Chounin A wa Akuyaku Reijou wo Doushitemo Sukuitai - Vol. 8 Ch. 38.1 - Commencing Assault

[AFresherPerspective]

They made their choices, no need to feel anything for them

 

[CrimsonWarden]

in a walled city? eeeeeh

So long as you bomb near the center and leave an exit point. Yes they can.

And 500-1000 meters from said "clear exit" is where you place trenches and human traps to capture or kill the fleeing soldiers.
And where you herd civilians and non-combatants as refugees or a labor force that would be at your mercy.

 

[unnamederror]

Spoiler: Megaspoilers

Allen bloodily rescues Anna, but she's comatose cuz of the sword. Allen gets the help of the lolicon fairy to awaken her. Allen goes to the King to present the Est Prince's head and request the right to marry Anna, and the King goes back on his word, causing a fight to break out where Allen and Anna's Father declare independence from the Kingdom. The fake otome protagonist bitch gets empowered with brainwashing powers as a Witch (calling herself Saint). Allen ends up getting hurt, and Anna becomes the real saint to heal him. Allen and Anna storm the Kingdom's capitol, and cleanse it of the bitch's branwashing, defeating and selling her off to slavery, while a younger, relatively good Prince gets installed as King. It ends with Allen marrying Anna creating a branch house of her father's new Kingdom Royal Family.

come one dude, no need to spoil some years ahead, this war alone will last for atleast till next year

 

[finalm]

Then by that logic pretty much all aggressive actions in war will be war crime and the word kinda lose its meaning like 'incel' or 'nazi' these days.

What the hell are you talking about? There's more to the definition of a war crime than what was stated, but it's still a closed list. Did your googling suggest otherwise?

That's not the same here though, since the crimes there include things done outside of battlefields (y'know, concentration camp, Holocaust and all that)

What does it matter? The point is the same, it makes no difference what you "want", as long as you act like a war criminal.

But that's literally not what's been shown in the story, where did anyone even mention this 'plan' you speak of?

In fact the story has shown the opposite and that he's been doing those things you demand to make it not war crime:
https://mangadex.org/chapter/9c613be7-2370-48dd-a99a-07a7d8b74b5f/9
Here he confirmed it's a military convoy before attacking.

https://mangadex.org/chapter/807180bb-e3b5-4f6a-ac3c-331ae0950b51/7
Here he bombed the tower to break the defense, letting his allies rush in to occupy the place.

There's been no evidence of him intentionally targeting any civilian target, at all.

So by the story's evidence so far, he IS doing exactly what you wanted him to do.

We are not talking about what was done so far. We are talking about what they have planned for Cardacia, which you've been arguing all along is fine, simply because they've given warning. Changed your mind?

 

[WhimsiCat]

We are not talking about what was done so far. We are talking about what they have planned for Cardacia, which you've been arguing all along is fine, simply because they've given warning. Changed your mind?

I brought up the previous actions to show that he hasn't ever 'intentionally' target civilians, which by your own stated definition would not make him a war criminal.
And unless he somehow break character, that streak would likely continue with how he attack Cardacia too.

The only mention about plan for Cardacia is using fire bomb to make them surrender.
Not one bit mentions targeting civilians.
Their final goal is RE-occupying the fortress, so clearly burning the whole place to the ground would be stupid idea.

So far you're the one pushing this civilian slaughter war crime angle, and never provide a single bit of evidence it's even remotely the actual plan.

So no, you haven't change my mind, not one bit.

What does it matter? The point is the same, it makes no difference what you "want", as long as you act like a war criminal.

Which I just provided evidences he hasn't been acting like one? Why keep insisting on that?

 

[ihoj]

At least people still have a chance to outrun a fire.
I was considering some mustard or chlorine gas.
Though we could always do both.

How about napalm ? 😈 people's first instinct is to splash water on them when seeing someone on fire. Pretty funny to see the despair on their face when they find that it doesnt work thanks to napalm's hydrophobic properties.

 

[finalm]

I brought up the previous actions to show that he hasn't ever 'intentionally' target civilians, which by your own stated definition would not make him a war criminal.
And unless he somehow break character, that streak would likely continue with how he attack Cardacia too.

The only mention about plan for Cardacia is using fire bomb to make them surrender.
Not one bit mentions targeting civilians.
Their final goal is RE-occupying the fortress, so clearly burning the whole place to the ground would be stupid idea.

So far you're the one pushing this civilian slaughter war crime angle, and never provide a single bit of evidence it's even remotely the actual plan.

Sigh... Chapter 38.1, page 9-13. The matter was settled with the plan to bomb the city, even though everyone's aware that it will result in civillian deaths. Allen himself wonders just how many would actually leave before the attack. The only supposed silver linging is that "the fire will scare them enough to surrender", which is not only unlikely, but does not change the core issue of killing indiscriminately, which you can't seem to wrap your head around. What exactly is so difficult to understand here? Not to mention that you've acknowledged that this was the plan before, only now you seem to be somehow confused.

Which I just provided evidences he hasn't been acting like one? Why keep insisting on that?

Dude, which part of "what has been going on up until now is not the topic at hand, it's what they intend to do next" do you not understand? You could be Dalai Lama your whole life up till now, but if you execute the invasion in the way that was discussed here, it wouldn't matter in the slightest, you'd be guilty - is the fact that your past actions have no bearing on whatever crimes you commit in the present or future really such a foreign concept? I really don't get what goes on in your head here. For the last time: I haven't even mentioned anything about Allen's actions in the campaign so far, I'm focused on the talks in the current chapter from the beggining.

 

[kurokamibe]

Truth be told, it's only a war crime because someone says it is, now try and enforce it.
We've seen how both sides in the israel/palestine and ukraine russia wars have been committing massive war crimes at scale on each other, and jack is done about it, so yeah, it's only a war crime if someone will actually enforce it, you can claim anything is a crime but it means nothing if you can't prevent it from happening.

Yeah, they only care about the war crimes of the enemies and not their own
Some side try to limit it because they don't have the world propaganda machine to sweep it under the rug, but even then, they still commit them

 

[visigoth]

Spoiler: About FMC

Anti NTR accesory protects her from the sword. She just falls in a comma, but she is safe.

special sauce enjoyers hate this one simple trick

 

[Yeetmeister1111]

Nope. The typical war tactic for walled cities/fortresses was to close the gates, strangely enough.

Dumbass I was saying if they leave the castle then they'll run into the enemy army and be killed by them

 

[finalm]

Dumbass I was saying if they leave the castle then they'll run into the enemy army and be killed by them

Not my fault you're so trivially mocked. Maybe that wouldn't be the case if you could be bothered to properly put thought to writing, rather than trying to be quippy. Otherwise, expect only quip back.

Also, avoiding a medieval army is feasible if you know where they're coming from, it's not a tsunami. The issue is being able to leave in the first place.

 

[bojjivinsmoke]

This shit draggin on too long.. go and save Anna already!

 

[WhimsiCat]

Sigh... Chapter 38.1, page 9-13. The matter was settled with the plan to bomb the city, even though everyone's aware that it will result in civillian deaths. Allen himself wonders just how many would actually leave before the attack. The only supposed silver linging is that "the fire will scare them enough to surrender", which is not only unlikely, but does not change the core issue of killing indiscriminately, which you can't seem to wrap your head around. What exactly is so difficult to understand here? Not to mention that you've acknowledged that this was the plan before, only now you seem to be somehow confused.

"Give civilians time to escape"
Yeah, such 'indiscriminate killing'

You're the one who seem confused.
This is literally what you said:
"I've been telling you from the start that the issue is not distinguishing military from civillian targets, as long as that stays true, it'll always be a war crime under contemporary law."

Allen, the one who's going to be dropping the bomb, has been shown consistently to target military targets and considering the only demand they make of him is using fire bombs, there's nothing stopping him from only targeting military structures again.

Could there have been non-combatants among the army he bombed? Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact his targets has been military.

Dude, which part of "what has been going on up until now is not the topic at hand, it's what they intend to do next" do you not understand?

And yet you use 'historically' as your basis on many of your arguments. Like your presumptions that civilians can't escape a sieged city (even though the story mentioned civilians escaped) that soldiers will rape/pillage the city (even though it was their city just half a century ago)

if you execute the invasion in the way that was discussed here, it wouldn't matter in the slightest, you'd be guilty - is the fact that your past actions have no bearing on whatever crimes you commit in the present or future really such a foreign concept?

And has it shown him actually doing the crime you're accusing him of? Or is it all in your head that he 'will' commit the crime despite his past behavior suggest he will 'intentionally' avoid civilian targets?
Just saying but I don't recall the 'pre-crime' cops in Minority Report being the good guys.

 

[ultrabread]

they about to have an america moment

 

[Nekotofu]

Remember kids, it's never a war crime the first time you do it~

It's never a war crime if you do it before Geneva convention exist.

 

[finalm]

"Give civilians time to escape"
Yeah, such 'indiscriminate killing'

Yes, because there will be civillians there, regardless. I'm really tired of repeating this only for you to gloss over. Are yoyu saying there won't be any there? If not then you're just arguing in bad faith. If so, then why is Allen worried?

You're the one who seem confused.
This is literally what you said:
"I've been telling you from the start that the issue is not distinguishing military from civillian targets, as long as that stays true, it'll always be a war crime under contemporary law."

Allen, the one who's going to be dropping the bomb, has been shown consistently to target military targets and considering the only demand they make of him is using fire bombs, there's nothing stopping him from only targeting military structures again.

What the literal fuck...? They are going to be bombing a city. A medieval one, mostly wood-based. There is no amount of precision that will prevent most of said city from burning down. There's no precision to firebombing in the first place. This is why Allen is troubled. He knows it'll be a massacre of non-combatants no matter how you cut it. Do you really not understand this, or are you still just trying to justify said massacre?

Could there have been non-combatants among the army he bombed? Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact his targets has been military.

No jurisdiction in the modern world would consider a city to be a "military target", when bombing is concerned. That's why the Russians' methods of warfare in Ukraine are criminal (though that's some of the least of their atrocities anyway, but I digress).

And yet you use 'historically' as your basis on many of your arguments. Like your presumptions that civilians can't escape a sieged city (even though the story mentioned civilians escaped) that soldiers will rape/pillage the city (even though it was their city just half a century ago)

What else am I supposed to reference for an isekai manga? Other isekai? Or are you saying we should suspend all disbelief and assume against all reason, that every non-combatant somehow just disappears from there - just so you can avoid thinking about the nasty implications? If that's what you want, pick up a fairy tale. You seem adamant to make one out of this anyway.

And has it shown him actually doing the crime you're accusing him of? Or is it all in your head that he 'will' commit the crime despite his past behavior suggest he will 'intentionally' avoid civilian targets?
Just saying but I don't recall the 'pre-crime' cops in Minority Report being the good guys.

Clearly you still don't get what I'm saying, even though I've been smacking you with it in the face. This is the last time I'll say it, if it still doesn't land then I'm giving up on getting through to you, since it'll be as hopeless as if you were MAGA. I'm not accusing him of anything, I never mentioned anything of the sort (and told you that very plainly, bounced right off, obviously). I haven't even said a thing about what he was up to until to this chapter. I'm saying, that if he participates in this bombing plan as it was agreed upon, then by modern standards, he'll be a war criminal and he knows it. That's all. It'a a statement about events that haven't happened yet. Do you understand now?

 

[WhimsiCat]

I'm not accusing him of anything, I never mentioned anything of the sort (and told you that very plainly, bounced right off, obviously). I haven't even said a thing about what he was up to until to this chapter. I'm saying, that if he participates in this bombing plan as it was agreed upon, then by modern standards, he'll be a war criminal and he knows it. That's all. It'a a statement about events that haven't happened yet. Do you understand now?

I had a lot wrote but up y'know what, fuck it. We can just agree to disagree.

I judge stories by what actually happen in it, I will not just presume certain things will happen.
Especially in a fantasy setting where literal god and magic exist.
Whether the author want to make a clean story without caring about 'nasty implications' or go full war crime like Youjo Senki, I'll actually care when it actually happen.
(well, probably don't care that much, I ride whichever vibe the story go for mostly)

 

[jrocker]

I think the answer to what did he build the weapon for if not to use is to use against HIS enemies. He isn't against this other country. His enemy is the prince and nobility of the country he is fighting for. They might not realize it but after he saves her (or worse if he fails to) there is no reason to allow them to live and we've seen that they have basically no response to him.

 

[finalm]

I judge stories by what actually happen in it, I will not just presume certain things will happen.
Especially in a fantasy setting where literal god and magic exist.
Whether the author want to make a clean story without caring about 'nasty implications' or go full war crime like Youjo Senki, I'll actually care when it actually happen.
(well, probably don't care that much, I ride whichever vibe the story go for mostly)

I didn't say it definetly will happen. This is a hypothetical. If it happens, then so and so. Wasn't your initial comment also one? Pretty much the whole comment section was, after all, since people talked about what a shitshow the attack will likely be, based on what the characters discussed.

I know the story's author can basically pull anything out of his ass and it's law as far as the canon's concerned, but let's be real here - that's just shitty writing and deserves to be called out as such. Yes, it might be a different world, with magic and who knows what else, but people and their society are still portrayed in a way to be familiar to us for a reason. What I'm saying is, if you have a story with a medieval-like society, culture and technology, then it's only reasonable to expect that theme to extend to other areas, like the way they do warfare. If it doesn't, say the story suddenly states, that actually this feudal society is very progressive and humanitarian in their treatment of civillians during war, then you have the whole worldbuilding come to a screeching halt. That's because there's no way to justify such a glaring anachronism without using the equivalent of "a wizard did it". This is exactly what it looks like to me in that part where they say that some people actually left the soon-to-be-sieged city, though perhaps not on the same scale as my example. It just looks like a lack of basic research and deeper thought by the author. Both are sadly, very common in similar works.

 

[WhimsiCat]

Wasn't your initial comment also one?

That post was meant to be a joke, not a prediction.
On the same level of seriousness as these
I mean look at my profile pic, I enjoy dark humors.

If it didn't come across as a joke to you, understandable, can't say I land the joke that well myself either.

What I'm saying is, if you have a story with a medieval-like society, culture and technology, then it's only reasonable to expect that theme to extend to other areas, like the way they do warfare.

It's an isekai into otome-game story, expectations for anything outside the core romance/drama should start at several feet under and only raise if the story actually care to put any attention to it.