Witch Craft Works - Vol. 15 Ch. 91 - Takamiya-kun VS. Kayou, Part 5
- Thread starter MangaDex
- Start date
Contributor
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2019
- Messages
- 7,347
@DeadintheWater I think that's more due to him having a magical Terminator at his beck and call. Sort of like John Connor in T2 when the T-800 was about to kill those two buff dudes, there hasn't been a moment when Takamiya had to stop Ayaka from killing someone yet. Her ex-mom may be the first though.
@DeadintheWater I don't think anyone in story is upset at Takamiya not making Kagari 'submissive' the situations I remember it was more about the fact that she's super short tempered and when pissed will just go off on someone. People comment on that, but that's not about being submissive, but rather disciplined.
And @comeonnow0 You're kinda off on that <.< I have seen -many- series where people complain a lot about useless characters, especially useless characters that put the good characters in danger by virtue of their own really stupid decisions. It has nothing to do with male or females. The reason you're saying yuri/shojou ai wouldn't see complaints is more so because of different audience, not because of the gender of the characters. Lots of female characters get complained about for being useless. And also...Takamiya is actually for the most part useless <.< like legit, the only reason he's needed for the story is because the story is literally inside him. He 'kinda' solves problems, but it's either by virtue of him doing something anyone with an above room temperature IQ can do (which seems to be rare in this world) or by him doing something related to narrative/world mechanics that were bestowed upon him by plot convenience. -Takamiya- is not needed he could be replaced by anyone, even a generic shonen or shoujo protag and nothing would really change.
And @comeonnow0 You're kinda off on that <.< I have seen -many- series where people complain a lot about useless characters, especially useless characters that put the good characters in danger by virtue of their own really stupid decisions. It has nothing to do with male or females. The reason you're saying yuri/shojou ai wouldn't see complaints is more so because of different audience, not because of the gender of the characters. Lots of female characters get complained about for being useless. And also...Takamiya is actually for the most part useless <.< like legit, the only reason he's needed for the story is because the story is literally inside him. He 'kinda' solves problems, but it's either by virtue of him doing something anyone with an above room temperature IQ can do (which seems to be rare in this world) or by him doing something related to narrative/world mechanics that were bestowed upon him by plot convenience. -Takamiya- is not needed he could be replaced by anyone, even a generic shonen or shoujo protag and nothing would really change.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2020
- Messages
- 1,740
@WillLi I understand your statement, but I simply disagree. We see his past where he clearly had a more "traditional" role. I don't think anyone complains about his past personality. In more recent times, we see he does have a personality. Remember when Medusa was first introduced and Kagari was turned to stone? Evermillion, or however the name is going to be spelled, said she could turn Kagari back if Takamiya gave up his eyes. His response? Oh, thank goodness that that's all I have to do! Let's do it immediately!
That was a very good example of his personality and him making an effort to contribute in any way he could. Obviously, he didn't have to do it, but that still shows something. Or how about when he asked Kagari to learn to use magic? SHE was the one who tried to prevent him from learning anything related to combat. He wanted to be able to contribute in battle, but she wanted to simply protect him.
Like, there is a fair amount of Takamine either actively trying to not be "useless" only to be stopped by others or where he actually does put in a genuine effort in a non-combat role. People are just so quick to forget that.
That was a very good example of his personality and him making an effort to contribute in any way he could. Obviously, he didn't have to do it, but that still shows something. Or how about when he asked Kagari to learn to use magic? SHE was the one who tried to prevent him from learning anything related to combat. He wanted to be able to contribute in battle, but she wanted to simply protect him.
Like, there is a fair amount of Takamine either actively trying to not be "useless" only to be stopped by others or where he actually does put in a genuine effort in a non-combat role. People are just so quick to forget that.
@comeonnow0 But see now you just moved the goalpost. The argument is not that he has redeeming qualities, but rather that he is 'useless' or in other words, he doesn't really contribute to the story, be it through combat or anything. You literally just gave an example of his efforts not really amounting to anything because it wasn't needed.
And as for him not wanting to be useless, yes, he has tried to not be useless, but in the end it all still amounted to him being useless. Which is part of why his uselessness is so annoying. OP isekai protrags trying to hide and not use their power doesn't stop them from being OP. His efforts are meritable, but they still aren't changing the result.
And as for him not wanting to be useless, yes, he has tried to not be useless, but in the end it all still amounted to him being useless. Which is part of why his uselessness is so annoying. OP isekai protrags trying to hide and not use their power doesn't stop them from being OP. His efforts are meritable, but they still aren't changing the result.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2020
- Messages
- 1,740
@WillLi I quote myself. "Obviously, he didn't have to do it, but that still shows something." That still shows something. Guess what happened after he said he's okay with losing his eyes? Evermillion was impressed by his personality. She reconfirmed his "pure" personality and his selflessness. He did not lose his eyes. His offer of giving up his eyes was not meaningless because Evermillion was still impressed by it and willingly turned Kagari back to normal in addition to being willing to help them out more.
My statements were never about him having redeeming qualities. Yes, he does, but that's not my point. It is wrong to call him "useless" or to say that he doesn't contribute to the story because he, his character, his personality, very clearly does. Another example? With Alcina (or however the name gets written), it is literally because of his unending and "pure" personality that he gets exonerated for a bit. Alcina tells the two workshop witches to tail Takamiya for a while. Guess what they observe? Not merely nothing bad. They observe unending good and niceness. A bit over the top, yes, but that is a different criticism from "useless". It is only because of his personality that Alcina was basically willing to withdraw the accusations. Almost anyone else? Alcina probably would've just turned them into furniture. Takamiya, with his particular personality, set this current scenario up.
Honestly, if you disagree with this, then you might be changing the goalposts. Your previous comments were about how anyone else could've replaced the role of Takamiya Honoka just fine. This particularly "pure" personality of his drives the story in a way that couldn't be replaced by someone else.
My statements were never about him having redeeming qualities. Yes, he does, but that's not my point. It is wrong to call him "useless" or to say that he doesn't contribute to the story because he, his character, his personality, very clearly does. Another example? With Alcina (or however the name gets written), it is literally because of his unending and "pure" personality that he gets exonerated for a bit. Alcina tells the two workshop witches to tail Takamiya for a while. Guess what they observe? Not merely nothing bad. They observe unending good and niceness. A bit over the top, yes, but that is a different criticism from "useless". It is only because of his personality that Alcina was basically willing to withdraw the accusations. Almost anyone else? Alcina probably would've just turned them into furniture. Takamiya, with his particular personality, set this current scenario up.
Honestly, if you disagree with this, then you might be changing the goalposts. Your previous comments were about how anyone else could've replaced the role of Takamiya Honoka just fine. This particularly "pure" personality of his drives the story in a way that couldn't be replaced by someone else.
I think it's seriously missing the point to complain about Takamiya being useless - he's spent most of his life being /forced/ to be useless, despite (or because of) what seems to be some pretty extraordinary innate power.
Takamiya as a character is dominated by two things: that innate power, along with an extremely strong sense of justice and fairness, and a very great capacity for empathy. He was being trained up by Kazane to use his power, which would have resulted in him being very far from useless (or rather, if he was still useless after that then any complaints would be entirely justified). However, after running into Ayaka his empathy and sense of justice forced him to help her however he could, which sent him down the path that lead to him contracting with Evermillion, his power and memory being sealed, and his life being reshaped into what we see at the start of the story. Everything since then has been driven by his innate character traits, and in particular his bond with Ayaka, which was initially driven by his sense of empathy and justice but which quickly grew far beyond that (on both sides). As soon as he understood enough about the magical world to get a sense of what Ayaka was doing for him he's been trying to help her, even if it meant taking serious risks - a lot of the reason he had to /stop/ taking risks was because of the magical bond that put /her/ at risk when he put /himself/ in danger, not because he wasn't willing to brave danger in his own right. He's done just about everything he can to grow stronger so that he doesn't have to rely on Ayaka, and so that he can help her, and he's come a long way from where he was at the start of the story - he's got a lot further to go, obviously, but he's very far from being the clueless, useless idiot he started out as. And he's definitely still developing, even though he keeps coming up short - he's been dealing with some insanely powerful enemies (even Kazane had issues dealing with Kayou, after all). He's only just recently started learning magic after all, and a significant amount of his power is still sealed.
That growth arc is most of the point of the story (along with the growth of the relationship between Takamiya and Ayaka, though that's tightly intertwined with Takamiya's personal growth arc). You can make a decent argument that Takamiya's growth has been too slow, and that he's still not independent enough from Ayaka, but I think there you run into the question of who the main character in the story actually is - Ayaka or Takamiya, or some gestalt combination of both? If Takamiya is the MC then his growth arc is probably too slow, and I think the same applies if Ayaka is the MC, but if you consider the two of them together I find the development rather more satisfying (though still a bit slow - delayed mostly by the long fight scenes, honestly).
Takamiya as a character is dominated by two things: that innate power, along with an extremely strong sense of justice and fairness, and a very great capacity for empathy. He was being trained up by Kazane to use his power, which would have resulted in him being very far from useless (or rather, if he was still useless after that then any complaints would be entirely justified). However, after running into Ayaka his empathy and sense of justice forced him to help her however he could, which sent him down the path that lead to him contracting with Evermillion, his power and memory being sealed, and his life being reshaped into what we see at the start of the story. Everything since then has been driven by his innate character traits, and in particular his bond with Ayaka, which was initially driven by his sense of empathy and justice but which quickly grew far beyond that (on both sides). As soon as he understood enough about the magical world to get a sense of what Ayaka was doing for him he's been trying to help her, even if it meant taking serious risks - a lot of the reason he had to /stop/ taking risks was because of the magical bond that put /her/ at risk when he put /himself/ in danger, not because he wasn't willing to brave danger in his own right. He's done just about everything he can to grow stronger so that he doesn't have to rely on Ayaka, and so that he can help her, and he's come a long way from where he was at the start of the story - he's got a lot further to go, obviously, but he's very far from being the clueless, useless idiot he started out as. And he's definitely still developing, even though he keeps coming up short - he's been dealing with some insanely powerful enemies (even Kazane had issues dealing with Kayou, after all). He's only just recently started learning magic after all, and a significant amount of his power is still sealed.
That growth arc is most of the point of the story (along with the growth of the relationship between Takamiya and Ayaka, though that's tightly intertwined with Takamiya's personal growth arc). You can make a decent argument that Takamiya's growth has been too slow, and that he's still not independent enough from Ayaka, but I think there you run into the question of who the main character in the story actually is - Ayaka or Takamiya, or some gestalt combination of both? If Takamiya is the MC then his growth arc is probably too slow, and I think the same applies if Ayaka is the MC, but if you consider the two of them together I find the development rather more satisfying (though still a bit slow - delayed mostly by the long fight scenes, honestly).
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2018
- Messages
- 4,808
@comeonnow0 If you actually think either of those amount to not being useless then your literary analysis skills are lacking. What you are stating as examples are cases of an author literally making the narrative progress by virtue of the character existing. Takamiya didn't 'do' anything in those situations. He just existed and that was enough. If you stretched it then you could say Evermillion was him doing something, but there's big problems with that. These are massively 'forced' situations narrativly, and they barely made any sense happening in the first place. But then they magically get fixed by shoving a quality of the main character in our face. That's not really being useful as a character.
@himi-cat you're making the same mistake comeonnow is making. Everything you listed, while true they are things that happened, they didn't amount to anything in terms of actually turely moving the story. "Useless" does not mean incompetent, useless means there is no use for it, it accomplishes nothing or merit. Having a super sports car sitting in your garage doing nothing could be 'useless'. It's a fully capable car, and more powerful than what most people have, but that doesn't mean it's being 'useful'. it -could- be useful, it -is- versatile, it -has- potential, but it is not actively being useful.
Takamiya serves a few main purposes in this, and it's not really to be of 'use'. 1 It's to make this story appealing to the audience of the magazine it's published in, by giving the "MC" a tall attractive girlfriend. 2, he was a way to pull us into the developed magic world from the perspective of someone who was equally as clueless as to what is going on. And 3, he is the 'measuring stick', his presence there reminds us how crazy things are around us, so we don't end up like DBZ where it just feels 'normal' for people to have all these crazy powers.
Now just because he's a 'useless' character doesn't mean the story is awful nor does it mean I hate it, honestly I think it's intentional by the author that he's useless. But we're 91 chapters in, and any 'achievements' Takamiya has were literally stumbled into. Yes he -tries- to be of use, but while trying is good, Yoda said it best "Do or do not, there is no try." Trying to not be useless does not mean you are not currently being useless.
@himi-cat you're making the same mistake comeonnow is making. Everything you listed, while true they are things that happened, they didn't amount to anything in terms of actually turely moving the story. "Useless" does not mean incompetent, useless means there is no use for it, it accomplishes nothing or merit. Having a super sports car sitting in your garage doing nothing could be 'useless'. It's a fully capable car, and more powerful than what most people have, but that doesn't mean it's being 'useful'. it -could- be useful, it -is- versatile, it -has- potential, but it is not actively being useful.
Takamiya serves a few main purposes in this, and it's not really to be of 'use'. 1 It's to make this story appealing to the audience of the magazine it's published in, by giving the "MC" a tall attractive girlfriend. 2, he was a way to pull us into the developed magic world from the perspective of someone who was equally as clueless as to what is going on. And 3, he is the 'measuring stick', his presence there reminds us how crazy things are around us, so we don't end up like DBZ where it just feels 'normal' for people to have all these crazy powers.
Now just because he's a 'useless' character doesn't mean the story is awful nor does it mean I hate it, honestly I think it's intentional by the author that he's useless. But we're 91 chapters in, and any 'achievements' Takamiya has were literally stumbled into. Yes he -tries- to be of use, but while trying is good, Yoda said it best "Do or do not, there is no try." Trying to not be useless does not mean you are not currently being useless.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2020
- Messages
- 1,740
@WillLi Yeah, you're just denying basic things in order to push your point. Takamiya convinces people to do things, and they are only convinced because of his character and personality. It is similar to if he were a persuader or a professional speaker. Does someone like a professional motivational speaker "do" anything? Based on what you're saying, a motivational speaker doesn't "do" anything. The audience members who listen to the speaker are the actors, but the motivational speaker is "useless".
That completely ignores the fact that the motivational speaker literally does their job title, motivates. We literally see that Evermillion used to be "evil" or malicious or impure, whatever. We see that she was "purified" because of young Takamiya's personality. We also see right here, in this current arc, that she could easily become "impure" again. So then what about earlier? When Kagari was petrified, Evermillion gave him the choice of giving up his eyes in order to save Kagari. He happily accepted. He did something. His personality convinced her to help them and to continue to help them. His personality motivated Evermillion. His personality motivates and keeps Kagari going throughout the entirety of the series. Kagari has her self-doubts. She is not this indomitable force who keeps moving forward without external reassurance. Takamiya provides emotional support. That is not the full extent of his "use", but it is part of it.
Here's an illustration. Imagine if Takamiya didn't have his personality. Imagine if he were more "average" in his goodness. Maybe a bit lazy. Generally okay-ish, but not super "pure". Would Kagari have been so willing to become his "knight" after her romanticized hero turned out to be so average? Maybe. She searched for him for years and idealized who he was. Imagine that all shattering after seeing an average Takamiya. Or maybe not. But it makes sense to think that his personality keeps her going.
Here's the flaw in your argument. You're denying him credit for what he does and instead saying it's the setting and circumstances that drive the story forward. Despite what you say, he is an active participant in this world and clearly shapes the world through his choices and through his character.
That completely ignores the fact that the motivational speaker literally does their job title, motivates. We literally see that Evermillion used to be "evil" or malicious or impure, whatever. We see that she was "purified" because of young Takamiya's personality. We also see right here, in this current arc, that she could easily become "impure" again. So then what about earlier? When Kagari was petrified, Evermillion gave him the choice of giving up his eyes in order to save Kagari. He happily accepted. He did something. His personality convinced her to help them and to continue to help them. His personality motivated Evermillion. His personality motivates and keeps Kagari going throughout the entirety of the series. Kagari has her self-doubts. She is not this indomitable force who keeps moving forward without external reassurance. Takamiya provides emotional support. That is not the full extent of his "use", but it is part of it.
Here's an illustration. Imagine if Takamiya didn't have his personality. Imagine if he were more "average" in his goodness. Maybe a bit lazy. Generally okay-ish, but not super "pure". Would Kagari have been so willing to become his "knight" after her romanticized hero turned out to be so average? Maybe. She searched for him for years and idealized who he was. Imagine that all shattering after seeing an average Takamiya. Or maybe not. But it makes sense to think that his personality keeps her going.
Here's the flaw in your argument. You're denying him credit for what he does and instead saying it's the setting and circumstances that drive the story forward. Despite what you say, he is an active participant in this world and clearly shapes the world through his choices and through his character.
@Darklight99 I have, and they have all proven to be less of a useless waste of space then Takamiya.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2018
- Messages
- 4,808
@Darklight99 That's fine. I don't need to convince you of anything. Whether you believe it or not doesn't change the fact that Takamiya even among damsel characters is utterly pathetic.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2018
- Messages
- 4,808
@WillLi as I said, the point of the story is basically the growth of both Takamiya and Ayaka, together - if you consider only one of them without the other it doesn't make any real sense. Takamiya without Ayaka is basically defenceless and incapable of surviving the stuff that's thrown at him (particularly at the start); Ayaka without Takamiya is the listless uninterested and unfocused person we see in the flashbacks to before she started searching for him. Together they make one "normal" main character (in a way - it's obviously not a perfect analogy, but the more I look at it the better it fits), separated they just don't make sense. Ayaka is in many respects a broken individual, and particularly after having his power sealed so is Takamiya - they're both on a growth arc that will (presumably) see each of them heal and grow into themselves, while at the same time growing into the relationship they have. At least, that's how I read this story - obviously I'm not the author.
Takamiya's character traits, particularly his "pure heart", his empathy, and his sense of justice, are all pretty much essential to making the story work. Take those away and we never have a story at all - he never ends up where he was at the start of the whole thing, instead he'd have stayed in his apprenticeship and gone on to a completely different life. Throughout the story /his/ character traits drive major plot points, from rescuing Ayaka, to creating the contract with Evermillion, to accepting his punishment and having his power sealed, then through all the main arcs once he regains some agency and re-establishes his relationship with Ayaka. Hell, it's well established that anyone else with the same contract with Evermillion would basically have turned evil - Takamiya is the /only/ person who not only wouldn't turn evil, but would be able to form the mutually beneficial relationship with her that allowed him to take action at a number of points (particularly the fights against Medusa and Weekend).
I'm just not seeing how you can make a decent argument that /this/ particular character, with /these/ particular traits, isn't pretty fundamental to the story. Obviously you can replace him with someone different and tell a different story, but I really don't see how you can tell /this/ story, or something that's recognisable as this story, without this character or a character like him (or her, if you went with the original yuri version).
He can certainly be irritating at times, but unnecessary to the story, or a useless addition to the setting? I don't think so.
Takamiya's character traits, particularly his "pure heart", his empathy, and his sense of justice, are all pretty much essential to making the story work. Take those away and we never have a story at all - he never ends up where he was at the start of the whole thing, instead he'd have stayed in his apprenticeship and gone on to a completely different life. Throughout the story /his/ character traits drive major plot points, from rescuing Ayaka, to creating the contract with Evermillion, to accepting his punishment and having his power sealed, then through all the main arcs once he regains some agency and re-establishes his relationship with Ayaka. Hell, it's well established that anyone else with the same contract with Evermillion would basically have turned evil - Takamiya is the /only/ person who not only wouldn't turn evil, but would be able to form the mutually beneficial relationship with her that allowed him to take action at a number of points (particularly the fights against Medusa and Weekend).
I'm just not seeing how you can make a decent argument that /this/ particular character, with /these/ particular traits, isn't pretty fundamental to the story. Obviously you can replace him with someone different and tell a different story, but I really don't see how you can tell /this/ story, or something that's recognisable as this story, without this character or a character like him (or her, if you went with the original yuri version).
He can certainly be irritating at times, but unnecessary to the story, or a useless addition to the setting? I don't think so.
@WillLi I'm a little bit confused as to what you think this story is about, if you think Takamiya isn't contributing anything significant to it. By my reading this story doesn't /exist/ without him, and the shape of his character is critical in determining the shape of the whole story.
What's your reading? What do you think this story is actually about?
What's your reading? What do you think this story is actually about?
@comeonnow0 I point you towards characters like Krillin and Yamcha for 'convincing people to do stuff' and motivating them. You can also look at my statement about him being replaceable with many generic characters. You also keep trying to say his "Personality" as if it were something special. But his personality is not really all that special at all. You see him as some kinda character with special traits in his personality, but he's pretty freakin' ordinary for literature, especially in manga. Insert in shounen hero who isn't supposed to be 'gritty' and they will make all the same choices Takamiya did in the important places.
And as for 'purifying evermillion' I'd like to point out, she can't -do- anything while she's inside Takamiya unless she's let out in some way. So let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say he legitimately is changing her character, and that wouldn't happen if it was someone 'generic'. If the generic person still had her, guess what, it wouldn't too much matter that she wasn't purified, cause she can't do anything unless she's out. This arc wouldn't change either because she's being mind controlled anyway. So even if he did change her...lot of -use- that was. Maybe it'll make an impact down the road, but it hasn't yet. Also, I've noticed rather than pointing out bigger more significant things, you're getting smaller and smaller. I would like to point out we're -91- chapters in and this is all you're giving me.
As for your second post, it's more that his existence is critical to the shape of the start of the story. But that is very common. Takamiya has had little opportunity to make his own choices that impact the story. He's much like the infinity stones or another famous mcguffin. The story happens because of him, and his existence is changing how people would act if he's not there yes. But he is not doing much, he has almost no agency.
@himi-cat The problem with your first post is that everything you're looking at is the catalyst for -starting- the story. And yes that all happened, but if you compare him to other characters called 'useless' A huge number of them are the starting catalyst for their stories to start too, but then what do they do after that? And as for not going evil because of Evermillion's contract? I point you towards "the chosen one" trope. In other words, he doesn't go evil because the story needs him to not go evil, and that would be the case with any character put in his role. Also -numerous- protags from different genres have the trait of "Doesn't go evil from something that makes everyone else evil." I would also like to point out that isn't a trait of his 'personality' or his 'efforts'. He just has a random immunity to Evermillion. Cause let's be honest, if he was actually that resistant to corruption he wouldn't be mind controlled right now.
And you're right about the general shape of the story and how it was designed. But let's put it this way, DragonballZ wouldn't be DragonballZ if Goku didn't have his group of friends who were there with him, the whole story would change, because the story is about a 'group'. But they as characters don't really contribute to the story the majority of the time. There is a difference between a story needing a 'role' filled to work and between a story needing that specific character to work. And the difference between that is the agency the character has. The decision making power. And not only are Takamiya's decisions largely inconsequential, they even are openly vetoed in the plot some times.
@himi-cat @comeonnow0 One big example of this, his being proved innocent this arc. The question came up as to whether or not he was a traitor, and what did he do? Nothing, he didn't prove his innocence, in fact it was Kagari that proved his innocence, it was her plan, her observation, her decisions to use this information. Takamiya's 'personality' did not save him, Kagari saved him with her own actions, and then the other two witches were just there to verify that she wasn't lying.
And as for 'purifying evermillion' I'd like to point out, she can't -do- anything while she's inside Takamiya unless she's let out in some way. So let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say he legitimately is changing her character, and that wouldn't happen if it was someone 'generic'. If the generic person still had her, guess what, it wouldn't too much matter that she wasn't purified, cause she can't do anything unless she's out. This arc wouldn't change either because she's being mind controlled anyway. So even if he did change her...lot of -use- that was. Maybe it'll make an impact down the road, but it hasn't yet. Also, I've noticed rather than pointing out bigger more significant things, you're getting smaller and smaller. I would like to point out we're -91- chapters in and this is all you're giving me.
As for your second post, it's more that his existence is critical to the shape of the start of the story. But that is very common. Takamiya has had little opportunity to make his own choices that impact the story. He's much like the infinity stones or another famous mcguffin. The story happens because of him, and his existence is changing how people would act if he's not there yes. But he is not doing much, he has almost no agency.
@himi-cat The problem with your first post is that everything you're looking at is the catalyst for -starting- the story. And yes that all happened, but if you compare him to other characters called 'useless' A huge number of them are the starting catalyst for their stories to start too, but then what do they do after that? And as for not going evil because of Evermillion's contract? I point you towards "the chosen one" trope. In other words, he doesn't go evil because the story needs him to not go evil, and that would be the case with any character put in his role. Also -numerous- protags from different genres have the trait of "Doesn't go evil from something that makes everyone else evil." I would also like to point out that isn't a trait of his 'personality' or his 'efforts'. He just has a random immunity to Evermillion. Cause let's be honest, if he was actually that resistant to corruption he wouldn't be mind controlled right now.
And you're right about the general shape of the story and how it was designed. But let's put it this way, DragonballZ wouldn't be DragonballZ if Goku didn't have his group of friends who were there with him, the whole story would change, because the story is about a 'group'. But they as characters don't really contribute to the story the majority of the time. There is a difference between a story needing a 'role' filled to work and between a story needing that specific character to work. And the difference between that is the agency the character has. The decision making power. And not only are Takamiya's decisions largely inconsequential, they even are openly vetoed in the plot some times.
@himi-cat @comeonnow0 One big example of this, his being proved innocent this arc. The question came up as to whether or not he was a traitor, and what did he do? Nothing, he didn't prove his innocence, in fact it was Kagari that proved his innocence, it was her plan, her observation, her decisions to use this information. Takamiya's 'personality' did not save him, Kagari saved him with her own actions, and then the other two witches were just there to verify that she wasn't lying.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2020
- Messages
- 1,740
@WillLi The main issue is that you see in Takamiya similarities to other characters because of how common those personality traits are. How common it is to have a "pure" character. How common it is to have a "good" character. In manga. It is common to have that type of a person in manga. It is not common to have those kinds of people in real life. Your measurement of comparison is fundamentally wrong. One reason that authors choose to have their characters have those personalities is because it is actually unique in the real world. And look at how that actually works in the real world. People are motivated by these kinds of good persons. They are convinced to do things as a result.
And then you do what I already said you are doing. You're denying Takamiya of any actual things that he does. Being proved innocent in this arc isn't his actions? You're literally saying that whether he is guilty or not is not a result of his actions. The two witches proved he wasn't lying BECAUSE his actions proved that he wasn't doing anything wrong. Separate but related, you still didn't address how he does motivate people. Again, imagine if he were more "average" when Kagari first reunited with him. Imagine her idealized image breaking versus how he actually is, maintaining this image of goodness.
At the end of the day, the issue is that you think that because this kind of character model is common in other manga, that means it's not a unique character, even though it actually would be unique in the real world. It is like a motivational speaker. If we follow what you say, then motivational speakers are useless.
And then you do what I already said you are doing. You're denying Takamiya of any actual things that he does. Being proved innocent in this arc isn't his actions? You're literally saying that whether he is guilty or not is not a result of his actions. The two witches proved he wasn't lying BECAUSE his actions proved that he wasn't doing anything wrong. Separate but related, you still didn't address how he does motivate people. Again, imagine if he were more "average" when Kagari first reunited with him. Imagine her idealized image breaking versus how he actually is, maintaining this image of goodness.
At the end of the day, the issue is that you think that because this kind of character model is common in other manga, that means it's not a unique character, even though it actually would be unique in the real world. It is like a motivational speaker. If we follow what you say, then motivational speakers are useless.
@comeonnow0 His actual personality is rare yes, but that's irrelevant, people like Yamcha are rare but he's still useless. Why is that? Because if we're measuring his personality in usefulness, all that matters are the decisions he makes that effect the story, and those decisions are not that uncommon. They're not super common but it wouldn't be hard to find people that could make them.
As for your second paragraph...I'm starting to think you're actually a child. Him being proved innocent was not by his own actions. We're talking about this thing called 'agency' here. Your conscious decision making. Honoka made -zero- decisions consciously to prove himself innocent. Yes he was innocent because he actually was, but he did -nothing- to prove it. He showed no agency during that. He just let everyone do their thing and that resulted in him being proven innocent because he was innocent. If anyone else who was innocent was in that situation, it would be the same result, because it was by everyone else's efforts that he was proven innocent. By inverse, if Kagari didn't present all those documentations and speak up, Honoka, would've been found guilty, despite being innocent. Because Honoka didn't -do- anything during the incident, he jsut stood there.
You need to look up what the word 'agency' means, because you have no idea. Also Kagari liking Honoka is not something Honoka did. Because guess what, even if they aren't perfect, it's Kagari's decision if she's obsessed with them. Honoka didn't make that decision for her, and it could still happen if the person wasn't as 'perfect' as Honoka. What you are doing is taking actions and decisions other characters made, and attributing them to Honoka because "Honoka is awesome" or something. But that is more proof than anything that Honoka is actually useless, the fact that you're literally taking other's actions and saying they're Honoka's. The credit for the action goes to who had the agency, who made the decision.
And whether or not he's unique has nothing to do with my evaluation. The reason I talk about him being so easily replacable, is because -Honoka- isn't needed for this story to work. What's needed for the story to progress is "A nice guy that is Evermillion's vessel" Just like Krillin and Yamcha, what is needed is a -role- not the specific character. In contrast you have someone like say Cell, you can't just replace him with high powered bad guy and get the same result. Because the way cell went about doing things went with his developing personality. You specifically needed that arrogance and pride, and Saiyan dickishness that developed when he became perfect Cell in order to get the cell games result.
And as for your motivational speaker example. The motivational speaker is infact replaceable. Because no matter how good they are, they can't make the decision for you. You need -something- to motivate you, it doesn't have to be a specific motivational speaker. Now where this differs from the motivational speaker is, that you're comparing two very different types of 'story'. With teh motivational speaker you're talking about the story of someone being motivated. So of course the motivation is pivitol. However the story here, is actually the narrative of the interactions going on around Evermillion's current host. It's not actually the story of Kagari and Honoka. Yes the Author wants to show us the story of Kagari and Honoka, but the mechanics in their world are not moving because of Kagari and Honoka, in the world of the manga, things are moving because of Evermillion. The two MC's are just pieces moving in Evermillion's life. That's what's brought everything in their direction, Evermillion not Kagari and Honoka. And Honoka himself has done next to nothing to effect that, and the things he has 'done' have been with zero agency.
What you're doing would be like saying that a police officer who is sitting in his car, eating donuts, stopped a lady from getting mugged on the street because he was there. So that police officer was 'useful' to this incident. No he wasn't, firstly he can be replaced with any police officer being there. And the officer didn't actually stop the crime. The crime didn't happen, but that was because the criminal go scared, the officer didn't actually take any conscious action to prevent a crime, it was just coincidence.
As for your second paragraph...I'm starting to think you're actually a child. Him being proved innocent was not by his own actions. We're talking about this thing called 'agency' here. Your conscious decision making. Honoka made -zero- decisions consciously to prove himself innocent. Yes he was innocent because he actually was, but he did -nothing- to prove it. He showed no agency during that. He just let everyone do their thing and that resulted in him being proven innocent because he was innocent. If anyone else who was innocent was in that situation, it would be the same result, because it was by everyone else's efforts that he was proven innocent. By inverse, if Kagari didn't present all those documentations and speak up, Honoka, would've been found guilty, despite being innocent. Because Honoka didn't -do- anything during the incident, he jsut stood there.
You need to look up what the word 'agency' means, because you have no idea. Also Kagari liking Honoka is not something Honoka did. Because guess what, even if they aren't perfect, it's Kagari's decision if she's obsessed with them. Honoka didn't make that decision for her, and it could still happen if the person wasn't as 'perfect' as Honoka. What you are doing is taking actions and decisions other characters made, and attributing them to Honoka because "Honoka is awesome" or something. But that is more proof than anything that Honoka is actually useless, the fact that you're literally taking other's actions and saying they're Honoka's. The credit for the action goes to who had the agency, who made the decision.
And whether or not he's unique has nothing to do with my evaluation. The reason I talk about him being so easily replacable, is because -Honoka- isn't needed for this story to work. What's needed for the story to progress is "A nice guy that is Evermillion's vessel" Just like Krillin and Yamcha, what is needed is a -role- not the specific character. In contrast you have someone like say Cell, you can't just replace him with high powered bad guy and get the same result. Because the way cell went about doing things went with his developing personality. You specifically needed that arrogance and pride, and Saiyan dickishness that developed when he became perfect Cell in order to get the cell games result.
And as for your motivational speaker example. The motivational speaker is infact replaceable. Because no matter how good they are, they can't make the decision for you. You need -something- to motivate you, it doesn't have to be a specific motivational speaker. Now where this differs from the motivational speaker is, that you're comparing two very different types of 'story'. With teh motivational speaker you're talking about the story of someone being motivated. So of course the motivation is pivitol. However the story here, is actually the narrative of the interactions going on around Evermillion's current host. It's not actually the story of Kagari and Honoka. Yes the Author wants to show us the story of Kagari and Honoka, but the mechanics in their world are not moving because of Kagari and Honoka, in the world of the manga, things are moving because of Evermillion. The two MC's are just pieces moving in Evermillion's life. That's what's brought everything in their direction, Evermillion not Kagari and Honoka. And Honoka himself has done next to nothing to effect that, and the things he has 'done' have been with zero agency.
What you're doing would be like saying that a police officer who is sitting in his car, eating donuts, stopped a lady from getting mugged on the street because he was there. So that police officer was 'useful' to this incident. No he wasn't, firstly he can be replaced with any police officer being there. And the officer didn't actually stop the crime. The crime didn't happen, but that was because the criminal go scared, the officer didn't actually take any conscious action to prevent a crime, it was just coincidence.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2020
- Messages
- 1,740
@WillLi I find it ironic that you try to lecture me on the meaning of agency when you're trying to deny all of the actual contributions that Takamiya makes.
Does a hammer have agency? Does a refrigerator have agency? Are they useless? Are they replaceable by anything other than a copy of the exact same item? A refrigerator can basically only ever be replaced by another refrigerator. If you have to use the same exact item to replace something and fulfill the same purposes, then that means it is not replaceable.
I could dispute your points on Takamiya lacking agency. I could go into how Takamiya actually does confront Alcina when he is brought to trial. I could talk about how he did actually speak to the two investigator witches and actually acted. ALL of that is irrelevant. The basic question is whether he is useless. That is it. And agency has very little to do with that.
Your response to the motivational speaker example shows that you are wrong. The fact of the matter is that real life people DO actually think that motivational speakers DO something. Real life people do actually think that motivational speakers are not replaceable. That is how real life people actually describe things.
And your police officer example is broken from the beginning. We can literally read the minds of people like Kagari. We literally see that Takamiya is the source of her motivation. If we could read the mind of the criminal and actually know whether the police officer was a deterrent, then we could have an answer as to the usefulness of uselessness of the officer. You say the officer could be replaced by anyone who wearing the uniform? Okay, Takamiya could be replaced by anyone who looks, acts, thinks, and behaves the exact same way as Takamiya. You are correct if you say that. Takamiya could be replaced by a clone of Takamiya. That doesn't make him replaceable. That doesn't make him useless.
One thing you've repeated a lot is that Takamiya could be replaced by any number of shounen of seinen characters that have his exact same personality, so therefore, he is replaceable and useless. Do you not see how messed up your definition is? Yeah, he could be replaced by someone who behaves the exact same way. No duh. Everyone could. That means that literally nothing is irreplaceable. That means that everything in the world is replaceable. That is the logic of your argument.
The only way to justify your point is to ignore vast swathes of this series in favor of pushing your point.
Does a hammer have agency? Does a refrigerator have agency? Are they useless? Are they replaceable by anything other than a copy of the exact same item? A refrigerator can basically only ever be replaced by another refrigerator. If you have to use the same exact item to replace something and fulfill the same purposes, then that means it is not replaceable.
I could dispute your points on Takamiya lacking agency. I could go into how Takamiya actually does confront Alcina when he is brought to trial. I could talk about how he did actually speak to the two investigator witches and actually acted. ALL of that is irrelevant. The basic question is whether he is useless. That is it. And agency has very little to do with that.
Your response to the motivational speaker example shows that you are wrong. The fact of the matter is that real life people DO actually think that motivational speakers DO something. Real life people do actually think that motivational speakers are not replaceable. That is how real life people actually describe things.
And your police officer example is broken from the beginning. We can literally read the minds of people like Kagari. We literally see that Takamiya is the source of her motivation. If we could read the mind of the criminal and actually know whether the police officer was a deterrent, then we could have an answer as to the usefulness of uselessness of the officer. You say the officer could be replaced by anyone who wearing the uniform? Okay, Takamiya could be replaced by anyone who looks, acts, thinks, and behaves the exact same way as Takamiya. You are correct if you say that. Takamiya could be replaced by a clone of Takamiya. That doesn't make him replaceable. That doesn't make him useless.
One thing you've repeated a lot is that Takamiya could be replaced by any number of shounen of seinen characters that have his exact same personality, so therefore, he is replaceable and useless. Do you not see how messed up your definition is? Yeah, he could be replaced by someone who behaves the exact same way. No duh. Everyone could. That means that literally nothing is irreplaceable. That means that everything in the world is replaceable. That is the logic of your argument.
The only way to justify your point is to ignore vast swathes of this series in favor of pushing your point.
Similar threads
