Xiǎo Gūniāng - Vol. 6 Ch. 72

[MangaDex]

 

[okaeri_arisu]

forcefemming has never been this heartwarming, hehe

 

[King_julien]

Thank you for the translation!

 

[SrNevik]

Xiaoyang is a favorite of mine. He goes through quite a bit but finds somewhere to be himself and crossdress freely. Xiaoyang's "Call me Great Uncle!" line is funny but also telling since Xiaoyang is clearly expressing himself here; also anything to be like his sister. That friend must go through a daze having to deal with these two siblings though. This town really has become a refuge and place for free expression and that's part of what makes this series tick. Needless to say, their parents such ass.

 

[outinthegardener]

"If you punish someone for believing his dream, don't expect him to thank or forgive you
The best ever deathmetal band out of Denton, will in time outrank and outlive you
Hail Satan! Hail Satan!"

 

[vvboondoggirl]

jfc this series only continues to PILE ON trans woman experience after trans feminine experience like none else. it's patently ridiculous when it's depicting the violence, the euphoria, the pain and the struggle so blatantly. I dont give a fuck if the author makes the character use masculine terms for herself, she shouldnt be by the end if the author wants to actually, truthfully represent the kind of character she has stumbled into writing. ATP he/him for xiaoyang is misgendering. I'm so exhausted with the lack of courage and moral honesty around any of this, from the narrative, the audience, the author, everyone... so done.

 

[vvboondoggirl]

if you showed xiaoyang a few 5 year transition timelines that little gremlin fuck would teleport to the nearest estrogen vial and it would be entirely within character. she would lose her shit and point and look and go "that's what i need to do, thats who I want to be". Wouldnt go any other way.

 

[AndreaMS]

jfc this series only continues to PILE ON trans woman experience after trans feminine experience like none else. it's patently ridiculous when it's depicting the violence, the euphoria, the pain and the struggle so blatantly. I dont give a fuck if the author makes the character use masculine terms for herself, she shouldnt be by the end if the author wants to actually, truthfully represent the kind of character she has stumbled into writing. ATP he/him for xiaoyang is misgendering. I'm so exhausted with the lack of courage and moral honesty around any of this, from the narrative, the audience, the author, everyone... so done.

as a trans woman myself im not even sure if he is supposed to be transgender or gender nonconforming which is also a thing, at the moment he seems comfortable to refer to himself as a man and only cares about his gender expression, if he ends up being transgender we will have to see but I do not think author is doing a bad job nor a disservice to anyone with this story

 

[vvboondoggirl]

as a trans woman myself im not even sure if he is supposed to be transgender or gender nonconforming which is also a thing, at the moment he seems comfortable to refer to himself as a man and only cares about his gender expression, if he ends up being transgender we will have to see but I do not think author is doing a bad job nor a disservice to anyone with this story

the problem with giving the "gender nonconfirming benefit of the doubt" is that unfortunately transmisogyny is just subconsciously present everywhere and the reality is there is an extreme lack of explicit trans women characters in the yuri/baiheverse but an overabundance of these "nonconformers" that lean on transmisogynistic tropes and transfeminine fetishization, or else, like this text, leans on a lot of trans feminine signifiers. When such a lack exists, then there is some criticism warranted when the subculture continues to approximate some kind of transness but is refusing to name it, and more often than not, choosing to deny the existence of transness. It has been far too long to really give anyone in the sphere benefit of the doubt.

 

[lilsssss]

god those parents are the WORST

 

[vivigemm]

jfc this series only continues to PILE ON trans woman experience after trans feminine experience like none else. it's patently ridiculous when it's depicting the violence, the euphoria, the pain and the struggle so blatantly. I dont give a fuck if the author makes the character use masculine terms for herself, she shouldnt be by the end if the author wants to actually, truthfully represent the kind of character she has stumbled into writing. ATP he/him for xiaoyang is misgendering. I'm so exhausted with the lack of courage and moral honesty around any of this, from the narrative, the audience, the author, everyone... so done.

To be completely fair, I dressed like a girl and used he/him for like 3 years before I transitioned. She’s definitely a trans women, but ya gotta give people space to figure it out.

 

[vivigemm]

the problem with giving the "gender nonconfirming benefit of the doubt" is that unfortunately transmisogyny is just subconsciously present everywhere and the reality is there is an extreme lack of explicit trans women characters in the yuri/baiheverse but an overabundance of these "nonconformers" that lean on transmisogynistic tropes and transfeminine fetishization, or else, like this text, leans on a lot of trans feminine signifiers. When such a lack exists, then there is some criticism warranted when the subculture continues to approximate some kind of transness but is refusing to name it, and more often than not, choosing to deny the existence of transness. It has been far too long to really give anyone in the sphere benefit of the doubt.

it would make sense if she’s still figuring things out, but there has gotta be a point where she actually figures it out. Otherwise it’s just shitty

 

[MacinteuchPlus]

Transphobe extinction button

 

[moofmurphy]

jfc this series only continues to PILE ON trans woman experience after trans feminine experience like none else. it's patently ridiculous when it's depicting the violence, the euphoria, the pain and the struggle so blatantly. I dont give a fuck if the author makes the character use masculine terms for herself, she shouldnt be by the end if the author wants to actually, truthfully represent the kind of character she has stumbled into writing. ATP he/him for xiaoyang is misgendering. I'm so exhausted with the lack of courage and moral honesty around any of this, from the narrative, the audience, the author, everyone... so done.

For REALLLL

 

[OisE]

To be completely fair, I dressed like a girl and used he/him for like 3 years before I transitioned. She’s definitely a trans women, but ya gotta give people space to figure it out.

I agree, I don't get what boondoggirl says.

"gender nonconfirming benefit of the doubt"

Also, it's kinda rude to judge the author so quickly. Like, everyone in My dear lass have some problem they need to fix. And, how are you so sure that xiaoyang uses he/him because they want to, and not because of these trashy parents?
Finally, this chapter shows like, not the beginning but definitely the start of xiaoyang's journey to discover oneself.

For me, I don't understand it that way (gender nonconfirming benefit of the doubt).

 

[PixelCrow12]

That's straight up child abuse. Our poor baby must've been terrified. I could never understand how a parent could do something like that to their child

 

[vvboondoggirl]

I agree, I don't get what boondoggirl says.


Also, it's kinda rude to judge the author so quickly. Like, everyone in My dear lass have some problem they need to fix. And, how are you so sure that xiaoyang uses he/him because they want to, and not because of these trashy parents?
Finally, this chapter shows like, not the beginning but definitely the start of xiaoyang's journey to discover oneself.

For me, I don't understand it that way (gender nonconfirming benefit of the doubt).

its not judging the author harshly to say, no im not gonna give you the benefit of the doubt to automatically assume you are aiming for nonbinary / genderfluid identity or expression distinct from transfemininity or that they understand the nuance between those. I refuse to pretend that these authors and these people that make these decisions are super progressive in their understandings of transness to the point of "being able" skip over representing trans women. its much more convenient to simplify transness with the thought-terminating epithet of "gender nonconforming". There is a point and purpose in definition. A definition is more threatening to the status quo, be that nb, trans, genderfluid, w/e. Currently leaving it as it is now, with the narrative in arrest, for this period of time, is where I take issue Sure, tis there room for the narrative to come full circle? Sure, but ppls comments lead me to believe that the majority of the untranslated chapters continue to hold Xiaoyang in gender nonconforming stasis.

 

[Andigo]

the problem with giving the "gender nonconfirming benefit of the doubt" is that unfortunately transmisogyny is just subconsciously present everywhere and the reality is there is an extreme lack of explicit trans women characters in the yuri/baiheverse but an overabundance of these "nonconformers" that lean on transmisogynistic tropes and transfeminine fetishization, or else, like this text, leans on a lot of trans feminine signifiers. When such a lack exists, then there is some criticism warranted when the subculture continues to approximate some kind of transness but is refusing to name it, and more often than not, choosing to deny the existence of transness. It has been far too long to really give anyone in the sphere benefit of the doubt.

Responding to a lot of your conversation ...

The cultural nuances of gender complicate the situation, because none of the genders map perfectly between anglosphere and east Asia, or China specifically. And celebrating a relatively progressive plot doesn't diminish the value of your broader critique. I agree that there needs to be more justice and respect for folks expression and gender performance. And I agree that restrictions affect the labels people use and the horizons of possibility they can perceive - loosely like the theory that cognition is limited by language.

Spoiler: Complicated disagreement - to call Xiaoyang 'he' or 'they' is plenty accurate.

(...Pardon me on the wall of text, I'm in a mood. Not related to this, you're totally fine)

That said I don't take gender labels to be universal, and I don't think words need to proscribe some ideal. Few people perfectly meet the expectations of their label. So while moral and cultural relativism doesn't apply, I think we can personally take gender within and across cultures as self determination to respect. Despite knowing the labels are imperfect or don't match up, usually a contemporary person should be referred to how they're used to asking others (not always what a norm would classify them). Because it's rarely a serious enough role-language conflict to forcibly reclassify a person into a label with its own deep complexity. Sadly that can be misinterpreted as giving in to transphobia and other biases, but reclassing gender across translation needs solid role acceptance or it's merely fighting over our wishes about an unclear situation.

So I disagree about gendering Xiaoyang differently than what the story uses. "Call me uncle!" shouted in a moment of joy isn't showing discomfort with the 'male' label. Psychologically, yes, Xiaoyang isn't a man and hates some masc signifiers. Since "they" is acceptable for anyone, I may use it. But 'he' is accurate enough to Chinese gender norms within the story, despite how it gives a false impression of masculinity to English readers because the anglosphere has adopted the labels of trans and non-binary more widely. 'He' could even be accurate to English translation in most of the prior century.


The transphobia or reflexive normatively strict view of genders are somewhat different grounds for people claiming trans elements aren't prominent in a work. So assuming good faith is where I'm starting. Treating "he" as totally firm is wrong but the nuance of the situation doesn't necessarily make it easy to discuss.

This is in tension with the fact that Xiaoyang isn't precisely a man, so it can be misread as a statement on gender applying to the west... But in practice it's progressive within modern Chinese, even if the language doesn't live up to what we hope becomes more normalized. Being a "male" crossdresser in a cultural sense, like folks who seem like trans men masking as "female", puts Xiaoyang into a comfortable niche, again regardless of our hopes.

China does have public trans people, politely quiet. The country isn't blind to LGBTQI factors and growing acceptance in society despite the ruling Xi faction's disdain. Patient visibility and unavoidable reality win. So within the calculus of what Xiaoyang might feel underneath, please recognize that with famous cultural precedent Xiaoyang knows they can ask to be treated as and transition to a woman and hasn't at this time. So Xiaoyang is reflective of the social framework they can fit in, and they are a good influence by staying alive and visible, because their clearly gender dysphoria and euphoria are fact. I take the story as a win for gender, even if Xiaoyang isn't going a further step which socially and culturally and most influentially legally requires bottom surgery. Xiaoyang's choice of label could be based on literally that (transmedicalism is kinda a cultural tolerance because it's linguistically simple), language could be stuck on that, but how Xiaoyang lives in a nonconforming way pushes boundaries. The label being used for trans comedy due to its conflict with everyday life is really nice, it's usually unrealistic and slightly offensive but here it's totally realistic and chill, so comedy silver lining.

Going out on a limb, the kid is fine how they express theirself. As the character is presented as contemporary to the reader, and is still 'alive' in the work, I see no fundamental issue with how they are presented beyond limits of language and norms. That said, non-contemporary, 'dead' characters and people, and contexts where gender identity (or another sensitive topic) is complicated with multiple similar feels to distinguish, really don't need strict translation of words if the words in English can't convey the weight of what or how communication is ongoing.

In this case "he" is accurate, "they" is a 500+ year old cop-out (my preference in this kinda sitch), "she" is totally okay in chat I think (it's celebratory about fem content!), even if I think "she" adds assumptions that may not be accurate.

I made lots of errors I had to edit so hopefully I caught all the logic I wrote backwards.

 

[SrNevik]

Responding to a lot of your conversation ...

The cultural nuances of gender complicate the situation, because none of the genders map perfectly between anglosphere and east Asia, or China specifically. And celebrating a relatively progressive plot doesn't diminish the value of your broader critique. I agree that there needs to be more justice and respect for folks expression and gender performance. And I agree that restrictions affect the labels people use and the horizons of possibility they can perceive - loosely like the theory that cognition is limited by language.

Spoiler: Complicated disagreement - to call Xiaoyang 'he' or 'they' is plenty accurate.

(...Pardon me on the wall of text, I'm in a mood. Not related to this, you're totally fine)

That said I don't take gender labels to be universal, and I don't think words need to proscribe some ideal. Few people perfectly meet the expectations of their label. So while moral and cultural relativism doesn't apply, I think we can personally take gender within and across cultures as self determination to respect. Despite knowing the labels are imperfect or don't match up, usually a contemporary person should be referred to how they're used to asking others (not always what a norm would classify them). Because it's rarely a serious enough role-language conflict to forcibly reclassify a person into a label with its own deep complexity. Sadly that can be misinterpreted as giving in to transphobia and other biases, but reclassing gender across translation needs solid role acceptance or it's merely fighting over our wishes about an unclear situation.

So I disagree about gendering Xiaoyang differently than what the story uses. "Call me uncle!" shouted in a moment of joy isn't showing discomfort with the 'male' label. Psychologically, yes, Xiaoyang isn't a man and hates some masc signifiers. Since "they" is acceptable for anyone, I may use it. But 'he' is accurate enough to Chinese gender norms within the story, despite how it gives a false impression of masculinity to English readers because the anglosphere has adopted the labels of trans and non-binary more widely. 'He' could even be accurate to English translation in most of the prior century.


The transphobia or reflexive normatively strict view of genders are somewhat different grounds for people claiming trans elements aren't prominent in a work. So assuming good faith is where I'm starting. Treating "he" as totally firm is wrong but the nuance of the situation doesn't necessarily make it easy to discuss.

This is in tension with the fact that Xiaoyang isn't precisely a man, so it can be misread as a statement on gender applying to the west... But in practice it's progressive within modern Chinese, even if the language doesn't live up to what we hope becomes more normalized. Being a "male" crossdresser in a cultural sense, like folks who seem like trans men masking as "female", puts Xiaoyang into a comfortable niche, again regardless of our hopes.

China does have public trans people, politely quiet. The country isn't blind to LGBTQI factors and growing acceptance in society despite the ruling Xi faction's disdain. Patient visibility and unavoidable reality win. So within the calculus of what Xiaoyang might feel underneath, please recognize that with famous cultural precedent Xiaoyang knows they can ask to be treated as and transition to a woman and hasn't at this time. So Xiaoyang is reflective of the social framework they can fit in, and they are a good influence by staying alive and visible, because their clearly gender dysphoria and euphoria are fact. I take the story as a win for gender, even if Xiaoyang isn't going a further step which socially and culturally and most influentially legally requires bottom surgery. Xiaoyang's choice of label could be based on literally that (transmedicalism is kinda a cultural tolerance because it's linguistically simple), language could be stuck on that, but how Xiaoyang lives in a nonconforming way pushes boundaries. The label being used for trans comedy due to its conflict with everyday life is really nice, it's usually unrealistic and slightly offensive but here it's totally realistic and chill, so comedy silver lining.

Going out on a limb, the kid is fine how they express theirself. As the character is presented as contemporary to the reader, and is still 'alive' in the work, I see no fundamental issue with how they are presented beyond limits of language and norms. That said, non-contemporary, 'dead' characters and people, and contexts where gender identity (or another sensitive topic) is complicated with multiple similar feels to distinguish, really don't need strict translation of words if the words in English can't convey the weight of what or how communication is ongoing.

In this case "he" is accurate, "they" is a 500+ year old cop-out (my preference in this kinda sitch), "she" is totally okay in chat I think (it's celebratory about fem content!), even if I think "she" adds assumptions that may not be accurate.

I made lots of errors I had to edit so hopefully I caught all the logic I wrote backwards.

You put in some work on this one, so I have to provide an upvote.

 

[Tlo]

its not judging the author harshly to say, no im not gonna give you the benefit of the doubt to automatically assume you are aiming for nonbinary / genderfluid identity or expression distinct from transfemininity or that they understand the nuance between those. I refuse to pretend that these authors and these people that make these decisions are super progressive in their understandings of transness to the point of "being able" skip over representing trans women. its much more convenient to simplify transness with the thought-terminating epithet of "gender nonconforming". There is a point and purpose in definition. A definition is more threatening to the status quo, be that nb, trans, genderfluid, w/e. Currently leaving it as it is now, with the narrative in arrest, for this period of time, is where I take issue Sure, tis there room for the narrative to come full circle? Sure, but ppls comments lead me to believe that the majority of the untranslated chapters continue to hold Xiaoyang in gender nonconforming stasis.

Just wanted to say that trans people can be gender nonconforming too, btw.