Kuse Tsuyo Kanojo wa Toko ni Izanau - Ch. 12.5

[Iamcheater]

If you JUST noticed how I edited my earlier post to answer your other post, then here's the same answer to what is effectively the same question. This also covers the reasoning behind the different expectations people would have because of the tag.

"I blame the translation of 尽くす系女子 being "devoted girl", it's literally the reason why we're having this discussion in the first place. The nuance is closer to a "yandere minus the insane part" than the western definition. I think the cognitive dissonance here is merely the result of defaultism, people see a word being used and they default to their own definition, regardless of what the word would've meant in the context of its original language."


By the Japanese definition of the archetype, she falls under it just on the fact that she's so dedicated to her boyfriend, she's willing to do whatever he demands of her. She went full devotard. Her first guy just wanting to pump and dump got her into a chain, until she eventually lands unto the MC with whom she learned to never go full devotard.

Then the description you are looking for is more or less people-pleaser. She wants to please the person in question and depending on how much of a people-pleaser she is, you have different levels of engagement.

Well that's different mate. Devoted girl and People-pleaser girl are massively different types girls not at all the same.

I have already agreed that the Luna from the trash fetish series is indeed a devoted girl. That doesn't change the fact that the entire premise, story telling and character writing of that series is absolute trash for the reasons I mentioned (and some that I haven't mentioned). Also I think you confused about which Luna I was talking about because I said devoted girlfriend but I was still talking about Luna from this manga not the trash fetish manga. As I have already said above this Luna, having the devoted girl (by definition of devoted as most western people understand it, not the Japanese "people-pleaser" definition you gave) is wrong, she doesn't fit the bill UNLIKE the other Luna that was getting railed, who is indeed a devoted girl.

This:

Tldr: This manga's Luna has not shown any convincing signs of being a devoted girl as a lover/girlfriend (which is what people expect when reading those tags, in this type of context) and she has hardly displayed that she is trying to be a devoted sister or family member. On the contrary the author chose to give heaps of evidence to point towards being the exact opposite of what a devoted girlfriend should be. So no, I don't think, in this kind of context, she fits the bill. Not even as a sister because even for that it's way too early. Which is why I am insisting the tag should have come later or not at all.

Is referring to THIS manga's Luna; Naoto's Luna-née. I wasn't referencing the high school whore Luna from "Our Dating story..." on that paragraph. Cause from your reply I get the feeling you think I disagreed that the high-school whore Luna fits the devoted girl tag, which I actually, several times already, agreed on. I just think the manga is trash (see above why)

 

[shinya78]

Then the description you are looking for is more or less people-pleaser. She wants to please the person in question and depending on how much of a people-pleaser she is, you have different levels of engagement.

Well that's different mate. Devoted girl and People-pleaser girl are massively different types girls not at all the same.

I don't know what else to say other than this is actually also culturally part of the archetype in the Japanese context, just dialed-up a notch or two. People-pleasing is so ingrained in their society that you'd be hard-pressed to find a Japanese person that can say 'No' to another, unless said person is their personal enemy. The western definition, specifically the "wholeheartedly giving towards another" part is also included in the archetype, so that's probably a reason why "devoted girl" was chosen as the go-to translation.

Also I think you confused about which Luna I was talking about because I said devoted girlfriend but I was still talking about Luna from this manga not the trash fetish manga. ...Is referring to THIS manga's Luna; Naoto's Luna-née. I wasn't referencing the high school whore Luna from "Our Dating story..." on that paragraph. Cause from your reply I get the feeling you think I disagreed that the high-school whore Luna fits the devoted girl tag, which I actually, several times already, agreed on. I just think the manga is trash (see above why)

Nope, check again. I specifically quoted a part where you're still talking about that other manga, thus I was referring to that Luna being the one that went full devotard, not Naoto's Luna.

Naoto's Luna on the other hand has her "devotion" level towards Naoto set to "above and beyond what a regular relative would do", more sus than wholesome yet it's still a form of devotion, enough to meet the criteria for the tag in Japan. It's just not up to the "romantic devotion" level, yet(tm). Case in point, when she said 'I love you' to Naoto in the tub, it's with the generic "dai suki" rather than with the romantic "aishiteru". She's just not there yet.

 

[Iamcheater]

Naoto's Luna on the other hand has her "devotion" level towards Naoto set to "above and beyond what a regular relative would do", more sus than wholesome yet it's still a form of devotion, enough to meet the criteria for the tag in Japan. It's just not up to the "romantic devotion" level, yet(tm). Case in point, when she said 'I love you' to Naoto in the tub, it's with the generic "dai suki" rather than with the romantic "aishiteru". She's just not there yet.

Bro this is getting confusing now... the word devotion is so incorrectly used in this context. Devotion, as a word, has a specific meaning in the English language. I get that you are trying to differentiate what's written in hiragana and what actually gets auto translated by Google but that's just not what devotion is, so maybe not use that word at all lol!

She's definitely not a devoted girl. She hasn't shown enough for us to call her devoted in the literal sense of word. She might meet the criteria for the Japanese meaning of that hiragana, however else you wish to call it, but going but what the word means in the English language, she's just not a devoted girl in the way a girl in love shows devotion to the man she loves. And I can't even say I saw enough to call her even devoted as a "sister".

So I get what you are saying that for the Japanese, she meets the criteria of whatever you wish to call that tag, but it's out of the premise of devotion or at least it doesn't translate to what a western reader would have expected when reading the tags "devoted girl" in a romance manga. Shina, the angel next door spoils me rotten, doesn't immediately realise that she's falling in love with the MC either but that's the example of what a western reader would expect when reading the tag "devoted girl", in a romance manga. Or Kusunoki from Kusunoki's high school glow up, another perfect example of a FMC, not immediately in love (or realising she's falling in love) but perfect example of "devotion".

So we can agree it's the wrong word used by Google translate but I am clarifying that in the literal, English meaning of a devoted girl
/girlfriend/girl in love, Luna is definitely not meeting the criteria. This is actually the same argument you have about not being convinced she's a slut. You need to see the flat out confirmation, or more irrefutable evidence before you accept she's a slut. In a similar fashion, we would have to see much more of her behaviour towards Naoto, to confirm she's devoted to him, in the true meaning of the word, not the Japanese interpretation for which apparently, based on what you say, she meets the criteria.

 

[shinya78]

Bro this is getting confusing now... the word devotion is so incorrectly used in this context. Devotion, as a word, has a specific meaning in the English language. I get that you are trying to differentiate what's written in hiragana and what actually gets auto translated by Google but that's just not what devotion is, so maybe not use that word at all lol!

I'm telling you as how it is.

Stop defaulting to the English definition, of the English interpretation, of the English translation. It's a Japanese work, with Japanese tags. A translation without the proper context from the original is not 100% accurate, and therefore should not be taken to be completely the same as the original.

If there's no direct translation of a word, you'll end up getting approximations, often times losing some of the nuance or details it had from the original. See the trope "Lost in Translation". Otherwise, people would just adapt the foreign word into their language as-is.

This is a reason why badly done MTLs are frowned upon.

She's definitely not a devoted girl. She hasn't shown enough for us to call her devoted in the literal sense of word. She might meet the criteria for the Japanese meaning of that hiragana, however else you wish to call it, but going but what the word means in the English language, she's just not a devoted girl in the way a girl in love shows devotion to the man she loves. And I can't even say I saw enough to call her even devoted as a "sister".

So I get what you are saying that for the Japanese, she meets the criteria of whatever you wish to call that tag, but it's out of the premise of devotion or at least it doesn't translate to what a western reader would have expected when reading the tags "devoted girl" in a romance manga. Shina, the angel next door spoils me rotten, doesn't immediately realise that she's falling in love with the MC either but that's the example of what a western reader would expect when reading the tag "devoted girl", in a romance manga. Or Kusunoki from Kusunoki's high school glow up, another perfect example of a FMC, not immediately in love (or realising she's falling in love) but perfect example of "devotion".

So we can agree it's the wrong word used by Google translate but I am clarifying that in the literal, English meaning of a devoted girl
/girlfriend/girl in love, Luna is definitely not meeting the criteria. This is actually the same argument you have about not being convinced she's a slut. You need to see the flat out confirmation, or more irrefutable evidence before you accept she's a slut. In a similar fashion, we would have to see much more of her behaviour towards Naoto, to confirm she's devoted to him, in the true meaning of the word, not the Japanese interpretation for which apparently, based on what you say, she meets the criteria.

Nearly every point here is moot because you are already defaulting to the western definition, as if that is 100% the Japanese manga's original intention. This is not an attack towards the English definition of a word, this is about the Japanese tag.

Nearly all the things she did directly towards Naoto so far, other than probably the submissions she gave him at one point, are a result of her being overly-doting towards the MC, this is more than what qualifies her for the tag. Would an older cousin willingly agree to giving their younger cousin a sloppy deep kiss for their birthday, just because the younger cousin asked them to? Unless they're from Sweet Home Alabama or something, most likely no, they won't. And that's just Luna going above and beyond, her taking him to the beach so he can experience it for the first time is more in-line with what a relative is expected to do. You know what, "doting girl" is probably a closer English interpretation for the Japanese tag than "devoted girl".

To be clear.

• The tags are put there via the discretion of the Japanese publisher.
• It is not a "Japanese interpretation", it is Japanese.
• It is not the English "Devoted Girl", it is the Japanese "Tsukusu-kei Joshi".
• The very Japanese manga, is using a very Japanese tag, with its very specific Japanese meaning.
• English approximated interpretations, can and will lose some details from the original, when the original has no direct equivalent.
• The English interpretation that is "Devoted Girl", does not 100% have the same meaning as the Japanese tag "Tsukusu-kei Joshi".
• The English tag is merely similar to the Japanese tag, it is not the same.

 

[biologist]

I am not against incest but I like fang girl more.
I am too averse to cigarette to like Hiba.

 

[madeinyevon]

Hmm, I saw this argument like a week ago and I really don't want to get involved(please don't reply to me) but I have to say I do agree with Iamcheater on at least one point.

I'm not gonna argue on the "Devoted girl" tag itself, my reasoning is even more simple than that; it's the fact that you have "Lovey-dovey"(I assume it says icha rabu in the original? Idk what site it is) tag AND "Devoted girl" tag together. Regardless of your take on what "Devoted girl" tag means, putting it side by side with "Lovey-dovey" to describe this manga is just wrong to me and I'm sure plenty of new readers would get the wrong idea if they were to see those tags.

"Lovey-dovey" and "Devoted-girl" would make anyone think it's a pure love, romance manga between MC and the heroine, which this manga is... not exactly what I'd call it. Like for every 1 lovey-dovey scene you see in this manga, you'd get like 10 more PTSD level of NTR Bait scenes(putting aside the fact that I'm 1000% sure it will turn out to be actual NTR).

Uh.. just my opinion ^_^.

 

[Iamcheater]

You know what, "doting girl" is probably a closer English interpretation for the Japanese tag than "devoted girl".

To be clear.

• The tags are put there via the discretion of the Japanese publisher.
• It is not a "Japanese interpretation", it is Japanese.
• It is not the English "Devoted Girl", it is the Japanese "Tsukusu-kei Joshi".
• The very Japanese manga, is using a very Japanese tag, with its very specific Japanese meaning.
• English approximated interpretations, can and will lose some details from the original, when the original has no direct equivalent.
• The English interpretation that is "Devoted Girl", does not 100% have the same meaning as the Japanese tag "Tsukusu-kei Joshi".
• The English tag is merely similar to the Japanese tag, it is not the same.

You do understand that this bit here was the only thing you needed to say to make me relent and agree with you right? Like I feel everything you said above that paragraph was just an attempt to argue.

Because in reality, you can be a total slut but be a dotting slut. The fact that she's dotting on him, yeah I can accept that. I said it so many times I am not sure why you choose to ignore it: since we agreed devoted girl was an inaccurate translation of the tag therefore inaccurate description of Luna, all you needed to say was the above quoted paragraph and I would have been like "Yeah okay, that's actually fair" lol

 

[shinya78]

I'm not gonna argue on the "Devoted girl" tag itself, my reasoning is even more simple than that; it's the fact that you have "Lovey-dovey"(I assume it says icha rabu in the original? Idk what site it is) tag AND "Devoted girl" tag together. Regardless of your take on what "Devoted girl" tag means, putting it side by side with "Lovey-dovey" to describe this manga is just wrong to me and I'm sure plenty of new readers would get the wrong idea if they were to see those tags.

"Lovey-dovey" and "Devoted-girl" would make anyone think it's a pure love, romance manga between MC and the heroine, which this manga is... not exactly what I'd call it. Like for every 1 lovey-dovey scene you see in this manga, you'd get like 10 more PTSD level of NTR Bait scenes(putting aside the fact that I'm 1000% sure it will turn out to be actual NTR).

Oh boy, time to explain Japanese tags again.

• Icha-icha basically means flirting.
• The "Icha" part in "Icha-Rabu" refers to the supposed relationship being "flirty".
• It's effectively when the girls are getting their "moment" with the MC, a lot of which is Luna's moments.
• The combination does not necessarily make it "pure love", because that's a totally different tag altogether.
• That would either be the "Jun Ai" tag (Pure Love in the literal sense), or the "Ren Ai" tag (just straight up the Romance genre in the traditional sense), which for some reason is missing from the page (this is actually what makes the 'is Luna a slut or not' debate a thing).

And then we have the "spoil-em'-rotten" tag, "Deki Ai", which literally means "Drowning Love", doting on one's partner to the point of drowning them with it.

You do understand that this bit here was the only thing you needed to say to make me relent and agree with you right? Like I feel everything you said above that paragraph was just an attempt to argue.

Because in reality, you can be a total slut but be a dotting slut. The fact that she's dotting on him, yeah I can accept that. I said it so many times I am not sure why you choose to ignore it: since we agreed devoted girl was an inaccurate translation of the tag therefore inaccurate description of Luna, all you needed to say was the above quoted paragraph and I would have been like "Yeah okay, that's actually fair" lol

I mean it's meant to be the tldr, just worded differently. The paragraph above it was just the itch to be thorough that I couldn't help but scratch.

 

[madeinyevon]

Oh boy, time to explain Japanese tags again.

• Icha-icha basically means flirting.
• The "Icha" part in "Icha-Rabu" refers to the supposed relationship being "flirty".
• It's effectively when the girls are getting their "moment" with the MC, a lot of which is Luna's moment

First three points are irrelevant because, not only did you get on a high horse to explain what you assumed I didn't already know, but also I never contested the validity of "Lovey-dovey" tag by itself(and if you read, I don't even know if that's the tag being used there, I only based everything I said according to the TL'd screenshot).

I only said seeing both tags together would give the wrong impression, which you're free to disagree with your fourth and fifth points. And again, what I'm contesting here is what most people would think when they see those tags, not whatever textbook definition of the tags you think they mean.

You think the tags are appropriate for this manga? Sure, that's fine, I don't even have anything to say against that.
But if you ask me whether a lot of people will get the wrong idea from seeing these tags? In my opinion(not a fact), yes and you can disagree with that but no need to "school" me on whatever it is you think I'm lacking(that is to say, no need to reply this post, just ignore me and carry on).

 

[shinya78]

First three points are irrelevant because, not only did you get on a high horse to explain what you assumed I didn't already know, but also I never contested the validity of "Lovey-dovey" tag by itself(and if you read, I don't even know if that's the tag being used there, I only based everything I said according to the TL'd screenshot).

For the first three points, I'm only stating what 'Icha Rabu' means for anyone else reading after us, if they don't already know what it meant. Not only did you get on a high horse to assume I'm specifically targeting you, but I indeed read your post and even acknowledged that you correctly assumed the tag was indeed 'Icha Rabu' by not even mentioning "Lovey-dovey" in the reply even once.

I only said seeing both tags together would give the wrong impression, which you're free to disagree with your fourth and fifth points. And again, what I'm contesting here is what most people would think when they see those tags, not whatever textbook definition of the tags you think they mean.

Well yeah, if they saw specifically those translations being used, they likely would. More so if those were the official tags being used for an official English translation. What I'm contesting here is your "most people" would be the people outside the manga's country of origin that relies on third-party translations. For the original intended Japanese audience, they would think otherwise when they see those tags, not whatever textbook definition of the tags you think they mean.

You think the tags are appropriate for this manga? Sure, that's fine, I don't even have anything to say against that.
But if you ask me whether a lot of people will get the wrong idea from seeing these tags? In my opinion(not a fact), yes and you can disagree with that but no need to "school" me on whatever it is you think I'm lacking(that is to say, no need to reply this post, just ignore me and carry on).

As far as the Japanese publisher's are concerned? Sure, that's what they decided on, the tags never even bothered me in the first place.
But if you ask my opinion, people really shouldn't be too concerned expecting Tag C when they assume Tag A + Tag B = Tag C, if Tag C already exists as its own entity; and if for some reason you think me quoting you earlier then providing additional information for everyone else is me singling you out, then I suggest you read that post again to see if I even agreed or disagreed with that you initially said, no need to reply to this post, just ignore me and carry on.