When the Villainess Meets the Yandere - Vol. 5 Ch. 42 - Looking Forward to the New You

[Andigo]

As I've said before, I love and hate Irene.

I should have precised I meant the red haired girl who wants to break Faye and remodel her to her own desires, but yeah that too

Hahaha, yeah she's always treading the line between feminist and creep. That line was good... toxic lesbian foreshadowing

If you can't say anything back (especially to the other line from Irene I quoted) feel free, sounds like you can't handle arguments anyway.

Look, I can see where you're coming from but Irene has always had predatory undertones that are easy to excuse because Fay is a brat and genuinely deserves someone to care. The translation hasn't caught up to where it gets blatant VERY SOON but, yeah... Just, canonically? Take the characterization more seriously.

 

[shemper]

Hahaha, yeah she's always treading the line between feminist and creep. That line was good...

Her intentions alone show she fully overstep this line, I do read toxic yuri and have no issue with it but that doesn't mean I'm going to lie to myself

 

[WhimsiCat]

Look, I can see where you're coming from but Irene has always had predatory undertones that are easy to excuse because Fay is a brat and genuinely deserves someone to care. The translation hasn't caught up to where it gets blatant VERY SOON but, yeah... Just, canonically? Take the characterization more seriously.

I mean the author hasn't been subtle about trying to ship Irene and Faye for sure, but I'm not calling her toxic in this situation when she's done nothing like that.

If I missed/forgot something she did that you think was toxic, do tell.

But otherwise I'll call something toxic when it actually get toxic, not from 'prediction'/spoiler.
Like, knowing how Jolene and Hesha get to this two idiots in love level isn't going to make me think their actions in early chapters were 'sweet'.

 

[Andigo]

Her intentions alone show she fully overstep this line, I do read toxic yuri and have no issue with it but that doesn't mean I'm going to lie to myself

I can't stand a lot of toxic yuri, but Irene is an exception. She's great. Heroic. Gets so much worse from here.

If I missed/forgot something she did that you think was toxic, do tell.

I said characterization. You asked for it... Irene is close to the white lotus (白蓮花) character type that Faye wants to be: Irene uses sweetness and deceit to manipulate a girl who looks up to her. Since boundaries are only nudged, and the words spoken are largely true, it can be denied there was foul play. The approach works in formal settings IRL, was/is a key weapon of upper class culture (especially women who need deniability), and is a very common type of sociopath villainess in Chinese fiction like this baihe story. It's no surprise that the highest ranking female character is a white lotus, but it is a welcome surprise that Irene is this nuanced.

So, basically every conversation between Irene and Faye was toxic. Jolene and Hesha's boundary violations have been about passion. Irene's boundary violations of personal space and emotional comfort seemed minor in comparison, yet she's been toying with Faye to prove her points.

Faye is irritable and easy to handle if she respects you, and Irene manipulates her desperation for acknowledgment while violating her boundaries. You probably had expectations what Faye would do next by the end of each interaction, and Irene is a genius who knows her well. How many of Faye's missteps occur after Irene ticked her off, with Irene satisfied at Faye's frustration and dwindling horizons? Most? Who is the only person who reined in Faye? Now the only friend, the only support system Faye can confide in after cutting off the prince who was like a brother, is the very woman who wound her up to fumble the interaction that badly. So sorry you missed it but she's been grooming the girl who looks up to her while progressively isolating her...

You don't need spoilers, it's much more fun without them. But gods this woman is really bad news. Always has been. Yet she's politically on the right side.

 

[amShepherd]

The translation hasn't caught up to where it gets blatant VERY SOON but, yeah...

Can’t wait till I get to the chapters where they

Spoiler

go on a trip together

Those won’t be divisive at all.

 

[WhimsiCat]

I said characterization. You asked for it...

I asked for ACTIONS. Y'know, point to moments when she was being toxic.

Like this
https://mangadex.org/chapter/c817c790-6bd5-4a8f-baba-26f7882086cc/1
Openly glomping her, calling her cute and going basically 'yeah, I don't like men' to the prince = toxic? How is this closing horizons for Faye? What 'missteps' Faye did here?

How many of Faye's missteps occur after Irene ticked her off, with Irene satisfied at Faye's frustration and dwindling horizons? Most? Who is the only person who reined in Faye? Now the only friend, the only support system Faye can confide in after cutting off the prince who was like a brother, is the very woman who wound her up to fumble the interaction that badly. So sorry you missed it but she's been grooming the girl who looks up to her while progressively isolating her...

Going through all the chapters Irene actually interact with Faye....
1st one is above...no harm done to Faye, if anything Dana was sympathizing with her....

2nd time
https://mangadex.org/chapter/2aff0ef8-882f-4a42-9820-2dfbe672b55c/1
Faye tried to get Irene to have allergic reaction (could be taken even as assassination attempt depending on how allergic she is) and Irene lied back at her (which embarrass her later when the prince clear up the lie)
Faye shot first, but sure, Irene lied to her here.
Following that up
https://mangadex.org/chapter/325ec24d-d652-451d-8c03-bca68de6e6cd/1
Again, Faye acted first and Irene retaliate. However again Dana is likely putting the blame on Irene given he's known about her.
However both times Faye started things first, and I'd argue there's no 'missteps' or 'dwindling horizons' as a result of either since it's mostly between them.

https://mangadex.org/chapter/d977844f-c842-4ae7-b8a3-e72286c0ae1a/1
https://mangadex.org/chapter/c1b4e9f8-4a75-4901-9d60-67e0cc1cdf7f/1
Possibly toxic with the threat, but no real missteps on Faye side.
Also Faye thinking Arnold like men was Faye's own instigation to begin with, so her misunderstanding/closing of horizons here was self-inflicted.

https://mangadex.org/chapter/9163a769-5045-4c73-9d29-e82040aa7ef0/1
Just a quick 'oh, u enjoying yuri now?' tease.

And this time (starting from last chapter https://mangadex.org/chapter/9417f733-c678-4f4a-9f8c-39a88549d5dd/1 )
Could her telling about Dana's possible engagement to get Faye to act quickly be toxic? Maybe.
But does Dana rejecting Faye to blame on Irene? Doubt it, it was going to happen regardless.

So by the evidences so far? Most of it are self-inflicted, barely any are actually result of Irene's nudging nor has Irene been isolating her.

 

[Eukene]

I asked for ACTIONS. Y'know, point to moments when she was being toxic.

Like this
https://mangadex.org/chapter/c817c790-6bd5-4a8f-baba-26f7882086cc/1
Openly glomping her, calling her cute and going basically 'yeah, I don't like men' to the prince = toxic? How is this closing horizons for Faye? What 'missteps' Faye did here?



Going through all the chapters Irene actually interact with Faye....
1st one is above...no harm done to Faye, if anything Dana was sympathizing with her....

2nd time
https://mangadex.org/chapter/2aff0ef8-882f-4a42-9820-2dfbe672b55c/1
Faye tried to get Irene to have allergic reaction (could be taken even as assassination attempt depending on how allergic she is) and Irene lied back at her (which embarrass her later when the prince clear up the lie)
Faye shot first, but sure, Irene lied to her here.
Following that up
https://mangadex.org/chapter/325ec24d-d652-451d-8c03-bca68de6e6cd/1
Again, Faye acted first and Irene retaliate. However again Dana is likely putting the blame on Irene given he's known about her.
However both times Faye started things first, and I'd argue there's no 'missteps' or 'dwindling horizons' as a result of either since it's mostly between them.

https://mangadex.org/chapter/d977844f-c842-4ae7-b8a3-e72286c0ae1a/1
https://mangadex.org/chapter/c1b4e9f8-4a75-4901-9d60-67e0cc1cdf7f/1
Possibly toxic with the threat, but no real missteps on Faye side.
Also Faye thinking Arnold like men was Faye's own instigation to begin with, so her misunderstanding/closing of horizons here was self-inflicted.

https://mangadex.org/chapter/9163a769-5045-4c73-9d29-e82040aa7ef0/1
Just a quick 'oh, u enjoying yuri now?' tease.

And this time (starting from last chapter https://mangadex.org/chapter/9417f733-c678-4f4a-9f8c-39a88549d5dd/1 )
Could her telling about Dana's possible engagement to get Faye to act quickly be toxic? Maybe.
But does Dana rejecting Faye to blame on Irene? Doubt it, it was going to happen regardless.

So by the evidences so far? Most of it are self-inflicted, barely any are actually result of Irene's nudging nor has Irene been isolating her.

I think you're right. Irene is creepy and unpleasant to me, but has avoided 'crossing the line' so to speak. This is especially in comparison to many other characters in the story, who have done significantly worse.

There seems to be some kind of fantasy here about an older student having their way with a younger student, but in a way where it's good for the younger student even if the younger student doesn't realize it yet. Therefore she can gloat in the halls like a B rate villain and wait for Faye to go through her own processes because she doesn't need to do anything bad to get what she wants. At least that's where this seems to be going and it sounds like a development some would like.

Faye can even become the arch lesbian if she marries Irene (who was a duchess I think? the best you can get after the royal family) and first officially lesbian wife all other lesbian wifes will look to throughout history. Faye would like that more than larping as a socialist to keep up appearances for Dana.

Ah well, I don't have to enjoy every character.

 

[Rath_Attack]

lol hesha working out how to optimize her sloppy makeouts with jolene

Girl is going put together an entire PowerPoint presentation when they get to sex.

 

[Andigo]

I asked for ACTIONS. Y'know, point to moments when she was being toxic.

And I said characterization. What I intend matters to conversation. I'll try to be a bit more precise. This is an aspect of Irene treats Faye, not a binary good or evil, and not even very heavy manipulation yet. I explicitly made clear the character isn't simple, and the power abuse is a light touch and deniability so far. A white lotus noblewoman only hinting at her dark side. You balked or just don't see it yet, but I appreciate you tried reading the scenes again.

Dana isn't an idiot. Faye sort of is though. Funny how Faye's self-inflicted issues, not just from being wrong but being vicious about it and failing to make allies, aren't helped by Irene. Faye's interpretation of each situation is what matters to Irene. And Irene pushes Faye's buttons to rile up her attitude to be more likely to bungle relationships, while staying unaccountable.

It's not a big issue to miss foreshadowing. If multiple people bring that sort of thing up, even invoking parts you haven't read yet, it's worth half a step to consider the character has depth you missed. I wasn't that surprised by Irene later on, so even if you're surprised you don't get to pretend she was written unfairly. Considering both Faye and Hesha go through snide "green tea bitch"-coded phases as lonely amoral failgirls, a genuinely competent "white lotus"-coded villainess is a nice shift. All three are about equally bad at their worst.

The power relations stuff isn't black and white. It's no inherent issue that Irene gets in Faye's bubble and teases her. She's well within the healthy let alone unhealthy range of BSDM fetish in the story. Irene being a hot flirty upperclassman definitely isn't the issue. But as of this chapter, Faye has no one but someone that other people have warned you is a red flag. If you don't see the red flag, great, it's a life skill to get better at spotting them. There's much much worse learning experiences than trusting a white lotus character too much.

 

[WhimsiCat]

snip

Look, at this point we're basically talking about 2 different things.

You're talking about Irene character being white lotus, red flag, etc.
I. DON'T. CARE. her being master manipulator or whatever she'll get up to doesn't change whether her CURRENT ACTION is a toxic one (the thing the other guy commented on and what I've been talking about, her actions SO FAR)

And every time you comment, you come back to her characters, not what she's done.
So you're just making arguments on things I don't care about.

It'd be like if I comment in early chapter how Jolene is being toxic to Hesha then you go "oh but she's so sweet" because of things she'll do several chapters later. Her becoming sweet later doesn't change the action she took at the time.

If you don't see the red flag, great, it's a life skill to get better at spotting them. There's much much worse learning experiences than trusting a white lotus character too much.

You'd think anyone who read the series "villainess meets the YANDERE" this far wouldn't give a shit about character having red flag, but if you feel the need to give warning this late into the series, you do you I guess.

 

[Andigo]

Look, at this point we're basically talking about 2 different things.

You're talking about Irene character being white lotus, red flag, etc.
I. DON'T. CARE. her being master manipulator or whatever she'll get up to doesn't change whether her CURRENT ACTION is a toxic one

Nope. The point still is you don't understand a side of the character in basically all the scenes. Which I said at the start. Since it's Irene's default, I didn't need to reference more specifically than you already did, or this chapter showed. You insisting leads to me inputting that there's not only something you're missing but it builds up more. And breaks things. It would be fine to say "I don't see it, I'll wait and see". If the conversation ended there, with you skeptical but unable to disprove a negative, that's pretty normal and healthy literature talk.

Yet repeatedly, you're not really arguing with me, but with some phantom of what you think I'm getting at. You not getting "red flag" as danger (maybe accelerate faster) and not "stop"? Sure, maybe you don't talk romance much, the metaphor can be misleading for some. You disavowing subtext as a core component of communication in a Chinese romance story? Bold, utterly preposterous, but still good fun. Moral outrage stuff for a character I like overall? Misreading me this badly proves subtext and cultural competence aren't the core issue, you're losing the thread at the point of opinions differing from yours, or maybe at the temerity of talking about a problematic person without condemning her.

I can't expect you to parse some big literary assignment when you can't even recognize how many times I said I like the character. She's interesting. If you don't see it then look forward to it, don't start hallucinating my intentions. If you're really young and not raised for showing face or if you're wired to prioritize the literal actions before intentions, that's life. But no one should talk to you if you can't regularly entertain the notion you have blind spots, nor if you treat disagreement as literally outrageous. Be more whimsical or something, less binary. Else you'll be impossible to reason with.

 

[WhimsiCat]

You insisting leads to me inputting that there's not only something you're missing but it builds up more. And breaks things. It would be fine to say "I don't see it, I'll wait and see". If the conversation ended there, with you skeptical but unable to disprove a negative, that's pretty normal and healthy literature talk.

And you still never answered any of the things I actually asked.

Yet repeatedly, you're not really arguing with me, but with some phantom of what you think I'm getting at.

Because the thing you're getting at, isn't what I've been talking about.

Neither you nor the other guy ever answered the thing I actually asked.

you're losing the thread at the point of opinions differing from yours, or maybe at the temerity of talking about a problematic person without condemning her.

Like you mine? That argument goes both ways just sayin.

So rather ironic you say this

If you don't see it then look forward to it, don't start hallucinating my intentions.

When you seem to be hallucinating mine this whole time.

But no one should talk to you if you can't regularly entertain the notion you have blind spots, nor if you treat disagreement as literally outrageous. Be more whimsical or something, less binary. Else you'll be impossible to reason with.

I did entertain the notion that I have blind spots, that's literally why I asked the question earlier?
But no, instead of getting any answer to what I actually asked you came in with 'just look forward to it bro' and all the talk on her characters.

Yeah, surely someone 'missing the subtext' would totally get it if you mock them about missing it instead of actually explaining, such great teacher you are.

 

[FionaWitch]

So, Irene succeeded on breaking the old Faye seeing getting rejected by Prince Dana and excited to meet the new (gay🤭)Faye.
Meanwhile, Hesha’s been brainstorming and sketching so hard how to be a good kisser to Jolene. Wonderful! The lesbians are almost in full circle!😂😍🌈

 

[Eukene]

Personally I'm not seeing white lotus. Irene has been clear about her intentions from the start and makes no effort to appear pure or innocent. The main difference between Irene and other characters in this regard is that Irene has had relatively little screen time. We could easily selectively link Faye, Hesta, or Jolene and argue for a white lotus interpretation, but it would be obviously wrong based on the rest of the comic. We don't have additional comics of Irene yet. Still, the absence of information about a side character isn't evidence that character is being sneaky or manipulative in a way others aren't. The main established difference is her higher levels of smugness.

 

[SuperMachamp]

I am just rolling my eyes at people applying their real world ethics to fiction. Yawn.

 

[N2O]

If someone offered to change their political views to match mine in order to be in a relationship with me, I'd stay far, faaaaar away from that person forever I could never trust any opinion they have to be real since clearly they're willing to flip flop on anything as long as it benefits them. Changing stance on things should come by calm and rational reflection, trying to understand the other side and the nuances of the situation, questioning your own thinking, while still presenting your own view in a way that is civil and productive so all voices are heard

TL;DR who tf just goes "I'll pretend/learn to agree with all your political stances, so pls marry me". Very cringe