Uchuujin no Kakushigoto - Vol. 3 Ch. 21 - Answer

[GoostalgiaCritic]

The characters all being paper-thin ciphers with zero personality isn't an opinion, that's an objective fact. What's an opinion is whether or not you personally like the paper-thin ciphers. Personally I think liking paper-thin ciphers is a sign of shit taste.

Not that guy, but in my opinion, your opinion is flawed, a character doesn't necessarily need to be all that deep or have that much time dedicated to them so long as they are done well and are fun to watch. I think you might be thinking of something like My Hero Academia's cast which is pretty god awful aside from a few exceptions like my beloved bunny wife, but writing off someone like, for example, Yujiro Hanma because his only personality is being the strongest being on the planet in spite of being so fun to watch because of how much of a menace he is not really good taste in my opinion. I can go one step further and say that characters who are "deep" can also be quite shallow and distateful, ie Abbie in TLOU2

First, please don't use the term "used goods" unironically. Second, whether or not you personally like the characters, they are all far more complex objectively than the characters in this manga.

I mean there aren't random deaths like in this manga (thank god) but it's certainly a relatively cynical take on the romcom premise, especially if you read more of it.

Please don't use terms like "no-good whore."

Spoiler: Mod Edit: Personal Attacks

your mother is used goods and your sister is a no-good whore. Dont tell me what I can or cannot say and play the moral card.

And again, I have seen these types of characters before and they arent really that interesting personally, they might be to you but I just like something a bit more subdued since I've been exposed to an abundance of characters like them. Cant exactly say anything concrete since about Sex With Anyone since this is just my impression ~10 chapters in it so you might be right in that it is some kino stuff, I just dont see it yet.

"They're not even remotely close aside from lists several extremely specific qualities they both share." Sure one is a battle manga while the other is...well, I guess you could call this manga a romcom. But this manga uses (or tries to use) "dark absurdist humor" too. That one has demons and the other has aliens is an irrelevant difference to me, and the difference in cast size is mainly due to the difference in chapter count.

The setting and worlds are completely different, one has hell which people are aware of and has worldbuilding revolving that, with devils openly terrorizing people on a daily basis with fear determining how powerful they are, organizations were formed to deal with said devils, devils taking over people's bodies, people making pacts with devils, and the chainsaw devil outright changing reality by eating devils. The other is just the normal world with the caveat that natural disasters are caused by aliens, but nobody knows this or aliens even exist because a shadow organization MIGHT exist to cover it up, but there generally isnt any solid laws, history, worldbuilding revolving aliens interacting with the world. The characters are also different with one having a cast of insane people while the other is more normal generally but are being driven insane by an alien, the only similarity coming to my mind that could be drawn is with Aki and the MC, and maybe Kobeni and VP post-mindwipe or Makima but Kobeni is a girl-failure, VP is a crazy yandere. The humor in chainsaw man is more like an edgy punk teenager coming from a cast of mentally deranged people, while Secret of Alien is more akin to a more sad "jesus christ!" kind where its just one bad thing after another. Also, chapter count is irrelevant, Chainsaw man introduced a cast of 8-9 characters in 20 chapters, ~18 if you include devils, side characters, and Meowy, Secret of Alien has 5 so far, 6 if you want to include gyaru before she blew up.

For the female characters, you're basically agreeing with me that they're all paper-thin ciphers and just justifying why that makes sense in-story, so I won't address them.

I mean, its a parody, they're either an alien clone thats a few days old or brain-damaged, and basically just serve to drive protag insane so I guess? wouldn't exactly call them worthless since they impact the story, it is understandable why they might be one-note, and again, its parodying the romcom harem genre.

I do think the protagonist is the closest the manga gets to an interesting character (aside from pre-death Karagaki but she was there for only one chapter), but he feels to me more like a theoretically interesting idea than a real person with a personality. A huge sign of this is in how the fact that he only sees everyone else as shadows had to be pointed out by another character in expository dialogue; pretty much everything about him has to be described to the reader explicitly in dialogue because the author cannot establish him through the character's actual actions. As a result his actual actions are basically "is generically helpful and otherwise is mostly emotionless," just like every other blank personality-less audience self-insert male MC in romcoms. Maybe he'll actually do something interesting in future chapters, but I have zero faith in the author anymore.

Ah yes, a doctor shouldn't tell you that you have cancer, instead he must imply that you do while you must guess through the symptoms.
I'm joking, but seriously though, I think it actually adds to the story since it was kind of foreshadowed that Protag doesn't remember faces through the silhouettes, and it isn't bad writing to just explicitly say a character has an issue. Show and dont tell is just as much a viable method as exposition, it just depends on how they are executed that really matters and I think, for example, the scene of VP telling protag he doesn't remember faces is done pretty well and was forshadowed since the beginning through the silhouettes, which I think adds to the story since it adds context to what I thought was just the author being lazy (its not a bad thing to be sometimes though as long as you focus on what really matters). He is passive but its fine so far since the main focus is his relationship with Alien-chan, how low can he get, and what happened because he was passive and relied on Alien-chan to do everything for him. I do think the focus will switch to what he will do later, but if it becomes a mess like the delinquent manga I will DM you my apology.

Similarly to the protagonist, the friend goes through a theoretically interesting character arc but it's not executed in a way to actually show who he is as a person. We never learn how or why he became so attached to Karagaki, and thus the moment when he realized he didn't actually care about her failed to resonate with me. His mother committing suicide also has little impact because we (iirc) don't even see his mother before her death; we have literally no idea what his relationship with her was like. As a result, like the protagonist, he's a personalityless cipher who I guess is compelling to people like you who can self-insert into him, but in and of himself he is very boring.

We do know who he was sorta, he was forcing himself to be someone who he wasnt because he was simping for a girl with no interest in him and was isolated from everyone else. We never really knew the exact relationship between BF and Gyaru, and maybe it would be nice to have that fleshed out to add flavor in a bonus chapter or a small prequel series, but it doesn't really matter all that much when the main focus is on Alien and Protag's relationship and we can safely assume it isn't a very healthy one at that. BF was isolated after he pushed away his only friend, his GF died before he realized he was all by himself, it seemed like he was going through depression as well, and his mother's suicide was the final nail in the coffin for him since he had no one left in his life.

Not trolling, but I admit my knowledge of het romcoms is a lot more limited than my knowledge of yuri romcoms. If your'e up for a yuri manhwa that's sort of similar to this manga -- dark humor with a yandere character and a tone that moves between irreverence and seriousness, but is far better because its characters are far more compelling and its plot twists actually make sense, I cannot recommend I Love Amy highly enough.

I never really was a fan of yuri/yaoi stuff, it just turns me off and I just dont know. Will try it out later and see if its my thing though.

I like kuuderes as much as the next guy, but the appeal of a kuudere is in the contrast between their stolid demeanor and their rich inner life. The alien girl here has no inner life. She might as well be a computer program frankly.

I'm glad I have a fellow enjoyer, but I believe you are overlooking alien-chan's moments of affection (or manipulation, whichever). Theyre not really that explicit and might be easy to miss, but she does have inner life, its just that she's a Gantz alien so she is just more kookier than usual. I just personally think this manga might not have hit home with you like others

 

[Eighty-six]

The characters all being paper-thin ciphers with zero personality isn't an opinion, that's an objective fact.

Putting aside that that wasn't the only thing you said that I responded to: you wouldn't need to spend time telling us "objective facts", if they were objective facts. Imagine if some guy told you, without a shred of irony, that every sixty minutes an hour passes. How would you feel about someone wasting your time stating the obvious?

You're not indicating "objective fact"-- you're indicating that you're uninterested in even attempting to express your perspective in a way that others may understand and/or care about, after indicating that you can't understand why people like this manga to the point that it causes you unresolvable discomfort.

What that amounts to is a self-importance so inwardly turned, it can't even potentially enrich others.

"Zero personality" is also nonsense. Every named character in any story has personality by definition of being an individual character-- they have arrays of mental states, and attributes that restrict or encourage them to take certain actions and have certain reactions. The same is true in this story. It's one thing to criticize the strength of the impression the characters have on you, or propose that there are contradictions that don't themselves appear to serve a purpose, but even that has to be balanced with an assessment of the author's purposes for said characters or the character cast as a whole.

First, please don't use the term "used goods" unironically.

Please don't use terms like "no-good whore."

...speaking of perspective issues: if someone had it in them to comply with a simple "don't say that word" absent an invocation of anything they could conceivably care about, do you honestly think they would be using such words in the first place?

 

[Cogito3]

The Class Rep(dude never got a name in case you doubt the intentionality here) says so from the beginning; that his bad personality who will help anyone because he just wants to be praised will get him in trouble. It does. It gets everyone in trouble and it kills everyone around him. It's going to get him killed, too. The Alien's lack of care and understanding of humans has led to her making a total mess of things when she's supposed to be there undercover to learn how to destroy humanity. She thinks she has an answer, but she 1: has discovered the most basic thing ever, 2: left a massive trail for the earth governments to follow and figure out what her deal was and 3: is probably gon' die.

So yeah, this isn't a good romance manga. It's not supposed to be.

This is a very interesting argument, and I think you're absolutely right that this is what the mangaka was going for. The problem is I don't think he executes it very well at all. Take, for instance, your statement that the protagonist's "bad personality . . . gets everyone in trouble and kills everyone around him." But does it? If you trace back all the bad things that happen in this manga, they're all a result of the alien girl murdering one girl and shooting another with a magical "turn people evil" gun. I guess you could say she got the opportunity to because the protagonist was too nice to her, but I feel like that's kind of a misleading way of putting it; all this is happening because the alien girl is a sociopath, and the protagonist's only real mistake is giving the psychopath too much leeway because he's in love with her. Him helping "anyone" isn't the problem, the problem is he's helping this one specific person.

I think this is related to the characters not having depth. I'm not expecting Shakespeare here, but in any remotely compelling tragedy, the tragic events have to happen as a natural result of the characters' real flaws. That doesn't happen in this manga because the characters don't really have substantive personalities that can possess flaws. So instead the author relies on a sociopath and a magical "turn people evil" gun to make bad things happen. That is very much not compelling to me.

Not that guy, but in my opinion, your opinion is flawed, a character doesn't necessarily need to be all that deep or have that much time dedicated to them so long as they are done well and are fun to watch. I think you might be thinking of something like My Hero Academia's cast which is pretty god awful aside from a few exceptions like my beloved bunny wife, but writing off someone like, for example, Yujiro Hanma because his only personality is being the strongest being on the planet in spite of being so fun to watch because of how much of a menace he is not really good taste in my opinion. I can go one step further and say that characters who are "deep" can also be quite shallow and distateful, ie Abbie in TLOU2

This is a fair point, and you're right that a character doesn't have to be super complex to be compelling. I think I haven't explained my point as well as I could have. Through this discussion I've come to realize the real issue isn't that the characters are simplistic, but that they're emotionless. Characters with big, bombastic personalities like Yujiro Hanma are fun to watch. These characters all feel like cardboard. The yandere girl and the gyaru post-"resurrection" only ever had one emotion ("is a yandere" and "generically happy" respectively). The protagonist has almost no emotions, and the alien girl has literally none. The friend was mostly just angry; I can't even really recall him displaying much sadness at the gyaru's disappearance, just anger that nobody cared. That's why these characters aren't compelling to me. Even Goku has a wider range of emotion than these cardboard cutouts.

And again, I have seen these types of characters before and they arent really that interesting personally, they might be to you but I just like something a bit more subdued since I've been exposed to an abundance of characters like them. Cant exactly say anything concrete since about Sex With Anyone since this is just my impression ~10 chapters in it so you might be right in that it is some kino stuff, I just dont see it yet.

I find this a strange criticism since every single character in this manga I have seen many times before as well. By contrast, the Sex With Anyone's protagonist struggle to overcome his insecurity (which sometimes leads to him hurting the one he loves because he goes too far in the other direction), his attempts to balance his love and his lust, and his genuine but simultaneously halfhearted goal of understanding who the FL really is are a lot more original to me.

Ah yes, a doctor shouldn't tell you that you have cancer, instead he must imply that you do while you must guess through the symptoms.
I'm joking, but seriously though, I think it actually adds to the story since it was kind of foreshadowed that Protag doesn't remember faces through the silhouettes, and it isn't bad writing to just explicitly say a character has an issue. Show and dont tell is just as much a viable method as exposition, it just depends on how they are executed

Sometimes you have to rely on exposition, but this manga relies almost entirely on exposition because the author is incapable of portraying characters' personality and emotions through their actions.

We do know who he was sorta, he was forcing himself to be someone who he wasnt because he was simping for a girl with no interest in him and was isolated from everyone else. We never really knew the exact relationship between BF and Gyaru, and maybe it would be nice to have that fleshed out to add flavor in a bonus chapter or a small prequel series, but it doesn't really matter all that much when the main focus is on Alien and Protag's relationship and we can safely assume it isn't a very healthy one at that. BF was isolated after he pushed away his only friend, his GF died before he realized he was all by himself, it seemed like he was going through depression as well, and his mother's suicide was the final nail in the coffin for him since he had no one left in his life.

The friend got multiple chapters devoted to him, he's not some minor character, but even after that we still have no real idea what kind of person he was. And it's the same for every other character in this manga. Try to explain who they are, and you can only rely on brute facts about them: the protagonist helps people (we don't actually see this but we're told in exposition); he's in love with the alien girl (we don't actually see this but we're told in exposition); the yandere is insanely in love with him (this one we do see but it's literally the only thing about her); the friend is in love with the gyaru (we don't actually see this but we're told in exposition); etc.

I'm glad I have a fellow enjoyer, but I believe you are overlooking alien-chan's moments of affection (or manipulation, whichever). Theyre not really that explicit and might be easy to miss, but she does have inner life, its just that she's a Gantz alien so she is just more kookier than usual. I just personally think this manga might not have hit home with you like others

Her moments of affection are all in dialogue/exposition. Any potential inner life she might have is entirely a projection of the protagonist, or the reader. Which in and of itself is an interesting satirical idea; the problem is every other character is the same way.

For sure this manga didn't hit home with me like it did for you and others, I'm just trying to understand why. And for what it's worth, my conversation with you has helped me understand why, so thank you for that.

Putting aside that that wasn't the only thing you said that I responded to: you wouldn't need to spend time telling us "objective facts", if they were objective facts. Imagine if some guy told you, without a shred of irony, that every sixty minutes an hour passes. How would you feel about someone wasting your time stating the obvious?

If it makes you feel better you can add "in my opinion" before everything I say. But I have no interest engaging in a tone debate on the mangadex forum of all places.

...speaking of perspective issues: if someone had it in them to comply with a simple "don't say that word" absent an invocation of anything they could conceivably care about, do you honestly think they would be using such words in the first place?

I was just giving him friendly advice that if he doesn't want to be seen as a misogynist, he shouldn't use misogynistic phrases. His response made it clear that he doesn't mind being seen as a misogynist, which is his choice.

 

[Eighty-six]

If it makes you feel better you can add "in my opinion" before everything I say. But I have no interest engaging in a tone debate on the mangadex forum of all places.

Why are you quoting a segment of my post only to not respond to it?

Nothing, out of any of my comments to you, have been about tone, and they have not been about declaring what is and isn't your opinion. I am aware that what you are saying is your opinion, even when you claim otherwise. The basis of your initial post was your bafflement that people didn't share your perspective, after all.

My criticism is that you want people to agree with you without putting in the effort to explain why they should value what you value (e.g. why should they care about your reading history?), and to see the details at hand in the way you do. To that end, you claim that what you're saying is objective fact-- except, if what you were saying was objective fact, it wouldn't need to be said absent the belief that others were being dishonest. Furthermore, you wouldn't even be baffled at the disagreement of others on this matter, because they would have agreed with you in the first place.

I was just giving him friendly advice that if he doesn't want to be seen as a misogynist, he shouldn't use misogynistic phrases.

That isn't what you wrote out. You just wrote "please don't say X"; practically, you're expecting him to know why you're making those admonitions at all. For all anybody could know, you could have been making those advisories because you have a friend whose girlfriend is a prostitute, and the use of the term "no-good whore" rankles you specifically because of that.

But if he's supposed to know that you're telling him how to not be a misogynist, without you telling him that you're advising him on how to not be a misogynist, then you should realize that he already knows how to not be seen as a misogynist.

In which case, there's zero point in you giving your advice.

 

[Cogito3]

My criticism is that you want people to agree with you without putting in the effort to explain why they should value what you value (e.g. why should they care about your reading history?), and to see the details at hand in the way you do. To that end, you claim that what you're saying is objective fact-- except, if what you were saying was objective fact, it wouldn't need to be said. Furthermore, you wouldn't even be baffled at the disagreement of others on this matter, because they would have agreed with you in the first place.

I assumed you were talking about tone because the alternative -- that you legitimately believe everyone on Earth already believes in every "objective fact" -- is so absurd it feels uncharitable to attribute to anyone. Yet it seems that is what you honestly believe. Are you trolling?

That isn't what you wrote out. You just wrote "please don't say X"; practically, you're expecting him to know why you're making those admonitions at all. For all anybody could know, you could have been making those advisories because you have a friend whose girlfriend is a prostitute, and the use of the term "no-good whore" rankles you specifically because of that.

Okay yeah you're definitely trolling. Congrats I got got and all that

 

[Eighty-six]

I assumed you were talking about tone--

I gave you nothing that could even be construed as me talking about tone. You casting subjective opinions as objective fact isn't a tone issue-- it's the product of attempting to avoid the burden of explaining your opinions in a way anybody could conceivably care about, while still sharing them for all to see.

At the same time as you made this post, I clarified in my comment that you have to assume dishonesty on others who disagree on "objective fact". Regardless, it would have been more sensible to have made the argument you made now instead of responding to something I never said or implied.

Okay yeah you're definitely trolling.

Because of one hypothetical example of how anything could be inserted into the void of context you provided for your admonitions? It was a very topical hypothetical, and I made sure to not suggest that any of your relations or lovers were prostitutes.

You didn't even address me demonstrating that your failure to give context implies that even you knew your advisories were completely redundant-- or, that you ought to have known.

I'm beginning to suspect that you want to reply to my comments while avoiding what I'm saying.

 

[rnggod7777]

There's a light novel in posts above me from the same two people, primarily one of them as a contributor. All that aside man is this story really taking off. Glad to be here for it and honestly, as a species we kinda had it comin, at least this guy can find peace and alienussy in our passing.

 

[gum_rummy]

There's no way NO ONE has ever thanked him for anything with the way he acts. Not even for holding a door open or helping the class? Buddy, why are you lying?

 

[TestAddress]

He's gonna die

THIS is a FACT. 80% - 20% Pareto Principle applies to this story, given Hamita's consistencies for ripping his own story to pieces.

 

[infantrysmarties]

Don't you hate it when you go out on a nice date and you forget there's a freshly strewn corpse on your foyer you forgot to clean up.

So annoying

LMAO

2 corpses*

 

[Zyke_Nowell]

There's no way NO ONE has ever thanked him for anything with the way he acts. Not even for holding a door open or helping the class? Buddy, why are you lying?

shhh! no plot holes okay?

 

[Remy88Lebeau]

I really don’t believe she was the only person to say thank you to MC. I guess I’ll have to go back and check.

Edit:
She wasn't......i noticed they were all people MC got killed.

 

[Remy88Lebeau]

There's no way NO ONE has ever thanked him for anything with the way he acts. Not even for holding a door open or helping the class? Buddy, why are you lying?

3 people are shown thanking or about to thank him in the series.

 

[schvletzsky]

My man got that CEO of sex mindset, destroy humanity and your humanity for a hole.

10/10

Aliussy got him freaky

 

[Crusher_Man]

That was incredibly adorable