If you look at a manga with betrayal in it, the MC is usually betrayed for some ridiculous reason like "The MC has black hair which makes him evil", "The MC is from another world so doesn't count as a human", or "The MC is too powerful and making us other heroes look bad, so lets spend several years infiltrating spies into his party to take revenge".
I find it very interesting that the MC is NEVER at fault for the betrayal, its always potrayed as ridiculous, over the top, moustache twirling villains who have nothing better to do other than betray the MC.
Its like if a guy kept telling you about how he gets "betrayed" by all the women he meets and its always for some ridiculous reason. It makes you wonder what the real story is. Feels like the author is taking his rage out on the world or getting back at certain people from his past.
How else are readers (many of whom are afflicted with "Not My Fault" syndrome IRL) supposed to seamlessly self-insert if the MC is held somewhat responsible, if not fully responsible for their friends/family/comrades turning on them?
IMO, I think the betrayal cliche in some manga series were popularized by webnovels. Specifically works like Shield Hero or Arifureta (the former betrayed by the king over his Shield Hero status, the latter betrayed by a bully who thought he was dead weight to them).
Your example is just from the simple writing one. The main interest of that story is whether waifus is lovable or not. If you want to comparing it with the reason less ridiculous, you shoul read 'seinen'. A typical generic shounen couldn't afford too much complex thinking. Of course there is a rare case. It's just a matter of marketing target reader
@justforthelulz : I dont know how that works, when I read manga like that, my reaction is to roll my eyes and wish I could punch the author. The MCs of these stories always make you want to punch them as well.
People keep saying its due to readers wanting to self insert, but i dont think thats true. I mean, look at harem series, they usually have some bland MC that just runs away from girls and acts like a total loser. Now, last I checked, nobody wants to self insert into a loser. People self insert into characters like Naruto, Ichigo or other shounen heroes...thats why battle shounen are so popular, tons of kids love to imagine themselves as one of the main characters. I mean, think about it, do you know anyone who admits to wanting to self insert into a loser? I bet you dont know anyone and will be hardpressed to find someone who does. Even when TV shows interview Otaku or whatever, they NEVER say anything about wanting to self insert into a loser, its always about how hot/cute the girls are.
@AAA1: But for some reason most translator groups boycott seinen series and will only translate the badly written ones where the MC gets op powers and a harem, gets betrayed for the lulz, etc, etc.
@Question2 i can't answer that. Each groups have their kind reasoning and tastes. It's just for being distinct i guess. Well shounen reader is always hold the most traffic reading in terms general popular manga. It's profitable
@Question2
About the self-insert thing, I always thought, that because the MCs were such losers in harem stories (or other, really), that certain people could better self-insert.
The idea behind that would be, that people want to see stories of characters, that are very much like the readers themselves, without any defining features for the most part, only that the characters get some benefits in their lives, like a harem full of cute girls. That is so the reader can better fantasize about this kind of scenario, with them inserted as the character. So its not about wanting to self-insert into a character, but that it is easier to do so, when the character resembles oneself.
Or thats atleast my theory on this topic.
Also, fuck that trope. It is the one thing, that I hate the fucking most and that just gives me a headache, because of how stupid it is.
Fuck Shield Hero, one of the best decisions to drop it before getting invested into it.
Betrayal could create a under dog archetype which usually these archetype grabs the reader attention. since it more interesting to see a a character a struggle and work their to the top.
Or betrayal is just easy plot device to use create conflict.
Or betrayal is easy MacGuffin serve to create a motivation for the MC to started its journey or whatever.
Basically betrayal is Macguffin, so the reason for the MC being betray itself is pointless. However it's the fact that the MC is betray that important.
@Question2 As some other people here have said, a big motivation for making the MC appear to be the uncontested victim in almost any betrayal scenario is at least partially based in the MC being designed as a vessel for readers to project themselves onto. I could go into a longer discussion on why even "loser" characters have a degree of self-insert appeal to some people, but to summarize it so I can get to my main point: as @Garakuta said, not every reader wants a power fantasy to insert themselves into; some people have difficulty relating to a character who's too capable, as the perceived difference between themselves and the MC is too great for their suspension of disbelief to tolerate.
My main point that I wanted to bring up, though, is a different matter altogether. I can't figure out exactly how I want to word this, so I apologize if it seems a little obtuse, but I'll try to make it make as much sense here as it does in my head. Basically, if an MC gets betrayed for a matter that is genuinely their fault, it means that the MC has done something demonstrably wrong. By showing that the MC has done something "deserving" of betrayal, they lose the moral high ground that illustrates them as unquestionably right, and the betrayer as unquestionably wrong. This could then lead to a scenario where readers will empathize or identify with the betrayer more than the betrayed; the fact that the betrayer will be "defeated" (this could mean actual combat, as in a battle manga, or by "social rejection" in the case of a non-violent work) is a foregone conclusion, as the story revolves around the MC, not the one who betrayed them. If the character audiences feel a greater empathy for then "loses", there's the possibility that the reader will lose interest in the story, or otherwise harbor ill will towards the MC for the foreseeable remainder of the plot. In turn, this can lead to a loss of readers, and if the losses become substantial enough, eventually result in cancellation.
Now, this doesn't mean an MC can never be portrayed as wrong, but there's a catch: the MC can only ever be wrong by way of "mistake" (brainwashing, acting while being misinformed/uninformed, etc.) or by way of "good intentions." (Being "wrong" for the greater good, or for a logical conclusion.) In essence, "The MC can never be portrayed in a negative light, unless that negative light can be excused or forgiven in some manner after the fact." You'll recognize that this goes back to @justforthelulz "Not My Fault" argument. A good example is found in the Enies Lobby Arc of the manga One Piece. Regardless of your feelings on the series, bear with me for a moment as I make my case (or if you don't care for the example at all, skip the Spoiler altogether and I'll wrap this up):
During the Enies Lobby Arc, the Strawhat Pirates have to retire their previous sailing vessel, the Going Merry/Merry Go. The simple fact of the matter is that the ship is too damaged to make the remainder of the journey, no matter how much sentimental value it may have--it WILL NOT survive the journey. Luffy, the captain of the crew, makes the call to abandon the ship and procure a newer, sturdier one to continue their adventure on. This decision doesn't sit well with Usopp, the ship's marksman and (at the time) shipwright, as the Going Merry/Merry Go is a gift from a dear friend of his, so he has an even greater stake in its continued existence than anyone else. This leads to Usopp being ejected from/leaving the crew, and even battling Luffy to what appears to be near-death.
In this case, a reader could make the argument that Luffy was in the wrong for not considering Usopp's feelings, and for being so "cold" in the process...but logically, it was the right choice which is the whole point: Luffy's perceived misdeeds can be excused because he was making the decision for a greater net positive--in this case, being able to continue their journey safely. Retiring the Going Merry/Merry Go, coming to blows with Usopp, and ejecting Usopp from the Straw Hat Pirates are all acts that can, and will, ultimately be forgiven because they were acts made in pursuit of the best possible outcome.
All of this ultimately comes back to what @NauseatingKittenz188 said: the act of betrayal is, for the most part, a plot device meant to create tension or intrigue that moves the story forward--the reason for that betrayal is generally (but not always) irrelevant. But taking it a step further, the MC having no personal responsibility in their betrayal is a consequence of making sure that the story progresses with as little collateral damage to the readership as possible. Not every reader likes this kind of plot device, as evidenced by some of the opinions expressed in this very thread. But writing, like any product, can follow one of two skews: the creator can hold firm to their original vision, and staunchly cater to a smaller or more specific demographic...or they can appeal to the broadest demographic that'll more likely ensure profitability and continuance of their creation. So, for the largest general audience, the MC must--for the most part--be above reproach.
All in all, this is just my two cents, and could be entirely subjective. If I've completely missed your point, feel free to ignore everything I've said. Otherwise, thank you for your time and patience, and have a good day.
@Garakuta: As I said, the thing is nobody ever says they are watching/reading these shitty series to self insert. Its always for the girls. People want to self insert into "cool" characters that are not themselves. Naruto and other shounen heroes for example. Its like why kids want to pretend to be super heroes in a park but not a loser. You dont see kids in the park pretending to be losers do you?
You will note that series with shitty MCs but no hot girls tend to not be popular...and are either seinen stories where the point is to tell an actual story (in which case theres no self insert element) or get axed very quickly.
@Sleeper : The thing is the author does not even bother to try to come up with a plausible reason for the betrayal. It doesnt need to be the MC's fault. E.G. Berserk's betrayal, the japanese version of Count of Monte Cristo, etc. They all at least make sense.
They always come up with ridiculous reasons that can be summarized as "for the lulz". It completely ruins the setup when the reader is thinking "hahaha, no, seriously? hahahahaha". The reader should be invested in the revenge, not facepalming and laughing at the author.
It would be like if you submitted a story to a western publisher where the MC was betrayed because he had black hair...the publisher is just going to laugh at you, because its so ridiculous.
@Question2
"It would be like if you submitted a story to a western publisher where the MC was betrayed because he had black hair...the publisher is just going to laugh at you, because its so ridiculous."
I think it may be some misunderstanding between western and japanese culture.
If you look from the outside culture perspective on european past:
Ppl in middle ages have killed all black chickens and cats. Witch hunts, werewolf hunts.
If you add to that the way both nazis and USSR treatet ppl like jews, gypsies, and so on.
You may think that all ppl with black hair would be treated like witches and devils.
I have no idea how to answer your question other then this bad betrayal/revange story is a trope.
The same way as many BL mangas have bad body proportions.
Why do they have bad proportions? Is the artist just some amateur?
I would say, yes but it's too consistent. It must be a trope of this genre.
@Question2
I would think, that is because the people I described are the silent majority. Tbh, now that I think seriously about it, this really is just a theory. Im not exactly an expert on this topic, so I dont know the exact reason, why shows like Shield Hero and Arifureta are so popular. It might very well be, that, for example, these betrayal-plots are not particularly liked by the audience, but that they are also not particularly hated, that they are tolerated (I dont know anything about the Japanese fandoms of these shows, so like I said, its just an example) and that they, like you said, like the show for its other features. So that in general it 'looks like' these betrayal-plots are popular. There are probably more possible examples for 'why' exactly betrayal-plots could be falsely popular.
The thing is, there are definitely people, that prefer the self-insert, that resembles themselve more. To begin with, you cant really have a MC that doesnt resemble you at all, you have to relate to him in some kind of way or the story wont be all to interesting to you. I believe that is true for most kind of stories. Further, because of that I think its very likely, that there are many people, that relate more to the 'normal' kind of characters (like I said before, its not about wanting to relate to character, its about ending up relating to him), and that these people are in generally a more 'silent' group, in the sense, that they just by the books, but dont give any review publicly. So as I see it, it is not unlikely, that there is a silent majority, that likes these shallow betrayal-plots, but its just a theory anyways, and I am actually not all to commited on this opinion. I have no proof, after all.
@Sleeper your example of one piece is actually a good one definitive sound reasonable betrayal. So it's actually not in the context of a ridiculous one.
@LowSanity well yes. It's a trope of the genre. Even the trashy one surely at least a bunch that surely like it. So, it really is dependent on taste.
the publisher is just going to laugh at you, because its so ridiculous."
i actually searching this exact word on past conversation for trying to understand, but didn't found one. Why are you adding this?
And your example is exactly like that , that was questioned, why use simple reason like that? Some people are in reality could be ridiculous right? Well, that's their choice though
All in all, if you still want to find the reason. My opinion is.. i actually assumed based on something you should be validify yourself... well, i hope so. @Question2. For a type of people like this, is actually is like reading a lot. But in quantity not quality. So, the simple one is the best. Basically, they don't bother rating or commenting with an exception if they really want to express it. But if they irritated because not understand things, they definitely going to rate it worst. So, a good sounding reason one if they can't imagine it, it could be gone wrong. Hmm... certainly. Well, it's up to you to wisen up
i didn't read all your replies and I'm sorry, but i just want to leave my thoughts.
Not everyone needs a backstory. Not everyone needs a reason to do bad things. People are awful just because they can. Most of the time they don't even realize what they did until they are accounted for it. They do things just for jealousy, to feel superior, because other people do it, because it's fun, to display supremacy, etc... i don't need to empathize with every villain just because it's the trend of the moment. Everything needs a plot twist to be considered "good"?
A while ago I heard a news about 2 teenagers who burned alive a hobo. why? just like that? yes.
I don't think people are reading/watching this type of manga because they want to be the hero or they see themselves as the MC, but rather they root for a character that has suffered a villainy. Betrayal is just a common misdeed to make the reader empathize. Ridiculous? well.. some yes but they are just dumb evil villains doing dumb evil things that make you support the MC.
@AAA1
Sorry m8 but how did you searched it in a way you ignored the post before mine? I was quoting Question2 to the word.
If you don't like my exaple please explain me bad body proporcions in many BL mangas?
Are like 60% of all BL artist amateurs?
How do you explain some bad trope specific to certain genre with logic?
i have no idea. Please enlighten me.
