The Gender of Mona Lisa - Vol. 4 Ch. 18 - 8:2

[minmod]

Very complex last two chapters with these conversations! Thank you so much for translating!!

 

[Kriss10]

@tsuyukihime You are welcome. Thank you, I was quite nervous; I thought it was not clear enough.

@Korvalus

Hi, thank you for agreeing with my point, even if partially. Below I wrote a bit more, you don’t have to read it tho. Just wanted to elaborate on it lol

Despite the idea that the creation of more defined gender roles is inevitable in a world where you choose your own gender, it does not mean it has a say in your sexuality. Hence, why I mentioned the heteronormative aspect of it. The choosing your own gender does not mean that you get to choose your sexuality too. People can be bi, or pan. Then what? This work only “eliminates” the idea of transgender/transsexuality and eventually body disphoria (which Hinase is feeling right now, even if they do not have a gender or sex currently). You are right in mentioning the conservative views Japan holds, but when they want to they can make very good LGBT works. They just need to do some research.
This was the flaw within this work.
My point was not in relation to Hinase at all. Their journey of self-discovery and how society and your mindset changes according to the gender you pick is important, of course, but I was more pointing out how unnecessary was Shiori and Ritsu’s thought process. They both fell in love with someone who is not the opposite of their own sex. They just liked Hinase. Their conditioned preferences have not played any role in the feelings they feel for Hinase. People who are into the opposite genders and sexes have certain characteristics in which they interested in. Shiori seems Hinase as fragile, delicate, to be protected. He seems them in a feminine light. Ritsu is the opposite. She sees them as reliable, strong, someone who would protect her. None of these AND all of these are part of Hinase. Regardless of the sex and gender they pick, these will still be aspects that both Ritsu and Shiori see in Hinase. Again, this is due to the heteronormativity forced upon the world. The fact that, as this chapter has pointed out, there are more and more people coming out as still in love with the same sex, in fact means gender ≠ sexuality.
Hope I was not annoying, or overbearing and I hope I did not offend you. This is simply my opinion too, so I might be mistaken. Have a great day

 

[tsuyukihime]

@Korvalus See @Kriss10 's wonderfully written reply. I couldn't have said it better. The core problem of your statement is that you hold a flawed premise - gender and sexuality are not mutually inclusive. In fact, modern consensus points towards them being mutually exclusive. Kriss10 does a wonderful job in explaining why they are not associated with one another, and the exploration of each should not influence the other. Just ask any gay transgender person; whether or not they were attracted to a certain gender played no role in whether or not they felt like they were male or female on the inside.

@Kriss10 I can't thank you enough, words are hard and english is my second language. Cheers

 

[Kriss10]

@tsuyukihime

Hii, yeah no problem at all. Words are hard, especially when it comes to elaborating complex topics such as the link between, sex, gender identity, sexuality and eventually gender norms. It’s hard to explain that some definitely link, some don’t, or none do. The lack of awareness in all these topics is very vast and these type of works, despite the topics being interesting and explorative, they fail to incorporate or even explain properly the other aspects I mentioned before. Your English is perfectly fine too, if not more advanced from what I used lol.
Have a good day

 

[Admmi]

I think that some people are being too critical about the fact that the author doesn't talk about non-binari people(and some other groups from LGBT). I can perfectly understand the reason of non-binari people being non-existent on This world, they are dead. All we know about the people that don't chose a gender in this universe is that they die, so off course it doesn't exist. And now let's think about people that choose a gender and then discovered that they are non-binari, how do you people think that others would react? In the universe where you can choose your gender, you decided to choose one, even though you feel like you don't have one, wouldn't other people think that it's ridiculous? So here is another reason for me to not think that non-binari people exist in this universe( maybe they exist, but in this setting I would say that its even more difficult to come out, since people would think that it's ridiculous).
Now let's talk about trans, in our world trans people are normally people that feel that they weren't born with the correct gender for them, in this world something like this would be a lot harder and even more rare than rl.
About gay/lesbian people, well, I think that it would be rare since the norm in this society seems that if you a girl you go to boy and vice versa, but well even if they are probably more rare, it probably isn't something that rare, at least it seems a lot more plausible in this world than trans and non-binari.

 

[Korvalus]

@Kriss10: Now I'm starting to enjoy this. I read it all again, and glad to know a more elaborated version of your view. The thing is that we probably view the same issue from different angles: you see it more from the plane of psychological (or seems to me that way), while I focused on the societal plane and, more importantly, its influence on the upbringing it can bring to its populace and the values it instills.

Despite the idea that the creation of more defined gender roles is inevitable in a world where you choose your own gender, it does not mean it has a say in your sexuality. Hence, why I mentioned the heteronormative aspect of it. The choosing your own gender does not mean that you get to choose your sexuality too. People can be bi, or pan.

Of course, I think I said before that sexuality (I called them gender preferences, sorry if I made it confusing) is a separate thing to their gender identity. However a society which directly or indirectly frowns upon non-straight sexuality, like its most likely the case on this world, can affect (read: repress) them. It doesn't change their sexuality, of course, but makes them more... less known? to people who might help them to know such a possibility exists.
Also, it's implied this chapter that the gender-choosing somehow also influence their preferences to make them more normative; I guess that includes their sexuality as well.

Then what? This work only “eliminates” the idea of transgender/transsexuality and eventually body disphoria (which Hinase is feeling right now, even if they do not have a gender or sex currently).

I don't think Hinase went that far. I see them more as a child in a confusing time of their life and undestandably scared of the changes around and within him. Something like hitting puberty for the first time.

You are right in mentioning the conservative views Japan holds, but when they want to they can make very good LGBT works. They just need to do some research.
This was the flaw within this work.

Yeah, I also noticed of the lack of LGTB possibilities on this manga, but blamed it to the societal circumstances and its effects. In a sense, I think it's mostly intentional on part of the author because of drama, but I hope the manga elaborates on this direction on coming chapters.

My point was not in relation to Hinase at all. Their journey of self-discovery and how society and your mindset changes according to the gender you pick is important, of course, but I was more pointing out how unnecessary was Shiori and Ritsu’s thought process.

I agree that they're not making things easier for him. But I think what both did as a kind of "wake-up call" that Hinase might have needed. Not to choose a gender, but to finally realise that things are not like it used to be anymore and that he has to grow, irrespective of choosing gender. However, they did it pretty badly, you don't give that much angst to a friend. Not cool, guys.

They both fell in love with someone who is not the opposite of their own sex. They just liked Hinase. Their conditioned preferences have not played any role in the feelings they feel for Hinase. People who are into the opposite genders and sexes have certain characteristics in which they interested in. Shiori seems Hinase as fragile, delicate, to be protected. He seems them in a feminine light. Ritsu is the opposite. She sees them as reliable, strong, someone who would protect her. None of these AND all of these are part of Hinase.

I agree, but I think that it's important to note that both of them confessed and immediately asked them to become their opposite gender. Not that they stays like they are, but to change according to his/her preferences. Also, these last chapters have both Ritsu and Shiori dealing with the possibility of their feelings changing if Hinase becomes the same gender as them and finding their feelings lacking in that situation.

Regardless of the sex and gender they pick, these will still be aspects that both Ritsu and Shiori see in Hinase. Again, this is due to the heteronormativity forced upon the world. The fact that, as this chapter has pointed out, there are more and more people coming out as still in love with the same sex, in fact means gender ≠ sexuality.

I've never doubted it, I just say that due to the society and gender quirk they have in this world, LGTB people have less visibility than in our world and many of them would prefer to stay in the closet due to society's expectations, like still happens in certain parts of our world.

Hope I was not annoying, or overbearing and I hope I did not offend you. This is simply my opinion too, so I might be mistaken. Have a great day

Not at all. In fact, I'm enjoying this discussion with you and learning a bit along with it. As said, we both have pretty similar opinions on the issue, but take it from different angles. Hope I didn't embarrass myself with this and forgive me if my grammar might have been out of place sometimes. You too pal, see ya.

 

[Kriss10]

@Korvalus

I am so glad you replied because honestly, you never stop learning when it comes to these topics. I am really sorry but I have no clue how to quote your reply as you did with mine, thus it will be an homogeneous paragraph. Please bear with me.

I completely agree with point number 1 regarding the fact that same sex couples will not be as “common” as straight couples due to the possibility to choose your own gender. Perfectly reasonable. Moreover, thanks to the possibility of choosing, kids can see the way adults behave in the sex they picked. To be more elaborative in this point, in order to avoid confusion, if a genderless kid likes the way women dress, behave, the way the look and likes and dislikes, they create an idea of it that fits with their wishes. Again, this reflect upon the gender norms we discusses earlier. They become inevitable as we love to create boxes and categories.

POINT 2: can be seen as purely subjective because while yes, puberty does play a role, I believe it is not all there is to it. Hinase is confused and finally realising how their childhood friend have grown and drifted to what they used to be, they may also feel a sense of confusion and maybe loathing (might be farfetched as a word but this is simply an assumption after all) due to the fact that they are slow, they have been left behind. They feel comfortable with their body, maybe too comfortable but at the same time they feel estranged, weird. They wonder why they haven’t picked yet and how they can do that. Obviously dysphoria would not be the correct term since this is a work of fiction and we do not have the issues to actually pick our own sex, but it would encompass a similar feeling to it.

POINT 3? It made chuckle. They really did unload, selfishly too, their feelings one after the other. My original point, however, was more to focus on the childhood friends’ mindset, regardless what Hinase decided.

POINT 4: Again, their preferences are due to the heteronormativity that takes effect on their world. They are EXPECTED to like someone from the opposite gender. My point, however, is that despite they asking Hinase to adapt to their preferences, they are not in love with female Hinase or male Hinase. They just like Hinase, the genderless and sexless Hinase. They are not a woman nor a man. My question was more on the idea that their preferences have not played any role for far, thus the whole “would I like them if Hinase was (insert sex)?” becomes superfluous. At the end of the day, what Hinase will go through will only be a physical change (or so we are assuming). Even if other aspects are changed too, such as the present chapter of the girl saying that she started baking and whatnot (gender norms again sigh), the Hinase they like now is nor female or male. This is what I was so confused about. Whatever Hinase decided to choose, sex becomes superfluous as Hinase does not fit their preferences to begin with. I am not too sure how to be more clear on this. This is more about my confusion on why have this whole existential crisis , when the only thing that might actually change is their genitals. This is already beyond the concept of attraction.
This is genuinely so hard to explain lol. This might even be normal but I just do not understand it.

I did not include all the points you made since I had nothing to comment on as I agree with them. It’s a great story, could have been tackling soooo many more topics and maybe even more in depth. I wish it involved also a polyamorous relationship but that’s also illegal in Japan so ouch. Thank you though! I do not expect you to entangle the confusion the author has created within me and from the way I have written that damned point, I might confused the shit out of you too.

 

[Korvalus]

@Kriss10: Oh don't worry. It's rather simple, really. Have you notived the row of buttons up the text boxk then you comment? They are to modify the comment with additional code. For quotes, you just have to click the ["] button for the code to appear in the text box. It should appear like this (they should appear with [ ] instead of { }, but I'll use the latter because the former triggers the code):
{quote}{/quote}
Then just copypaste the text you want to quote between the {quote} and {/quote} and there you have it.

I completely agree with point number 1 regarding the fact that same sex couples will not be as “common” as straight couples due to the possibility to choose your own gender. Perfectly reasonable. Moreover, thanks to the possibility of choosing, kids can see the way adults behave in the sex they picked. To be more elaborative in this point, in order to avoid confusion, if a genderless kid likes the way women dress, behave, the way the look and likes and dislikes, they create an idea of it that fits with their wishes. Again, this reflect upon the gender norms we discusses earlier. They become inevitable as we love to create boxes and categories.

I think that is an important aspect in this world: how their circumstances abour gender shaped their values.

POINT 2: can be seen as purely subjective because while yes, puberty does play a role, I believe it is not all there is to it. Hinase is confused and finally realising how their childhood friend have grown and drifted to what they used to be, they may also feel a sense of confusion and maybe loathing (might be farfetched as a word but this is simply an assumption after all) due to the fact that they are slow, they have been left behind. They feel comfortable with their body, maybe too comfortable but at the same time they feel estranged, weird. They wonder why they haven’t picked yet and how they can do that. Obviously dysphoria would not be the correct term since this is a work of fiction and we do not have the issues to actually pick our own sex, but it would encompass a similar feeling to it.

I think that you nailed my opinion with Hinase: they were too comfortable with their situation. Sure, they knew they wasn't normal; but as long as their friends and their relationship with them stayed the same, they were happy and didn't feel the necessity to change. Maybe like a lesser version of Peter Pan syndrome. The confessions of both his friends is the "wake-up" I think he needed in regards that yes, things are changing, cannot stay the same anymore and Hinase should change too. That's why I've related it to puberty, it has many parallelisms with it.

POINT 4: Again, their preferences are due to the heteronormativity that takes effect on their world. They are EXPECTED to like someone from the opposite gender. My point, however, is that despite they asking Hinase to adapt to their preferences, they are not in love with female Hinase or male Hinase. They just like Hinase, the genderless and sexless Hinase. They are not a woman nor a man. My question was more on the idea that their preferences have not played any role for far, thus the whole “would I like them if Hinase was (insert sex)?” becomes superfluous. At the end of the day, what Hinase will go through will only be a physical change (or so we are assuming). Even if other aspects are changed too, such as the present chapter of the girl saying that she started baking and whatnot (gender norms again sigh), the Hinase they like now is nor female or male. This is what I was so confused about. Whatever Hinase decided to choose, sex becomes superfluous as Hinase does not fit their preferences to begin with. I am not too sure how to be more clear on this. This is more about my confusion on why have this whole existential crisis , when the only thing that might actually change is their genitals. This is already beyond the concept of attraction.
This is genuinely so hard to explain lol. This might even be normal but I just do not understand it.

That's what we might believe, but I don't think they believe that. Both of them will probably think (and Ritsu has seen proof on this chapter) that when people becomes a gender, their mentality changes. So probably it's not that they think Hinase will stop being Hinase, but that the things both of them like about them will dissappear once Hinase becomes the same gender as him/her. Hinase will lose the manly traits Ritsu likes if they becomes a girl and viceversa. However if they becomes the opposite gender as him/her, those traits will not only stay, but maybe become stronger. Or at least that's what I believe they think.
Whatever ends up happegning it's not important, its about the preconceptions and values the three of them have been instilled in since childhood (again, the heteronormative). I think it's mostly fear to unexpected changes in a person and changing our opinion of them.

 

[Kriss10]

@Korvalus

The last point however I would like to add that, if being genderless allows Hinase to be viewed as feminine/masculine, how much does gender actually play a role in someone’s personality. Ritsu sees Hinase as reliable, someone to depend on, but because Hinase does not have a sex, thus the personality traits that both Ritsu and Shiori deem masculine/feminine are not related to the chosen sex, if you know what I mean. This is again due to gender norms, that women are to be protected and men are the one who do the protecting. It’s ridiculous really, but apparently, the author has decided to explore it more on a superficial level. I hope they get to expand on the point better. People seem to think that Shiori will be the one that Hinase chooses, but I was hoping they don’t pick anyone lol. Thank you for the convo tho

 

[Korvalus]

@Kriss10: I think it will expand on that direction. So far the manga is exploring about how gender affects ourselves and our perceptions, so I guess sooner or later it will defy preconceptions and show that Hinase will still be Hinase regardless of gender, rendering Ritsu's and Shiori's worries moot. But it's too soon to tell and much drama to be had in the meantime.
I also hope Hinase will not pick anyone, to be honest, but it's not my decision to make and see how it goes.

 

[Campi_the_Bat]

- "I'm alive, but I think my jaw is broken..."

"Now you'll look like a handsome actor."

Unexpectedly brutal.

 

[DARLINGBEAR]

my gosh how do u delete a comment. . . anyways stan ritsu