Ueno-san wa Bukiyou - Vol. 1 Ch. 1 - Rokka-kun

[Bainhardt]

@Zephyrus

If you want things to change, consider doing so by setting an example.

This is the part of what you said I agree with the most, and I feel it warrants its own response.

Leadership is about making your stance unquestionably clear to everyone beneath you (or around you, or equal to you... Whichever you'd like to frame it as so you don't feel like a dictator or w/e).
The staff members of this site, due to their positions, are expected to demonstrate leadership. Even if your stance is "we will not be taking any stance on this matter," you must make that universally understood, regardless of the repercussions it will have. If you cannot demonstrate that you stand for something, you are not fit to lead.

Obviously, it is a matter of discretion to determine which incidents warrant such clarification of position. I cannot offer insight into what parameters there could possibly be for gauging this, so I'm sorry I'm no help there. But in situations like what occurred this time, there appear countless users among the people on this site who want to know what you stand for. And I think the opinion you expressed to me is a perfectly sensible stance to take. What about it does not align with your duties as a staff member of MangaDex? What about it does not align with the values of MangaDex?

 

[Pauan]

@Entryhazard Facepalm said that asking for money is a scam because scanlating costs no money, and therefore asking for donations is wrong.

That is clearly not an attack, it is clearly an expression of a belief / opinion (that donations are wrong). It is not attacking a specific scanlator, because it is a general belief that can be applied to all scanlators which ask for money.

If you claim that that is an attack, you are saying that it is wrong to dislike donations. That's an extremely slippery slope: if that opinion is banned, what opinion will be banned next? Where should the line be drawn?

Do you really think that MangaDex is responsible for taking a side in this? That they should dictate whether people are allowed to like donations or not? That seems really extreme to me.

Consider this: if all scanlator groups asked for donations, and a new group came out that distinguished itself by having the explicit goal of NOT asking for donations, and they advertised themself as being against donations, would you view that as being an attack?

You can dislike Facepalm, you can think that they shouldn't have done that, or think that their approach was too crude, but I think it's going too far to claim that it is an attack and that they shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinion or beliefs.

----

@Bainhardt MangaDex aren't "leaders" though, they just provide a platform which other people can use. They have some very basic ground rules, but beyond that they take a hands-off approach, which is what they should do.

So I think it's weird to view MangaDex as being somehow responsible for other people's behavior. It's like claiming that your internet company is responsible for the bad things you say on the internet. Or claiming that a store is evil for selling knives to people, because some people get stabbed.

I do agree with you that MangaDex should be more vocal about the fact that they have a very hands-off approach. I'm not sure how much it will actually help, but at least nobody will be confused.

 

[Entryhazard]

@Sunny @Pauan Facepalm scanlators explicitly stated in the comments they wanted to cause Hatigarm trouble ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Tarage]

@Sunny Cease breathing.

 

[Sunny]

@Entryhazard
The credit page may have that intention, but formally there was no direct attack, so I think the blame lies on the group that couldn't handle the criticism in a mature, professional way ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@Tarage
If you don't have anything of value to contribute then please shut up, you are embarrassing yourself.

 

[Zephyrus]

@Bainhardt
Firstly, staff is not a monolithic block of similar thought. We agree on some things and disagree on others. While @Holo's word is final, he treats staff like a council and takes every opinion into consideration. Often, we discuss policy internally for hours and sometimes days on end. We don't stop until we all come to a relative consensus, even if we all aren't quite happy with it. I'd like to take a corny moment to say how appreciative I am of my fellow staff. While we may not always agree, I like to think we're a close knit group of people whose passion have made them much closer than ordinary internet friends.

When I make statements, I am representing staff. It would be rude at the least and damaging at the worst if I expressed an opinion that was unpopular and taken as gospel by readers who assumed all staff felt as I did. That is why I take care to exaggerate what is my personal opinion when I have one.

As far as taking a stand, so to speak, I believe that overall, staff believes that making an announcement every time there is an incident like this doesn't do anything but perpetuate drama. In this case, little of value was lost in our eyes. What point would there be in blowing up the situation even further?

In my personal opinion, I would like to see MD take what I feel to be more morally correct stances in certain areas. It would be amazing if we could provide leadership in areas like conduct and etiquette. But not everyone shares my moral viewpoints and really, as I said earlier, our purpose and goal does not include providing a moral compass.

 

[Tarage]

@Sunny And you don't contribute at all.

 

[Teasday]

_{@Bainhardt posted:}

Leadership is about making your stance unquestionably clear to everyone beneath you (or around you, or equal to you... Whichever you'd like to frame it as so you don't feel like a dictator or w/e).
The staff members of this site, due to their positions, are expected to demonstrate leadership. Even if your stance is "we will not be taking any stance on this matter," you must make that universally understood, regardless of the repercussions it will have. If you cannot demonstrate that you stand for something, you are not fit to lead.

Not an official MangaDex™ opinion:

I don't think we are leaders though. I don't remember this site ever implying we were taking on that mantle, not to even mention we're not in a position to just presume we have leadership over anyone. As far as I'm concerned, we're here to give scanlators a platform, not to tell them how to conduct their business. Being the big popular aggregator isn't something that de facto allows us to hold authority over people, moral or otherwise. As an occasional scanlator myself, I'd personally be pretty offended at the idea of MangaDex being some kind of a moral arbiter of scanlation when nobody elected them (well, us) for that job.

As far as I know, our stance is that we never volunteered ourselves to be referees for scanlator fights and as such it's not our place to start making official proclamations about them. From what I understand, that makes some people think we don't respect scanlators, but I don't see how taking sides would be any more respectful. When you bow down in one direction, you're shoving your ass in the other.

edit: If someone feels that we do have the moral duty to mediate drama between scanlators, I'm curious to hear why. Don't let my protest here detract you.

 

[Zephyrus]

@Tarage
You were warned about your behavior and continued to post insults without contributing to the discussion.

Please take two days off from commenting and consider how to post more thoughtfully in the future.

Thanks,

Zeph

 

[rhino36]

Me in this thread
https://youtu.be/p_EVtdF4xeQ?t=125

 

[Bainhardt]

@Teasday

I don't think we are leaders though.

Good to know. This provides more insight into why none of you ever act like leaders.

Am I missing something here? On what grounds, then, do you create rules, enforce rules, and execute punishments? I will yield that you seem to have established the rules as broadly as possible so as to avoid having to stand behind them as often as possible, but that doesn't work forever. Every rule and every small enforcement is demonstrating some leadership to those who witness it. Are you just too cowardly to take your positions before a larger scale? Afraid of fracturing the userbase by stating a belief? Regardless of whether my actions today are viewed as foolhardy, unnecessary, inflammatory, totally idiotic, or however they may be, I feel I have demonstrated more courage than any of you have managed to display even once.

I now understand why so many people seem to address the staff here as though they refuse to stand for anything, and it is because you admit openly that you will not.

 

[Pauan]

@Bainhardt I don't think it's fair to call MangaDex staff cowardly because they don't follow your personal moral opinions.

According to MangaDex's rules, Facepalm did nothing wrong. So are you suggesting that MangaDex should change the rules? What sort of changes should be made? How can we be sure that those new rules will be fair? What if people disagree on what the rules should be?

Morality is really hard, and everybody has their own opinion on what is moral and what isn't. That's why the legal system of countries tend to use objective laws that can be proven (e.g. don't murder, don't rape, don't steal, etc.)

I view MangaDex as having a similar role as the government: they provide some basic rules, but they don't "lead" the people (that would be communistic / authoritarian / fascist). Instead, it's up to the people themself to decide on what is moral and what isn't.

I think it's incorrect to think that having power automatically means you must now wield that power to enforce morality. That is the attitude of authoritarian dictatorships, or religious dogma.

It isn't black and white: MangaDex can have the power to enforce their rules, without using that power to enforce morality.

I personally find it very disturbing that some people think MangaDex has some sort of duty to enforce morality. That may seem like a nice idea when MangaDex is enforcing YOUR morality, but what about when MangaDex starts to enforce a morality you disagree with?

 

[Teasday]

_{@Bainhardt posted:}

Am I missing something here? On what grounds, then, do you create rules, enforce rules, and execute punishments?

Just in case, still my personal opinions:

On the grounds that it's our site, naturally. The rules are there to keep the site overall as enjoyable as we know how to make it and to keep us (and scanlation in general) running for as long as we can. The rules apply to our site only and they're not meant as guiding rules for this entire hobby or anything. MangaDex itself is an aggregator website, not the leaders of scanlation, which seemed to be what you were talking about before.

We don't create and enforce rules and punishments for the body of scanlators because that would be arrogant and presumptious, we do them for our site.

_{@Bainhardt posted:}

Are you just too cowardly to take your positions before a larger scale? Afraid of fracturing the userbase by stating a belief?

I'm at a loss as to what position you'd like us to take and for what reason we should be taking it. This being our site, I believe, gives us the right to decide where we'd like certain topics to be discussed, but what makes us the people with the right to decide who's wrong and right about matters like scanlating for donations? If you want staff members to state their personal beliefs about controversial scanlation-related topics, that's fine, but I don't think my feelings about them should influence who's allowed to post on the site and who isn't.

If you're interested, personally I don't give a damn about donations, I don't think it's smart or even particularly funny to make veiled jabs at other groups or people in credits pages, nor do I think chapter comments are the place to hash it out and derail discussion about the chapter itself (but I don't really care much about comments anyway so I'm probably biased there).

I don't know if we're talking past each other or if it's a matter of perspective, but I don't think publically denouncing one group for the benefit of their competitor would be particularly courageous. Other than that, to me it seems like our options would be to ban credits pages outright or heavily police them from any sign of drama, or leave them alone and let people fight about it and let them take over the chapter comments, killing off any discussion about the chapter itself. I'm pretty sure no matter what we do, some group is going to get mad about their rights being trampled over.

 

[Bainhardt]

@Teasday I see. Reflecting on much of this, it may have been wildly delusional of me to expect at any time that the staff of this website were trying to create a community. I can't even recall if there was a thread or a forum post somewhere that planted this idea. At this point, it is obvious that is not the intention. If that was ever, at any point, suggested, I apologize for misunderstanding, because it is clear now that is simply not true.

Also, I never meant to suggest you were the "leaders of scanlation" - simply the leaders of a website that holds influence, particularly among scanlators and their audiences.
But you are not leaders in the slightest. Again, I apparently misunderstood.

We don't create and enforce rules and punishments for the body of scanlators because that would be arrogant and presumptious, we do them for our site.

Creating rules for your website is creating rules for the body of scanlators who use this website. Were I to choose to scanlate for audiences elsewhere I would have ultimate freedom, but here, my releases abide your (admittedly extraordinarily lax) rules, and thereby, your loosest set of beliefs regarding what makes "acceptable" scanlation.

Much of what you said at the end is true; no matter which choice you make, it will not satisfy everyone. Funny how that always results in no choice whatsoever being made.

I would like to state here that I will never again make the mistake of assuming staff will make difficult decisions or stand for beliefs at any time in the future. My work will go unspoiled by "drama" and there is no need to worry that I will ever again repeat my actions of today. I understand now everything I sought to when I began, and I'm satisfied. Thank you to everyone who communicated with me and helped me to understand.

 

[Teasday]

_{@Bainhardt posted:}

I see. Reflecting on much of this, it may have been wildly delusional of me to expect at any time that the staff of this website were trying to create a community.

I don't really know how you got that from my opinions, but the community I, at least, am trying to create is the same as it always has been: a place where scanlators can have an audience and be motivated to keep doing what they're doing, and where manga fans can find an endless stream of content to read (and maybe even talk about!). It's what I wanted after batoto's closure notice as a random weeb who was worried that his mango and waifu supply would be cut off and his new hobby find no readers and it still is.

I'm also a depressed introvert so yes, in a sense I don't really care about making sure the community is particularly close-knit, friendly or anything, but that's why I'm a code monkey and we have staff who find fulfillment in that aspect. I'm not interested in being a moral leader, I don't think I have the right to be a leader and I can't believe anyone would want me to be one. If that makes me a coward then I'm sorry to disappoint. My opinions might be different if you explained why we should be taking sides as I asked, but since all I have to go on is what you've written it seems like you think it's simply cowardly not to do so. I tried giving reasons as to why I don't necessarily see it as courageous either, but I can't convince myself that cowardice is a good reason alone anyway. I suppose the goals we have for this site just might differ.

I once again want to remind everyone that what I've been talking about is my own goals and feelings as they relate to this website, and while I naturally have some influence over MangaDex's direction as a staff member, I'm not making proclamations on behalf of the entire site and its staff. Staff members will continue to stand for whatever beliefs they see fit, and one of my beliefs is that we aren't and shouldn't be in a position of implicit power over scanlators, except perhaps when it comes to making sure this site continues to serve as a platform that both scanlators and readers want to come to. Not all our moves are perfect to that end, and that's when it good to call us out on it so we can review what to do about it.

Anyway, thanks for the talk, it was nice to vent about this for a bit. Sorry if it left a sour taste, that wasn't my intention at all. Also, it might sound disingenuous and off-topic at this point, but I'd like to thank you for the work you're doing with Ueno-san in particular. For a while after chapter 3 I was wondering if I should take it up myself, but thankfully you picked it up before I could, lol.

 

[Groomp]

@baindheart
fuck, the worst part is that i even agree with the (possible) center of your argument underneath all of the toxicity.
the inconsistency aof moderation and vague rules have caused quite an issue in this situation and it may need further addressing, but your branniganian take on neutrality and moral grandstanding almost magnetically goddamn repelled me.
but hey, if i want to learn how to transmogrify any stance into a cocktail of smug self-righteousness and a brobdingnagian displays of pig-headedness, i have a quick reference.
kudos in that regard.

 

[Daktyl]

I keep seeing mangadex staff mention helping scanlators, but I have yet to see any example of this other than mangadex.com, and that’s literally just the MD staff installing a Wordpress instance for you.

I’d like to know about more things you’re doing for the community or to help scanlators. Other than vague rules pissing them off and stealing their hard work after an arbitrary amount of time, of course. And making money off it.

 

[Zephyrus]

@Daktyl
Your comments are worse than useless and counterproductive. You hate anything related to MangaDex with astonishing single-mindedness. I don't know how you expect any one of us to carry on a conversation with you when you don't actually, nor do you plan to, listen to anything we say.

 

[TheOneWhoSighs]

@zephyrus

What's really unbecoming and distasteful is that scanlators behave like children and feel the need to taunt each other, for whatever reason, via credit pages or whatever.

Literally sounds like the exact stuff 4chan would pull.

The rules we have in place are there to enforce basic civility, lest we become the MAL forums or a chan.

See previous comment

I used to believe that we needed rules in place to enforce good behavior but after the amount of reports on manga comments and forums alone (we had to hire two more forum mods in the space of 3 months just to keep up) I quite agree with my fellow staff that it's too much work for too little reward. If you want things to change, consider doing so by setting an example.

Please don't break the rules 4channers, pretty please? We can't see a reason to enforce them, so we're counting on you guys not to predictably act like the trolls you are. Pwetty pwease?



I hate to be that guy, (I don't actually). But it seems to me that there's conflicting goals here with your opinion. You don't want to kick the 4channers off, because they often contribute. And you don't want to just leave your forum controlled by them because they're toxic af.

I don't see how you can accomplish both of those things without heavy handed moderation.

You've basically lucked out until your platform could get big enough for the trolls to really come on and start causing chaos. You either sit by and let the chaos happen with loose ineffective rules, thus becoming one of the chans. A valid option mind you.

Or you don't and you start implementing tools for better administration. And even community moderation via downvotes and the like.

I actually don't want to be the one to tell you this. But 4chan has some pretty heavy handed moderation outside of pol.

 

[Daktyl]

@Zephyrus
I am terribly sorry that I come off that way. I don't mean to hate on MangaDex as a whole. There are many things I like about it: the overall design, the functionality of the reader (especially since teaseday added the ability to jump to pages in long strip mode, <3 that dude), most of the rules, and even some of the staff.

What I don't like are things I keep pointing out. There are specific rules that I take offense to for a site claiming to be helpful to scanlators, and obviously other scanlators agree with me. On top of that, the staff often have a "we can do no wrong" attitude toward things when they go wrong, like this thread for example. Obviously, the meraki scans thing was mostly overblown, and continues to be so. They left because you refused to enforce your own rules. You didn't even have to change any of them, the original credit page violated the "direct personal attacks" (since it was obviously aimed at the previous uploader of that series, no matter how vaguely it was worded), as well as "don't be disruptive" 5.4.2. The image was designed to troll, and was in no way aimed at constructive criticism. It was designed to inflame the previous group.

Other points I've brought up in previous threads are also things that not just I have issue with. I do try to listen to you, but when all of your responses are "we're not going to listen or tell you anything because you hate us", what am I supposed to do? The only reason I keep posting is because I've rarely ever gotten a solid response to my questions, just a bunch of dodging or ignoring. If only a few points of contention were fixed, I'd stop being so adamant about criticizing these points, but nothing ever gets fixed. I want to like MangaDex so bad, because it's a good website to read manga, but it's not a very scanlator-friendly website as it stands.