Usogui - Vol. 41 Ch. 448 - Air Poker
- Thread starter MangaDex
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Nice water and air poker
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thanks for the batch when can we expect the next one?
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I see how you can play tactically with this. The upper players aren't obliged to create the strongest possible hand. If they think they are going to lose the hand anyways, they can choose to create a weaker hand in order to preserve or use up key cards for the future rounds. Of course, predicting the loss and the critical cards requires serious thinking skills, since they have less information than the lower players.
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@Sinful_egg
This batch is still ongoing!
This batch is still ongoing!
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I don't see how this is a game for them. This is just math, they don't really have a choice. Since they can't see the hand of their allies (Baku or Lalo) I don't see a situation where they can not choose the strongest hand. They don't have enough informations.
Please enlight me
Please enlight me
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Takumi posing on page 7 like he's straight out of Jojo, lol.
What exactly does he mean by "you will lose the round" on the last page? Baku/Lalo will lose the hand?
This rule seems to imply that, as we had considered a possibility before, 8 and 63 will just end up dead cards if played too late.
What exactly does he mean by "you will lose the round" on the last page? Baku/Lalo will lose the hand?
This rule seems to imply that, as we had considered a possibility before, 8 and 63 will just end up dead cards if played too late.
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@catx3 thank you for the generosity!! you guys are the gift that keeps on giving in this time of lockdown.
Previously i thought when the card is picked, the lower number is calculated first. This seems not to be the case with the light of the new infos we get. Based on the 100s time limit, its probably decided by who picked the card first in those 100 second. But If the rule is tight, there will be no way of knowing what the opponent's number are and no way of communicating with the gamblers below. There are not enough info for Hal/Fukurou to devise a strategy to hijack a card or losing on pupose. Which will result in a boring and deterministic match, resulting in Baku losing the whole match, because of how shitty his card is compared to Lalo's.
Previously i thought when the card is picked, the lower number is calculated first. This seems not to be the case with the light of the new infos we get. Based on the 100s time limit, its probably decided by who picked the card first in those 100 second. But If the rule is tight, there will be no way of knowing what the opponent's number are and no way of communicating with the gamblers below. There are not enough info for Hal/Fukurou to devise a strategy to hijack a card or losing on pupose. Which will result in a boring and deterministic match, resulting in Baku losing the whole match, because of how shitty his card is compared to Lalo's.
Knowing the nature and ridiculousness of this comic. There is probably a loophole in the communications aspect of this match. I suspect the iron maiden's other purpose is to communicate discretely between referees and the supporting player, probably by radio. Because from what we see in the previous chapters, the referee's monitoring room is in a different room from where Hal and Fukurou is, Takumi is only there after the calamity because the room is located halfway between the monitoring room. Maybe what Baku is trying to do is not mnemonics, but he is trying to interfere with the radio signal the referee is using to communicate with Hal/Fukurou. Probably by scrathing the metal card to produce enough radio interference(I'm not even sure its possible realistically) to create several line of a morse code. Because transmitting a screeching metal sound seems impossible because of all the water and metal compartments around baku.
Based on the cover illustration of the comic, we probably will get 10-12 chapters detailing the match Fukurou and Hal went through. While the final cover of the protoporos arc will cover the final 2 rounds and the aftermath
Based on the cover illustration of the comic, we probably will get 10-12 chapters detailing the match Fukurou and Hal went through. While the final cover of the protoporos arc will cover the final 2 rounds and the aftermath
@naiyro
They have been told that they choose which card Lalo and Usogui will play
Sure it's math
But using the same deck, they can choose whether to use the strongest hand or save it for later, it will disturb each other later hand
And they don't know what number Lalo and Usogui hold
It's combination between math, probability and risk taking
Pretty sure the iron maiden is some device for risk taking or the "game" part that u mention
They have been told that they choose which card Lalo and Usogui will play
Sure it's math
But using the same deck, they can choose whether to use the strongest hand or save it for later, it will disturb each other later hand
And they don't know what number Lalo and Usogui hold
It's combination between math, probability and risk taking
Pretty sure the iron maiden is some device for risk taking or the "game" part that u mention
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This is really exciting. There were a ton of questions we all had going into this, like "why bother betting after the cards are revealed and when you have already learned the law?" but now we know why. This game has so many layers to it. I have to really give the author credit here with this game. A lot of times in gamble manga, the gambles are games that seem straightforward at first, and the thrill is watching how the protagonist unravels the opponents cheating, or the odd twists and turns a game will take as the protagonist unveils their master strategy like in the two Labyrinth games or say, in Kaiji's E-Card gamble. Compare, say, Hangman, where the object was discerning how Sadakuni was cheating, to this, where there's so much to keep track of. This is a game that just gets more and more complex the more we learn about it. I'm extremely impressed at the design of this gamble.
@Naiyro
They don't know the hand the other player will be making or even the card that the other player is using. On a basic level they want to make the strongest possible hand to help their allies down below win as many hands as possible, however as we've seen there are some unwinnable matchups between the cards. We see that, in the example of 35 vs 6, the only way 35 can beat 6 is in its strongest form, the straight flush. If 35 can't form a straight flush because the cards required to do so are lacking, then it cannot beat 6 at all. Of course, 6 is only so strong because of 4 of a kind aces, if those are gone then 6 is out the window as well. Lalo's 47, for example, is completely unbeatable in its strongest form, but it has to be played while it can still be formed, and Fukurou HAS to pick the royal straight flush for it to be the unbeatable 47. We saw what happens when you blindly make the strongest hand in this round; Hal made the strongest possible hand out of the 45, not knowing that Fukurou had 47 and there was a card overlap. This caused the calamity.
The gamble they can take is to not make the highest possible hand. Remember, they are only punished if they don't match their hand to the numbers, use a card that was used previously, or simply don't pick in the time limit. Depending on what cards they pick, they can save cards that they can use later, making some of the weaker cards stronger because they have more cards to play with, or possibly interfering with the others stronger hands. Of course, the cards they pick are known after the match, so those cards that were saved or used are known by the opponent. However, this information is NOT given to Lalo and Baku ; they don't actually know if their cards are being made into the strongest possible hands or not, or the actual cards in the deck that have been used by their partners. That's just an assumption we've all had because presumably thats the way the game has gone to this point. Additionally, Fukurou and Hal don't know the other numbers Lalo and Baku have in their hands either; they only know the ones being played at that moment.
They are encouraged to make the strongest possible hand because a single round could mean death for their partner, but they are not required to do so. And as we've seen, making every hand the strongest possible hand can backfire ; Hal and Baku experienced the calamity because they tried to make the strongest possible 45, and their cards overlapped with 47.
The mindgames are extremely complex and multilayered in this game, and we see now why Baku is (presumably) trying to communicate with Hal. Hal and Fukurou don't know the opponents cards or the other numbers their partners have. Baku and Lalo do not know the hands their partners are even picking, let alone the hands their opponents are picking. This is why resolving the law drives you deeper into madness; we thought Lalo and Baku had a ton of information to go with and that they would instantly recognize a winning or losing card, but in reality they have been betting blind. I'll use an example to illustrate this
Say, for example, Baku tries to play 25, his ace card. Hal could:
1. Pick the strongest hand and have Baku simply play straightforward and win. This is what we've been under the assumption that was happening, that all cards are required to make the strongest hand possible. Upon seeing 25, Lalo could respond by folding immediately, because he would recognize 25 as an ace card. If Lalo bets, then Baku takes him for everything.
2. Pick a lesser hand that still forms 25. Without communication, Baku would not know that his 25 is not an ace card anymore and has been devalued. If he plays it straightforward and bets on 25, and Lalo also assumes the 25 is the full value straight, Lalo could fold and Baku would win with a weaker hand. This could possibly interfere with Lalo's remaining cards (perhaps even causing a calamity if he forces a card overlap). However, if Lalo were to call it, and Fukurou made a stronger hand than Hal's janky 25, Baku could lose with his "ace card".
Both sections of the tower are, right now, still mostly playing blind. If they somehow find a way to communicate, they can tell their partners what hand they have, but not their opponents. If both sides figure out a way to do this, then the game can start to resemble traditional poker, where you could bluff and gamble. In my example, if they could communicate, Baku could tell Hal what he wants, and Hal could make the hand Baku desires. Then Baku would know what he is betting on rather than a hunch or assumption. Of course, they would still not know the hand Lalo and Fukurou are forming (other than the hint of the number it has to form, assuming they don't make a clusterfuck hand and take a loss for no reason other than to screw up some other hand).
As well, it looks like losing a hand is not without cost for the upper players; whatever happens in that iron maiden seems to really fuck them up. Hal's brain looks fried.
Layer all these hurdles the players have to overcome with the inherent time limits of oxygen and "no delaying" rules of the game, and it becomes an incredibly stressful situation and an insanely deep gamble.
@Naiyro
They don't know the hand the other player will be making or even the card that the other player is using. On a basic level they want to make the strongest possible hand to help their allies down below win as many hands as possible, however as we've seen there are some unwinnable matchups between the cards. We see that, in the example of 35 vs 6, the only way 35 can beat 6 is in its strongest form, the straight flush. If 35 can't form a straight flush because the cards required to do so are lacking, then it cannot beat 6 at all. Of course, 6 is only so strong because of 4 of a kind aces, if those are gone then 6 is out the window as well. Lalo's 47, for example, is completely unbeatable in its strongest form, but it has to be played while it can still be formed, and Fukurou HAS to pick the royal straight flush for it to be the unbeatable 47. We saw what happens when you blindly make the strongest hand in this round; Hal made the strongest possible hand out of the 45, not knowing that Fukurou had 47 and there was a card overlap. This caused the calamity.
The gamble they can take is to not make the highest possible hand. Remember, they are only punished if they don't match their hand to the numbers, use a card that was used previously, or simply don't pick in the time limit. Depending on what cards they pick, they can save cards that they can use later, making some of the weaker cards stronger because they have more cards to play with, or possibly interfering with the others stronger hands. Of course, the cards they pick are known after the match, so those cards that were saved or used are known by the opponent. However, this information is NOT given to Lalo and Baku ; they don't actually know if their cards are being made into the strongest possible hands or not, or the actual cards in the deck that have been used by their partners. That's just an assumption we've all had because presumably thats the way the game has gone to this point. Additionally, Fukurou and Hal don't know the other numbers Lalo and Baku have in their hands either; they only know the ones being played at that moment.
They are encouraged to make the strongest possible hand because a single round could mean death for their partner, but they are not required to do so. And as we've seen, making every hand the strongest possible hand can backfire ; Hal and Baku experienced the calamity because they tried to make the strongest possible 45, and their cards overlapped with 47.
The mindgames are extremely complex and multilayered in this game, and we see now why Baku is (presumably) trying to communicate with Hal. Hal and Fukurou don't know the opponents cards or the other numbers their partners have. Baku and Lalo do not know the hands their partners are even picking, let alone the hands their opponents are picking. This is why resolving the law drives you deeper into madness; we thought Lalo and Baku had a ton of information to go with and that they would instantly recognize a winning or losing card, but in reality they have been betting blind. I'll use an example to illustrate this
Say, for example, Baku tries to play 25, his ace card. Hal could:
1. Pick the strongest hand and have Baku simply play straightforward and win. This is what we've been under the assumption that was happening, that all cards are required to make the strongest hand possible. Upon seeing 25, Lalo could respond by folding immediately, because he would recognize 25 as an ace card. If Lalo bets, then Baku takes him for everything.
2. Pick a lesser hand that still forms 25. Without communication, Baku would not know that his 25 is not an ace card anymore and has been devalued. If he plays it straightforward and bets on 25, and Lalo also assumes the 25 is the full value straight, Lalo could fold and Baku would win with a weaker hand. This could possibly interfere with Lalo's remaining cards (perhaps even causing a calamity if he forces a card overlap). However, if Lalo were to call it, and Fukurou made a stronger hand than Hal's janky 25, Baku could lose with his "ace card".
Both sections of the tower are, right now, still mostly playing blind. If they somehow find a way to communicate, they can tell their partners what hand they have, but not their opponents. If both sides figure out a way to do this, then the game can start to resemble traditional poker, where you could bluff and gamble. In my example, if they could communicate, Baku could tell Hal what he wants, and Hal could make the hand Baku desires. Then Baku would know what he is betting on rather than a hunch or assumption. Of course, they would still not know the hand Lalo and Fukurou are forming (other than the hint of the number it has to form, assuming they don't make a clusterfuck hand and take a loss for no reason other than to screw up some other hand).
As well, it looks like losing a hand is not without cost for the upper players; whatever happens in that iron maiden seems to really fuck them up. Hal's brain looks fried.
Layer all these hurdles the players have to overcome with the inherent time limits of oxygen and "no delaying" rules of the game, and it becomes an incredibly stressful situation and an insanely deep gamble.
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@BossCrab Yes, Thank you.
I understand well the implications of this game. What I don't understand is : Why can it be interesting to not choose the strongest hand? Not choosing the strongest hand saves cards for the next turns, yes and that allows previously weaker hands to be stronger. But what is the point ? Why is it interesting to saves these hands? There is no clues for neither Hal or Fukurou that the hands that were saved by choosing a weaker hand will help their ally and not the opponent.
Choosing a weaker hand is taking a big risk for the current turn and there is as much chance that this choice help for the next turn as there is that this choice backfire.
If there was a mean for them to receive informations from their allies that's a completely different story. But for now it seems that this is not the case.
I understand well the implications of this game. What I don't understand is : Why can it be interesting to not choose the strongest hand? Not choosing the strongest hand saves cards for the next turns, yes and that allows previously weaker hands to be stronger. But what is the point ? Why is it interesting to saves these hands? There is no clues for neither Hal or Fukurou that the hands that were saved by choosing a weaker hand will help their ally and not the opponent.
Choosing a weaker hand is taking a big risk for the current turn and there is as much chance that this choice help for the next turn as there is that this choice backfire.
If there was a mean for them to receive informations from their allies that's a completely different story. But for now it seems that this is not the case.
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@Naiyro
The specific circumstances that recommends saving cards comes down to "possibility" of Baku/Lalo having cards that are strict. Let's say Lalo plays 44 next, which should be Q-Q-Q-4-4. If Fukurou has been thinking this entire match through, even though he doesn't know Lalo's last card, at that point he's theoretically able to surmise that it's an extremely high numbered card. In this case, it's in his best interest to not use Queens to make that full house, and instead opt for 10-10-10-7-7. This is accounting for the risk of Baku's card eating through any kings. because in that case, Lalo's last high number card may not even form a hand. Similar situation with extremely low numbered cards, but that was played early enough to not be a problem.
Speaking hypothetically, if Lalo played 63 as his first card, I think Fukurou might specifically not make it a K-K-K-K-J, just because he knows that 47 is the best card in the match, and could be willing to bet on the possibility that it appears.
With all that said, you're right in that the lack of communication means there are very few scenarios in which either of the deciders have a reason to mess with the hands.
The specific circumstances that recommends saving cards comes down to "possibility" of Baku/Lalo having cards that are strict. Let's say Lalo plays 44 next, which should be Q-Q-Q-4-4. If Fukurou has been thinking this entire match through, even though he doesn't know Lalo's last card, at that point he's theoretically able to surmise that it's an extremely high numbered card. In this case, it's in his best interest to not use Queens to make that full house, and instead opt for 10-10-10-7-7. This is accounting for the risk of Baku's card eating through any kings. because in that case, Lalo's last high number card may not even form a hand. Similar situation with extremely low numbered cards, but that was played early enough to not be a problem.
Speaking hypothetically, if Lalo played 63 as his first card, I think Fukurou might specifically not make it a K-K-K-K-J, just because he knows that 47 is the best card in the match, and could be willing to bet on the possibility that it appears.
With all that said, you're right in that the lack of communication means there are very few scenarios in which either of the deciders have a reason to mess with the hands.
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Yeah, my assumption was that we were going to develop to a point where the partners can communicate. I guess it's an assumption on my point, but a couple other people have pointed out the possibility of Baku trying to signal Hal. Kind of taking a leap of faith there but it seems like a logical next step since Baku has been trying to figure out where Hal is and since it'd give them both a lot of information.
Sorry if it seems like I was rambling or trying to explain the obvious, I was just excited about where the gamble could go from here.
Sorry if it seems like I was rambling or trying to explain the obvious, I was just excited about where the gamble could go from here.
