The need for a transgender tag

[ariel_haymarket]

I'm certain that this may have been suggested before, but given:

• that we have two known and recent instances of MD uploads with characters who are, either explicitly shown/stated in the manga or clarified off-site by the author, transmasc or transfem (respectively, in the two links above)
• the existence of other works such as "Boys Run The Riot" having openly and explicitly transgender lead characters but are forced to be tagged "crossdressing"
• the social media front trying to be more LGBT-inclusive

it's high time for there to be a transgender tag as an upload tag option.

And if it cannot be done because "the rules" state that it cannot just be one chapter (which disqualifies myriad oneshots from being appropriately tagged), then the rules need to be amended as well so to better clarify.

 

[Twics]

no

 

[ariel_haymarket]

no

We'd like to understand why you would oppose this.

 

[Hicleric]

I am all for this, even noting the overlap with the (usually) fantastical genderswap tag, but I do wonder how much additional moderation will be required for tag edit wars (I kid, the load is already there in certain less-than-polite comments sections )

This would also give visibility to side plots and characters in stories that aren't expressly about it, like the aunt from Skip and Loafer

 

[ariel_haymarket]

I am all for this, even noting the overlap with the (usually) fantastical genderswap tag, but I do wonder how much additional moderation will be required for tag edit wars (I kid, the load is already there in certain less-than-polite comments sections )

This would also give visibility to side plots and characters in stories that aren't expressly about it, like the aunt from Skip and Loafer

Oh yeah, the whole genderswap thing does tend to muddy the waters some.

 

[DesertStorm]

It should only apply if it's part of the whole story.

Genre and theme tags should be added only if the tag is a representation of the title as a whole, not just appearing in a single chapter.

Imo, it should be LGBT instead of making several tags as a compromise.

 

[ariel_haymarket]

It should only apply if it's part of the plot.

Imo, it should be LGBT instead of making several tags as a compromise.

The quoted distinction doesn't seem to make sense when a character that is part of the plot would qualify for the tag. With that logic, oneshots like "Monsters Among Us" by Chii and "Girlfriend" by Mizuki Kishikawa would entirely be disqualified.

An "LGBT" tag would only muddy the waters further and heavily overlap with the BL and GL tags.

 

[DesertStorm]

The quoted distinction doesn't seem to make sense when a character that is part of the plot would qualify for the tag.

An "LGBT" tag would only muddy the waters further and heavily overlap with the BL and GL tags.

I don't make the rules:
https://mangadex.org/rules

 

[ariel_haymarket]

I don't make the rules:
https://mangadex.org/rules

Hence this suggestion calling for an amendment of the rules and for the creation of a tag.

The rule disqualifies oneshots for no reason.

 

[Manko-sensei]

There are other threads, being this one the longest one about suggesting terms, and so far it's far from the higher priority issues Mangadex staff is working at. The main problem about new tags, specially those that are not used by native publishers, is how hard and time consuming would be to include all of them, not to talk about the amount of work it'd add to moderators. I indeed wanted a few more theme tags including "LGBTIQA+ topics" because there were works with yaoi and yuri (genre tags) inacurately applied but I got no official feedback. My suggestions are don't expect anything and learn to skim to find the works you want faster, it's strange someone hasn't shouted "go to Dynasty" yet (in fact, you can find works there and read them here later). And after many years using Mangadex, I can tell you this is meant to appease the masses, so they make it easier for the haters to filter out non heteronormative terms to reduce the flame instead of taking a more "inclusive approach" as you would say. Not that it stops people from using hate speech in those titles and not getting banned...

 

[ariel_haymarket]

There are other threads, being this one the longest one about suggesting terms, and so far it's far from the higher priority issues Mangadex staff is working at. The main problem about new tags, specially those that are not used by native publishers, is how hard and time consuming would be to include all of them, not to talk about the amount of work it'd add to moderators. I indeed wanted a few more theme tags including "LGBTIQA+ topics" because there were works with yaoi and yuri (genre tags) inacurately applied but I got no official feedback. My suggestions are don't expect anything and learn to skim to find the works you want faster, it's strange someone hasn't shouted "go to Dynasty" yet (in fact, you can find works there and read them here later). And after many years using Mangadex, I can tell you this is meant to appease the masses, so they make it easier for the haters to filter out non heteronormative terms to reduce the flame instead of taking a more "inclusive approach" as you would say. Not that it stops people from using hate speech in those titles and not getting banned...

True. The genderswap, crossdressing, and similar tags certainly don't make things easier. Thank you for your input.

 

[ariel_haymarket]

Imo, it should be LGBT instead of making several tags as a compromise.

I want to address how this specifically isn't the right compromise.

I'm not going to get into the whole otokonoko business - at least not in this discussion - so I'll focus on how genderbend, genderswap, transgender, and crossdressing are different enough genres to the fans where it would be warranted to have a separate tag that would include transgender themes and/or characters. While they are not mutually exclusive, they are different enough to require the differentiation in the tags. An understandable issue with this suggestion I'm putting forward, as @Manko-sensei put it, is the time needed to coordinate which tags are appropriate, and that would require communication between G-d knows how many groups and indie uploaders, not to mention official publishers.

To throw all of these along with Girls' Love and Boys' Love and related into one "LGBT" tag would be confusing to the reader as well as unfair towards readers who appreciate the distinctions and nuances that also create overlapping areas.

 

[Teasday]

As far as I've understood the main reason we don't have a transgender tag is because there's only like a handful of manga it would truly apply to. The most niche of our theme tags currently, Virtual Reality, still includes a few hundreds of titles, and any new tag should preferably be at least around the same level of importance.

And yeah, a tag needs to essentially represent the work as a whole. A side character being incidentally trans wouldn't be enough, just as a side character being a cop wouldn't qualify for the Police tag.

I'll focus on how genderbend, genderswap, transgender, and crossdressing are different enough genres to the fans where it would be warranted to have a separate tag that would include transgender themes and/or characters.

We don't have genderbend, so no need to focus on that. Genderswap and crossdressing are certainly the wrong tags to apply to actual transgender characters, so if you find anything mistagged like that, please report to get them removed.

 

[Teasday]

The brainrot of some of these people aside, if you want to contribute to categorizing transgender title entries, I'd suggest making a public MDList for starters.

 

[LinkedSet]

So they're saying there needs to be more "actually trans" works, which is kinda fair? Ig? Trans characters are seemingly not too uncommon, but rarely refer to themselves as such. In manga that is. There's still some manga that do, rarely. Although sometimes I wonder about whether it's a TL thing when it sometimes seems really obvious. It's definitely more common to use definitive terminology in western trans media.

Is there a reason to not have a tag with 80 works though? Still a sizable collection. Works for the people who hate trans people as well since they can just blacklist the tag completely. Oh wait, can't blacklist tags. Not to derail but like, why can't you? To make a callback to the other "least works within tag" I don't think I ever want to read another Virtual Reality series again tbh.

You know who's got a killer system? vndb for visual novels, those guys are insane with every work having multiple levels of tags that show basic info, minor spoilers, and full spoilers. They also have tags for every obscure thing you could think of, it's great. Probably a lot of work, idk if it's community based or moderated well tbf.

 

[LinkedSet]

The brainrot of some of these people aside, if you want to contribute to categorizing transgender title entries, I'd suggest making a public MDList for starters.

There's no search directory for MDLists either though, so you have to rely on finding a forum post. What percentage of MD users aren't even on the forums? Not even lurking?

 

[BzzBzz]

You know who's got a killer system? vndb for visual novels, those guys are insane with every work having multiple levels of tags that show basic info, minor spoilers, and full spoilers. They also have tags for every obscure thing you could think of, it's great. Probably a lot of work, idk if it's community based or moderated well tbf.

And 90% of these tags barely reliable because that content appear in a single screen of single scene.
Just like mangaupdates with hundreds tags on some series. 90% of these tags appear in a single frame of single page of single chapter.

 

[Manko-sensei]

As Teasday mentioned, it is not meant for the general public but useful for both staff and users that check the forum for recommendations, so making said MDList is a good start, there's one for educative content (though they already mentioned how troublesome it may turn that tag) and another one for non-hentai Futanari on Manga subforum (they even created a Discord server to discuss titles). There was for instance another post about disphoria where Erik shared a manga title that's the story of a manga artist undergoing a sex change surgery and post-treatment (the most transgender/sex manga I've read) but there's a lot of series where cross-dressing and gender identity are mixed, so drawing the difference (they can be both true in the same series) could help.

 

[LinkedSet]

And 90% of these tags barely reliable because that content appear in a single screen of single scene.
Just like mangaupdates with hundreds tags on some series. 90% of these tags appear in a single frame of single page of single chapter.

Yeah I definitely understand restricting it to major things instead of "unreliable male narrator" and "character is revealed to be gay" and so on. I just like how easy it is to go "ah what was that one game where the main character is secretly a vampire?" and there it is, found it in one tag. That's not a real example btw, just being hyperbolic.

"Trans" is a much larger umbrella though.

 

[Teasday]

There's no search directory for MDLists either though, so you have to rely on finding a forum post. What percentage of MD users aren't even on the forums? Not even lurking?

I did say for starters. If nothing else it'll be an indication of how many relevant works there would be, and if we were to decide to add a tag, it'd make it easier to have a list already compiled to do the actual tagging. This same logic applies to any new proposed tag, by the way.

MDList listing is something we've thought about but that's not really the point (nor is it seriously planned to be worked on atm).