying immortality is bad, therefore I believe it is bad")

Also, just to clear things up, didn't Muhammad leave for Nishapur because he found the religious instruction in Tus to be too rigid and he wanted to learn more science?

Kinda, yeah.

Although in chapter 1, his complain is more about the way his teacher basically refuse to answer his questions.

I am also not sure what he means exactly by theology as "imitate that which was already taught" in chapter 2, and how theology is taught and both mixed and separated from science in the past and this manga's world.

 

[Gen.Ghis]

As strange as it is to say, I agree with Ogedei more than Sitara and Toregene.

Yes Sitara and Toregene are victims of the Mongol conquests and I sympathize with their anger. But in terms of what's actually being said, I think Ogedei has the better point. The ones who create empires are those like Ogedei and Sorghaghtani: they look towards the future and want to build institutions that will outlive them. Destroying an empire's future for the sake of the past isn't worth it.

And sure, the Mongols are actively invading other nations and trampling upon countless people just trying to live their lives. From that angle, yeah you could definitely say that Ogedei is a hypocrite. The problem is that Sitara and Toregene aren't fighting to prevent future injustice; they're fighting for personal revenge. The Mongol Empire isn't "good", but Sitara and Toregene want to prevent it from becoming good. That's where their error lies.

I think that's a testament to this story's character writing. You can understand where everyone's coming from, yet nobody is perfectly in the right either.

Fatima and Toregene are similar to the character of Lady Kaede in Akira Kurosawa's Ran film, a woman married to one of the heirs of the Ichimonji Clan,plotting to destroy the clan from within out of revenge due to how her clan was defeated and destroyed by the current Ichimonji leader Hidetora.

While her motives are understandable, her actions result in the deaths of countless innocents and the fires of war continuing as a result of her manipulations destroy the clan and thus she is undeniably a villian.

Fatima and Toregene give off similar villainous vibes and their actual roles and actions in history confirm what they will become. Their plans to destroy the Mongol Empire from within will undoubtly kill as many innocents just as their targets of revenge have done to them.

 

[v.roderick]

See, the chagatian rapist logic?
It was "muslims", ALL MUSLIMS.
Same way that also ALL CHINESE, ALL HUNGARIANS, and so on. If one person from some group breaks decorum them EVERYONE else of that group did it with their own hands and needs to be put to death, right?

Nah, Muslims do this repeatedly throughout history, decry any who hold them accountable (like you) and bandwagon their innocence.

Also, I never said all Muslims, that's you putting words in my mouth because you know that your argument doesn't hold water unless you obfuscate and lie.

Making false equivalence of rape (non antagonist victim) to repercussions for actions on a state level (victim was antagonist) is bullshit and you know it.

Fuck you, the kingdom high on its own farts ended up choking to death on them. Good riddance.

 

[v.roderick]

Blaming all Muslims for the mistakes of Khwarazmian rulers—just bcs of a manga—is as absurd as blaming citizens for a corrupt government. For someone preaching about maturity, even today's kids have better manners than you. Check your xenophobia and keep the comments respectful.

I am no xenophobe, save that for those who don't understand history, religion and ethics.

I have no respect for Islam, their Deen that they live by is fascism codified in all but name and I fucking hate fascists.

Your amoral grandstanding is that of a junkie on a soapbox unable to raise either arm for the rot that has taken root from repeated abuse. Shout all you want, it doesn't change reality one iota.

 

[Panino]

[/QUOTE]

The problem is that Sitara and Toregene aren't fighting to prevent future injustice; they're fighting for personal revenge.

Absolutely Just and Moral.

While her motives are understandable, her actions result in the deaths of countless innocents and the fires of war continuing as a result of her manipulations destroy the clan and thus she is undeniably a villian.

Fatima and Toregene give off similar villainous vibes and their actual roles and actions in history confirm what they will become. Their plans to destroy the Mongol Empire from within will undoubtly kill as many innocents just as their targets of revenge have done to them.

Is those innocents in the civil war are mongols, them they aren't "innocents", they are just the subjects of their vengeance.

 

[kuebulan]

Nah, Muslims do this repeatedly throughout history, decry any who hold them accountable (like you) and bandwagon their innocence.

Also, I never said all Muslims, that's you putting words in my mouth because you know that your argument doesn't hold water unless you obfuscate and lie.

Making false equivalence of rape (non antagonist victim) to repercussions for actions on a state level (victim was antagonist) is bullshit and you know it.

Fuck you, the kingdom high on its own farts ended up choking to death on them. Good riddance.

Sir... This is Wendy's 😐

I don't have any intelligent argument nor the urge to win one, just can you be respectful on a manga forum? You're free to harbor hatred but this is getting too personal and I'm here to read Jaadugar manga discussion lol

Anyway, thank you for the translation! Ogedei's words is so tastefully twisted, it sounds tender but also cruel in how it could fuel her resentment and affect her wellbeing from there on. Whew...

 

[Beregorn]

"Fatima" here already forgotten she was a slave under muslims too, that she read the grand total of 1 (one) book in her life and that Fatima isn't even her name...

 

[feignedremoteness]

Except I am pretty sure scientific consensus in this story's time leaned towards geocentrism, and it wasn't until over 600 years later that heliocentrism was finally accepted.

oh oops, I meant to type “geocentrism.”
also what I wanted to explain isn’t “science and faith were the same thing,” but rather that Sitara bringing up God in a scientific discussion isn’t as out of place as it would seem to us now. back then, there wasn’t our sense of secularism or any idea that mentions of God didn’t belong in discussions of astronomy. I think it’s justified to criticize Sitara and her limited viewpoint, we’re definitely supposed to get a sense of dramatic irony from her expounding the unquestionable correctness of geocentrism to someone she sees as a barbarian. I just don’t want people to think that she’s saying something out of place for her era.
(Sitara also knows that the Mongols don’t have basic geometry calculations. since that was the whole reason Sorgaghtani wanted that book in the first place. the whole edifice of astronomy is based on complex math, so to her it’s like someone that hasn’t taken the first step just casually mentioning their folk tale beliefs as if they were just as legitimate of a “theory” as centuries of carefully calculated observation. she’s essentially here BECAUSE they lack that knowledge and needed Euclid, and now the Khan is casually brushing off that very learning.)

the whole scene is very Themes
(you gotta love Sitara’s on-the-nose name)

 

[deepcom]

Find it very strange people are sympathising with Ögedei, when this series has been very explicit in what an empire is actually built on. Obviously the Mongols (or Khwarazm or Jin) weren't worse than other empires and empires does bring material benefit to some, sponsor arts, establish new connection etc, but this is built on unimaginable brutality, ultimately for the benefit of a small ruling elite: be it Roman, Mongol, British or US.

It certainly is easy to be vowed by the material legacy (especially when this takes place so long ago). But every single stone and statue was drenched in blood of real living people so Ozymanidas could write: "Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

Ögedei's vision isn't elevated, it's aloof.

 

[Gem-Bug]

The ones who create empires are those like Ogedei and Sorghaghtani: they look towards the future and want to build institutions that will outlive them.

But....that's what the empires they invade and destroy are also trying to do? What all human groups are trying to do?

 

[raineight]

"look towards the future and want to build institutions that will outlive them." is a rather whitewashed way of putting "kill or enslave lots of people for profit".

And yeah, the average Arab or Persian leader was probably not morally better than the Mongol leaders, and the story starts with some wealthy woman going out to the market to buy herself a new slave. People still going to be mad at the people who enslaved them and killed their families.

 

[striker345]

"Fatima" here already forgotten she was a slave under muslims too, that she read the grand total of 1 (one) book in her life and that Fatima isn't even her name...

Wasn't she treated more like a member of the family than a slave. She also read more than 1 book you know.

 

[Grimmycoffee]

The funny part is that Ogedei's explanation is closer to the Heliocentric model we used today but Fatima is obviously not in a mood for a debate.

I am still surprised that the Tengrist Mongol model of the universe was somehow closer to the modern heliocentric model than similar ones at the time.

Is it really closer though?

I can't find the myth through a quick google search, but "the northern star as center + stars revolving around it" is practically random compared to our "planets revolving around the stationary sun", right?