The Ancient Magus' Bride - Ch. 96

[derechoes]

I'd be interested in seeing an objective pro/con analysis of the Mantra-assisted version. The claim on the Mantra press release with their partnership with Shueisha is that the error rate is ~1.6% (https://prtimes.jp/main/html/rd/p/000000015.000059295.html). Does that hold up on inspection?

Because if it does, even within a ballpark, that means that:
1) instead of paying a translator hundreds of dollars (or equivalent in JPY) for a translation that may take hours, they can pay pennies for one done with 98%+ accuracy in thirty seconds
2) potentially more time spent on ED/PR, but only a 1.6% (-ish) increase, so the savings from (1) should still vastly outweigh any increased ED/PR costs
3) Savings per title = more titles(?) (yeah...not gonna touch that discussion)

Because all I hear in the complaints here is an allergy to AI without any, you know, facts to back up that feeling. If there are objective analyses showing that Mantra is demonstrably worse that other readily available options, go ahead and spill the tea please

Well, what does an "error rate" even mean in translation in the first place? There's more or less accurate/literal translation but there's no such thing as an objectively correct translation, especially in literature and fiction, and especially in capturing the voices of characters.

 

[duke]

is the translation by AI and re-check + edited by someone that bad though? asking for someone that able to read it in the original language (jp)

because you know, while i appreciate fan translation for doing it for free, i'd like to support the author as well being letting the site have more read count, i adore this series from when it first came out and even now

There are two outcomes to MTL manga, and this is extra tough when it comes to Japanese - which can be complex and filled with nuance that a machine simply cannot parse in many cases.

1) You end up with something like Sumiyoshi Ryo's JINBA - where a character has their name translated incorrectly, even though it includes furigana to show how its meant to be interpreted. This can happen when they don't edit it at all, or when the editors are not skilled themselves (likely when we're cutting corners by using MTL in the first place.)

2) The 'proofreaders' in question, who are indeed proficient with the language, are essentially forced to retranslate the entire thing from scratch to make it readable - but are paid a wage that worse than what it was before because they aren't 'technically' doing the same job. You end up having someone do the entire job anyway but for worse pay, which sounds good to a lot of companies, so it's tough to really parse what their motivation is between getting it done faster or just trying to depress wages.

Neither of these are good or healthy. One results in a bad product, filled with errors, that no enthusiast (your main audience) will want to engage with. The second results in another exploitative practice that prays upon people who take pride in their work and want to come out with a good translation.

I don't believe that this simulpub is replacing the volume releases by Seven Seas in English, so it is possible to support the author and manga without engaging with this. I do think that it deserves a better simulpub treatment than whatever the hell is going on here.

 

[equationx]

There are two outcomes to MTL manga, and this is extra tough when it comes to Japanese - which can be complex and filled with nuance that a machine simply cannot parse in many cases.

1) You end up with something like Sumiyoshi Ryo's JINBA - where a character has their name translated incorrectly, even though it includes furigana to show how its meant to be interpreted. This can happen when they don't edit it at all, or when the editors are not skilled themselves (likely when we're cutting corners by using MTL in the first place.)

2) The 'proofreaders' in question, who are indeed proficient with the language, are essentially forced to retranslate the entire thing from scratch to make it readable - but are paid a wage that worse than what it was before because they aren't 'technically' doing the same job. You end up having someone do the entire job anyway but for worse pay, which sounds good to a lot of companies, so it's tough to really parse what their motivation is between getting it done faster or just trying to depress wages.

Neither of these are good or healthy. One results in a bad product, filled with errors, that no enthusiast (your main audience) will want to engage with. The second results in another exploitative practice that prays upon people who take pride in their work and want to come out with a good translation.

I don't believe that this simulpub is replacing the volume releases by Seven Seas in English, so it is possible to support the author and manga without engaging with this. I do think that it deserves a better simulpub treatment than whatever the hell is going on here.

"but are paid a wage that worse than what it was before because they aren't 'technically' doing the same job"
Sheesh, that's really bad

"so it is possible to support the author and manga without engaging with this"
i will try as much as possible considering how bad it is with the current simulpub translation prospect, especially on the translator

and yeah, point no.1 definitely sucks really bad as well, 'cause i've seen a lot of those and it just stresses me out seeing those

 

[WhimsiCat]

I honestly think rather than it's just being MTL worded differently, i thought it would just lessen the translator works a bit earlier, but with the way you say it, it absolutely make sense

additionally, me saying that i want to support the author, isn't an excuse, i read a lot and i can't exactly buy every single manga i read with budgets that i have, and in my place, it's even hard to get a physical copy, sometimes even it does exist, it's too expensive because its imported, so i just want to support every author whose story i read in ways i can

When I said excuse I didn't mean you, sorry for the confusion, I meant the excuse given by the company about why they're using 'MTL'

The difference between what I consider MTL and just people using tool is if the person is actually 'in charge'.
If someone know the language, use the thing and can double check/fix things quickly, then fine.
But most MTL are just relying on the machine to do the translation with 0 knowledge of the language.

Given how scummy companies can be, I'm not putting my hope on this being the 'good' case of using AI.

 

[Gem-Bug]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1738118307985912165

View attachment 645

Providing some context for why people might be (justifiably) annoyed about this release.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ne...-english-release-using-ai-translation/.205774

Using piracy as an excuse for implementing AI trash is some headass logic

 

[Redice]

Don't care about MTL, I use it for personal use. But my problem here is that I'm too old for this "official site".

 

[Kirin-kun]

Some people here are really full of bullshit.

I regularly see people here praising to high heaven the worst MTL ever that some ESL teen has hacked with Deepl and paint, and then, I see complaints here about how dare the editor do the same, but better (with an actual proofreader).

MTL is bad in every case, whether it's done by a wannabe scanlator or by an official editor.

Stop praising the hacks that don't know a lick of CN/KR/JP and destroy perfectly good series and maybe I'll believe your fake outrage about this.

But I'm pretty sure the main audience of manga on this site don't give a shit about MTL as long as it's "readable".

 

[Hicleric]

Yeah, that's total bullshit. Not even the best translations have an error rate that low.

Hence the question, does that error rate hold up on inspection?

The way people talk about MTL, it should be an easily refutable figure. And I know the MD fora love to pick apart a translation they find off.

Well, what does an "error rate" even mean in translation in the first place?

I am hoping someone actually versed in this area can weigh in, since I aim to just be a casual consumer with just a little knowledge of the mechanisms sausage making beneath.

 

[mdwnettleton]

The translation is... fine. Has a number of weird word choices though. "His adolescent daughter" "the sound of bones hitting bones" overall makes for a less than stellar reading experience, and really tells me that the editing isn't high quality.
I'm still gonna get every volume, but it makes me annoyed that they're trying to do MTL on a series like this one.

Comic Growl is also kinda rough to navigate, in part due to the fact that it's a Japanese website, so the only English is in the pages for Ancient Magus Bride and Ghost and Witch... their only English titles. Which still have a smattering of Japanese in the UI and thumbnails.

Oh, also, they only provide official translations for the most recent chapters of Magus Bride and Ghost and Witch. Which, yeah thanks, I get the whole system they use, and that there's official translations for the previous 95 chapters of Magus Bride, but like, what are we supposed to do for the first 6 chapters of Ghost and Witch? There's no official translation of them. Do we just... pirate them so that we can know what's going on?

But pirating is bad and they're totally using this new technology because it helps them combat piracy (because they definitely need MTL for 2 monthly series when Jump can handle like, 30 weekly just fine), so surely they have a plan for onboarding new fans that never pirated it. Like, otherwise there's no point in providing an English translation is there?

So they've clearly put a lot of effort into providing a "high quality" experience and making their service accessible.

I don't see much worth supporting comic growl for. They don't even have a noteworthy lineup in Japanese outside of Magus Bride. Mag Garden had a bunch of other comics I actually cared about. The Girl From the Other Side, Sketchbook, Skull Dragon, Solte, both spinoffs... Growl has... Bang Dream? Oh, and Ghost and Witch. Hope this online magazine fails.

 

[BraveDude8]

Do we just... pirate them so that we can know what's going on?

As far as I can tell ch5/6 didn't get scanlated and there's no alternative official version, so you are indeed boned. No clue what their plan is with this title.

Anyway, I linked Chapter 7 on MD, it's better than nothing.

 

[r31ya]

There are two outcomes to MTL manga, and this is extra tough when it comes to Japanese - which can be complex and filled with nuance that a machine simply cannot parse in many cases.

1) You end up with something like Sumiyoshi Ryo's JINBA - where a character has their name translated incorrectly, even though it includes furigana to show how its meant to be interpreted. This can happen when they don't edit it at all, or when the editors are not skilled themselves (likely when we're cutting corners by using MTL in the first place.)

2) The 'proofreaders' in question, who are indeed proficient with the language, are essentially forced to retranslate the entire thing from scratch to make it readable - but are paid a wage that worse than what it was before because they aren't 'technically' doing the same job. You end up having someone do the entire job anyway but for worse pay, which sounds good to a lot of companies, so it's tough to really parse what their motivation is between getting it done faster or just trying to depress wages.

Neither of these are good or healthy. One results in a bad product, filled with errors, that no enthusiast (your main audience) will want to engage with. The second results in another exploitative practice that prays upon people who take pride in their work and want to come out with a good translation.

I don't believe that this simulpub is replacing the volume releases by Seven Seas in English, so it is possible to support the author and manga without engaging with this. I do think that it deserves a better simulpub treatment than whatever the hell is going on here.

in any other manga, this kind of method might not be that damaging in quality
but in nuanced, old britain folklore themed story? yeah.

i don't think poorly paid "proofreader" or the ai translate will bother will researching things like "Sleigh beggy" and many other things in the series

 

[mdwnettleton]

I don't believe that this simulpub is replacing the volume releases by Seven Seas in English, so it is possible to support the author and manga without engaging with this.

My biggest worry, is that Seven Seas will use the official English translation, instead of retranslating it. Which like, that's just the obvious course of action.
Then again, the manga industry tends to redraw panels for the volume editions, so doing the same for TL when they have the resources to do so without as strict a deadline... I wouldn't be surprised, but I wouldn't be hopeful.
There's also the issue that, while they said things "remain unchanged" they implied that Seven Seas was not guaranteed to continue publishing it.
Either way, this is being done by the Japanese publishers, who (I would assume), profit off licensing the English publishers. So buying the volumes still supports Growl.

 

[Ju2c0c0]

We're baaaaack hell yeah!!!

 

[Gem-Bug]

My biggest worry, is that Seven Seas will use the official English translation, instead of retranslating it. Which like, that's just the obvious course of action.
Then again, the manga industry tends to redraw panels for the volume editions, so doing the same for TL when they have the resources to do so without as strict a deadline... I wouldn't be surprised, but I wouldn't be hopeful.
There's also the issue that, while they said things "remain unchanged" they implied that Seven Seas was not guaranteed to continue publishing it.
Either way, this is being done by the Japanese publishers, who (I would assume), profit off licensing the English publishers. So buying the volumes still supports Growl.

Man, I have one of the short story collections on my book shelf(I forget, either Silver Yarn or Golden Yarn) and I can't imagine something like that being translated decently with this junk. What a bummer this all is.

 

[Tarage]

I will pirate every possible release from here on out. They will earn zero money from me.

Pay translators a living wage or fuck off completely.

 

[DanJADO]

Man, I like Philomena's curse arms. They matched Chise's.

I wonder if chise's father will show up at some point, or her little brother.

 

[SpiritusNox]

To put my own two cents in on the machine translated/human edited discussions - yeah, it's a fundamentally nonsensical system. Even giving it maximal benefit of the doubt, the fact that it even needs an editor at all discredits the whole practice. Why? Because either that editor can't read Japanese to an acceptable level of quality themselves, or they can. If they can't read japanese, then they can't meaningfully edit the text outside of very minor quibbles over word choice, because without being able to read the source text then they can't possibly have any idea at all what the manga is actually supposed to be saying. If they can read Japanese, then there's no practical purpose in feeding the text to a robot at all - you have a human right there who can manage matters of tone and emotional interpretation better than any robot. Except, of course, that you can tell people who don't understand the work being done that that human is just an editor, and not a translator, and thus pay them a lower rate. It's bad business for everyone involved but the shareholders - bad for the audience reading what's likely to be an inferior product, bad for the workers being minimized or displaced, bad for the author who's having new obstacles placed between the spirit of her work and wider audiences. Hell, it's not even that good for the shareholders except in the immediate term (admittedly, the only term most corporate ghouls operate in) because all the problems introduce negative sentiment around your product and scare potential audiences away - I've already seen multiple people who were on the fence about trying the manga swear off it as a result of this whole kerfuffle.

And yeah their quote about "error rates" means absolutely nothing when they can't even define for us what constitutes an "error" - a very subjective term in matters of even your own native language - in their systems, let alone how they arrived at that number.

Shit sucks. I will not be supporting the Growl translations and I discourage anyone else from doing so. Read the 7 seas release, read the fan TL (both of which are very well done by actual humans), hell, learn Japanese and start reading raws. I'm working on it, it's fun.

 

[ForTheJerusalem]

I guess i will just wait for the fan translation and then re-read it with the official release.

 

[JustSomeAlien]

If you want to read the chapter as soon as possible, then the simulpub is the fastest way. I still plan to upload at a later date, Christmas in this case.
About the actual chapter though, I'm enjoying the start of the arc. And I'm curious to learn more about the new mage.

Good thing I listened to my gut feeling and checked the comments lmao. Since your translation will be done on Christmas, I see no reason to read MTL. I look forward to it, and keep up the good work brother

 

[LordofAlI]

Really happy to see this back but a shame all that's going on with the ai stuff.