Atashitachi tte Tsukiatteru yo ne!? - Ch. 1

[Beastkun]

in the reading list it goes love me some Yuri

not to mention will be interesting to see how long they misunderstand each other and finally realize whats really going on lol

 

[FillerKiller420]

its feels good to pretend I am neither of these people while in actuality I am both

 

[FiddlePop]

Aww man, I was really hoping the black haired girl is plain stupid/unaware.
And that the ending would be that they are married as friends, while having adopted children. All the while twintails still being paranoid.
That would have been so damn funny.

 

[feignedremoteness]

Honestly, this sorta feels like it was originally written as het before being hastily scribbled over as yuri, which is kinda putting me off it a bit. I'm not sure if I can totally articulate why; it just feels like the way Shino conceptualizes what's going on doesn't make sense in a culture where heterosexuality is the norm. (Which we know this is meant to be due to the waitress' comment)

This seems like a fun concept, so I'll probably keep reading it, but I dunno. It just feels off.

not really? I understand where you’re coming from, but there’s a big gap between “heterosexuality is normative, so a waitress will assume you’re just two friends” and “heterosexuality is so assumed and homosexuality is so repressed/hidden that it won’t even cross your mind that the girl that constantly flirts with you might actually Mean It”

that gap is actually the reality for…a lot of lesbians and bisexual women….just because you live in a place that’s not homophobic, that doesn’t mean random waitresses will never make assumptions? or friends will never get weirded out if you like them? I think it’s that yuri often seems like it either takes place in Real Life Repression World, or Normal And No One Comments World, so I get that it can feel weird to read a story that is silly and farcical but isn’t firmly in the latter setting.

or maybe it’s that this kind of misunderstanding-yuri usually has the protagonists come from a place of naivety/innocence, where the plot has to introduce them to the idea that holding hands might mean something or that touching might be lewd? so maybe it feels like they should either be more mature or more innocent, instead of the confused horny teen vibe that we associate with Boys. but I think that’s also limiting…it’s ok for a girl to know that boobs are sexy but still panic about admitting her feelings. it’s normal

 

[FiddlePop]

its feels good to pretend I am neither of these people while in actuality I am both

Wait a minute...that implies a lot of things

 

[TheLostLight]

Oh hell yeah, I am so into this.
It's actually quite different, but at first the concept reminded me of this two-shot which I adore and always wanted a longer, more fleshed out version of: https://mangadex.org/chapter/30f181e2-74ac-45d9-a2f8-baf8c79a8707 and this looks like it could scratch that itch.

Also, Sara is sooooo dumb and a complete self-saboteur. I love it. Can't wait for the next chapter!

 

[TheLostLight]

Honestly, this sorta feels like it was originally written as het before being hastily scribbled over as yuri, which is kinda putting me off it a bit. I'm not sure if I can totally articulate why; it just feels like the way Shino conceptualizes what's going on doesn't make sense in a culture where heterosexuality is the norm. (Which we know this is meant to be due to the waitress' comment)

This seems like a fun concept, so I'll probably keep reading it, but I dunno. It just feels off.

Yeah, I also don't see how this would work as het. How would a het person be so close and intimate with their friends that they mistakenly think they're dating before any type of confession while the other party thinks they're friends? Not saying it's impossible, but it's much harder to imagine than with a pair of female friends. And how would a het couple do intimate things like holding hands and offering to touch each other's bodies while one of them think it's platonic and the other thinks it's romantic flirting? Again, not impossible, but it seems really far-fetched compared to the version we got. Seems pretty clearly intended to be yuri from the start to me...

 

[Lunkli]

not really? I understand where you’re coming from, but there’s a big gap between “heterosexuality is normative, so a waitress will assume you’re just two friends” and “heterosexuality is so assumed and homosexuality is so repressed/hidden that it won’t even cross your mind that the girl that constantly flirts with you might actually Mean It” [...]

Nah, you're not really understanding what I'm taking issue with. But, like I said, it's kinda hard to explain, so it's not like I really expected anyone to get it. It seems like most people aren't getting the same feeling from it I'm getting, though, so maybe it's all in my head. Who knows.

It's just, like, a lot of how we conceptualize "flirting" is a cultural thing; it doesn't some pre-engraved in our subconscious mind that "holding hands is what couples do." That's a framework we build up when we're young from observing the couples (real and fictional) that we witness in our daily lives. And because of the society we live in, most of what we observe during this period of our life is heterosexual couples, which influences that unconscious framework we build up.

So while it's totally normal and totally reasonable for Shino to consciously interpret Sara's actions as flirting, even if that's not her initial unconscious interpretation, we end up getting the opposite of that here. Her unconscious interpretation is that Sara is flirting, while her conscious interpretation is that she isn't. This is pretty clear if you watch her actions and thoughts: When Sara does something, Shino first freaks out and panics, then consciously thinks "No, I'm just misunderstanding." That's backwards of what you'd expect, as if it doesn't fit the framework, it shouldn't trigger the unconscious reaction, even if she's able consciously come to that conclusion.

Anyways, I'm still not entirely sure if I'm getting this across well. If you don't think this makes sense, then maybe it's just nonsense! I'm not a neurologist or sociologist or psychologist whatever field this would fall under. It's very possible that I'm just wrong.

 

[Lunkli]

Yeah, I also don't see how this would work as het. How would a het person be so close and intimate with their friends that they mistakenly think they're dating before any type of confession while the other party thinks they're friends? Not saying it's impossible, but it's much harder to imagine than with a pair of female friends. And how would a het couple do intimate things like holding hands and offering to touch each other's bodies while one of them think it's platonic and the other thinks it's romantic flirting? Again, not impossible, but it seems really far-fetched compared to the version we got. Seems pretty clearly intended to be yuri from the start to me...

I recommend reading my comment above to get a better understanding of what I'm trying to get at, but to address your point specifically, I think it's important to remember that both of them are interpreting this as romantic. Even if Shino is consciously rationalizing everything as platonic, ultimately she's still seeing these things through a romantic light. And as the ending reveals, all of this is Sara intentionally flirting. They're interpreting these things the same way, the only difference is that Shino then decides that she must have been wrong.

 

[undeadman]

Another story where if they just had an honest discussion they would be dating within the day simply incredible

 

[undeadman]

Nah, you're not really understanding what I'm taking issue with. But, like I said, it's kinda hard to explain, so it's not like I really expected anyone to get it. It seems like most people aren't getting the same feeling from it I'm getting, though, so maybe it's all in my head. Who knows.

It's just, like, a lot of how we conceptualize "flirting" is a cultural thing; it doesn't some pre-engraved in our subconscious mind that "holding hands is what couples do." That's a framework we build up when we're young from observing the couples (real and fictional) that we witness in our daily lives. And because of the society we live in, most of what we observe during this period of our life is heterosexual couples, which influences that unconscious framework we build up.

So while it's totally normal and totally reasonable for Shino to consciously interpret Sara's actions as flirting, even if that's not her initial unconscious interpretation, we end up getting the opposite of that here. Her unconscious interpretation is that Sara is flirting, while her conscious interpretation is that she isn't. This is pretty clear if you watch her actions and thoughts: When Sara does something, Shino first freaks out and panics, then consciously thinks "No, I'm just misunderstanding." That's backwards of what you'd expect, as if it doesn't fit the framework, it shouldn't trigger the unconscious reaction, even if she's able consciously come to that conclusion.

Anyways, I'm still not entirely sure if I'm getting this across well. If you don't think this makes sense, then maybe it's just nonsense! I'm not a neurologist or sociologist or psychologist whatever field this would fall under. It's very possible that I'm just wrong.

Dawg that was incredibly well explained and put together

 

[feignedremoteness]

Nah, you're not really understanding what I'm taking issue with. But, like I said, it's kinda hard to explain, so it's not like I really expected anyone to get it. It seems like most people aren't getting the same feeling from it I'm getting, though, so maybe it's all in my head. Who knows.

It's just, like, a lot of how we conceptualize "flirting" is a cultural thing; it doesn't some pre-engraved in our subconscious mind that "holding hands is what couples do." That's a framework we build up when we're young from observing the couples (real and fictional) that we witness in our daily lives. And because of the society we live in, most of what we observe during this period of our life is heterosexual couples, which influences that unconscious framework we build up.

So while it's totally normal and totally reasonable for Shino to consciously interpret Sara's actions as flirting, even if that's not her initial unconscious interpretation, we end up getting the opposite of that here. Her unconscious interpretation is that Sara is flirting, while her conscious interpretation is that she isn't. This is pretty clear if you watch her actions and thoughts: When Sara does something, Shino first freaks out and panics, then consciously thinks "No, I'm just misunderstanding." That's backwards of what you'd expect, as if it doesn't fit the framework, it shouldn't trigger the unconscious reaction, even if she's able consciously come to that conclusion.

Anyways, I'm still not entirely sure if I'm getting this across well. If you don't think this makes sense, then maybe it's just nonsense! I'm not a neurologist or sociologist or psychologist whatever field this would fall under. It's very possible that I'm just wrong.

I honestly don’t think that’s true though. being a teenager with fraught emotions means that proximity to your crush is automatically “exciting” and “charged.”
many baby lesbians and bi girls DO have to go through the steps to realize that those feelings aren’t just “nervousness” or “excitement (for friendship??)” but rather “crushing”, because they have internalized homophobia and won’t interpret the unconscious feelings correctly. but the unconscious feelings ARE there.

and not everyone has the same levels of internalization, and not everyone sees the same images of other couples. I mean, when I was 14 I had already READ yuri manga. it’s not rocket science.

I am basing this reading off of my own personal experiences, to be clear.

basically I think you’re assuming a society-wide even blanket of Repression and Compulsory Homosexuality. real life doesn’t work that way, people from the same place or at the same highschool will have different types of internalization.

 

[Lunkli]

I honestly don’t think that’s true though. being a teenager with fraught emotions means that proximity to your crush is automatically “exciting” and “charged.”
many baby lesbians and bi girls DO have to go through the steps to realize that those feelings aren’t just “nervousness” or “excitement (for friendship??)” but rather “crushing”, because they have internalized homophobia and won’t interpret the unconscious feelings correctly. but the unconscious feelings ARE there.

and not everyone has the same levels of internalization, and not everyone sees the same images of other couples. I mean, when I was 14 I had already READ yuri manga. it’s not rocket science.

I am basing this reading off of my own personal experiences, to be clear.

basically I think you’re assuming a society-wide even blanket of Repression and Compulsory Homosexuality. real life doesn’t work that way, people from the same place or at the same highschool will have different types of internalization.

Ehhh, I still think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying, as what I'm talking about has nothing to do with repression or compulsory heterosexuality, (which I assume is what you meant when you wrote "compulsory homosexuality?") and it's more about how other people's actions are interpreted than your own feelings or your own crush.

Like, I'm not taking issue with the fact that Shino recognizes that she has a crush on Sara, and I don't think that there's any issue with that, or anything about her own feelings towards Sara. Rather, what I find odd is that her instinctual reaction to Sara's actions are "Sara is flirting with me," despite the fact that probably should be a conscious reaction, if anything, rather than an unconscious one.

Because we live in a society that predominantly pushes to display heterosexual couples rather than homosexual ones, even if people know that they themselves are gay or lesbian or bi or pan or whatever other term they use to describe themself, people don't typically immediately assume that other people are the same, you know? So the consideration of "is this person also a lesbian?" should usually be a conscious one.

And that's not to say that there's absolutely no life Shino could have lived that would allow her to develop such to instinctually interpret another girl's affection as flirting! If she had an older sister who was dating another girl, and often saw them flirting, she could easily internalize that. It's just that there really isn't any evidence for that right now, and there's nothing to suggest that there ever will be an explanation, so that void just ends up making something feel wrong.

Anyways, I can try to explain further if you want, but I don't think it's really necessary, right? Like, we have different interpretations of things based on our own personal experiences and lives, and that's fine. We don't have to agree on something so minor as whether this chapter feels slightly off or not.

 

[TheLostLight]

I recommend reading my comment above to get a better understanding of what I'm trying to get at, but to address your point specifically, I think it's important to remember that both of them are interpreting this as romantic. Even if Shino is consciously rationalizing everything as platonic, ultimately she's still seeing these things through a romantic light. And as the ending reveals, all of this is Sara intentionally flirting. They're interpreting these things the same way, the only difference is that Shino then decides that she must have been wrong.

I see, what I'm getting from you after reading through all of your comments—and correct me if I'm wrong—is that you feel like Shino's sexual repression should be on a deeper level in a heteronormative society. You believe that heteronormativity should be instinctual for her, and homoromanticism should be something something that she needs to rationalize toward.

If that's the case, then I think you just have an overly rigid view of queer characterization, and I still disagree that this setup would lend itself more naturally to het. What we've seen from this chapter shows us that Shino has a personality that easily falls in love and becomes very infatuated with her crush, but she's also very in tune with her feelings. Thus, it makes sense that these overly intimate interactions with her crushes causes a romantic reaction within her, and she's under no pretense that it's anything else. That's what got her in trouble with her previous crush: she correctly identified that their interactions caused a romantic reaction within her, and assumed that her crush felt the same way. So she naturally assumed that if her crush continued to initiate romantic gestures (which for Shino they were), that they must be intending to date Shino. However, Shino was wrong in assuming that intimacy = romantic for her previous crush. This is where the heteronormative society comes into play.

If Shino was het in a typical heteronormative Japanese environment, this setup wouldn't work at all. Her previous crush wouldn't really be able to hide behind a heteronormative shield of platonic affection. It would shift from Shino being someone who is struggling (and in some cases being deceived) to find the line between platonic affection and romantic attraction to something like someone who is being flirted with without intention of a real relationship and now wary of casual flirts. Because keep in mind that heteronormativity goes both ways: heterosexual people are also affected by the expectations created by heteronormativity. The tone and premise of the story would dramatically distort.

Finally, maybe it's a bit nitpicky, but I slightly object to how you phrased the last couple sentences in the post I quoted above. Shino and Sara have slightly different interpretations of events. Shino interprets the act as romantic, but the intention as platonic (partly due to her past experiences, but more on that in a little bit). Sara interprets the act as platonic, but the intention as romantic, as paradoxical as that sounds, let me explain. Sara is using the heteronormativity of her society to her advantage in order to be intimate with Shino without the need to be honest or vulnerable with her (yeah, this is a big character flaw that will hopefully get developed as the story progresses). Her intention is to be romantic and intimate with Shino, and she hopes that it will cultivate romantic intentions within Shino as well, but the only reason she's willing to do these things is that she believes the act can pass as being platonic ("skinship between friends is normal", "we're just friends pretending to be a couple for exclusive food", etc.) If Sara didn't believe that these actions could pass as platonic, then she likely wouldn't have the courage to commit to them in the first place. The only reason she can is because of the cover heteronormativity provides. Again, if this series was het, the implementation would be much more awkward, and the tone would shift dramatically.

Also, you say that Shino "decides that she must have been wrong", and again this might be a bit of a nitpick, but Shino doesn't just decide that she's wrong, she's explicitly told so by Sara herself. And the reason she's able to accept it so readily is partly because of her heteronormative society, as well as her past experiences. Without those elements, it wouldn't make as much sense for her to relent so easily. Still, what she's told about these actions, and how she feels about them (and she's hyperaware of how she feels) are in direct contrast, which is the main tension point of the story.

Anyways, sorry, I know that's a lot. I hope I didn't come off as aggressive or accusatory. I just found this really interesting to discuss our differing points of view on the story. Hopefully you do as well

 

[Lunkli]

I see, what I'm getting from you after reading through all of your comments—and correct me if I'm wrong—is that you feel like Shino's sexual repression should be on a deeper level in a heteronormative society. You believe that heteronormativity should be instinctual for her, and homoromanticism should be something something that she needs to rationalize toward. [...]

No, that's not it. Like I mentioned in my replies to the other user, (#53) I'm not talking about repression or compulsory heterosexuality at all. It's exclusively about how she interprets Sara's actions. I think that most of what I could say to you now would be the same as what I said in that comment, so I recommend reading that if you haven't already.

The problem I have isn't that Shino sees Sara's interactions with her through a romantic lens and develops a crush on her because of it, but rather that her initial, instinctive thought is always "Shino is flirting with me!" She's making an assumption about Shino and her intentions that don't really makes sense in this setting. Even if a girl is 100% a lesbian and 100% confident in that, she's still not usually going to assume that every girl that touches her is also a lesbian, right?

Like, you can imagine a boy assuming that every girl that touches him is into him, (even if he's almost certainly wrong) but a girl making the same assumption about other girls just feels a bit odd, you know? That's why I think that this feels like it was originally written as het.

Also, regarding this, in case it wasn't clear, in the hypothetical "het version" I'm imagining, Shino is the guy. Which I think is important here due to the fact that men misunderstanding women's intentions as romantic when the woman's feelings were only platonic is, like, a really common thing! So while you mention that Shino's misunderstanding with her old friend wouldn't makes sense in a het context, I don't really agree with that, because it's a scenario that has happened to plenty of people in real life. It's not like the only realistic possibility is that the woman was "casually flirting."

I do think that you have a good point about Sara using heteronormativity as a shield to fall back on, though. I've been focusing a lot on Shino, as she's the perspective character for most of this chapter, so it's something I didn't really consider. While stories like this are typically iterative, and this could be an element introduced after the hypothetical switch to yuri, if the switch really did happen, then it does show that the author put more thought into it than I thought. I'm even tempted to say that giving more depth to Sara's character like this could be the whole reason for it in the first place.

Like, going back to my second paragraph, about how you wouldn't expect a girl to assume that every girl who touches her is a lesbian just because she herself is one, what you would expect would probably be for her to "feel things out," so to speak, in the same way Sara is; Subtly flirting in a way that can be passed off as platonic, if clingy, when necessary.

Anyways, sorry, I know that's a lot. I hope I didn't come off as aggressive or accusatory. I just found this really interesting to discuss our differing points of view on the story. Hopefully you do as well

Don't worry about it! This discussion's helping me articulate what exactly I find odd about the story. I'm still not sure I've got it perfectly down, but I'm lot closer than I was when I wrote my first comment. And I think it's helpful to think these sorts of things through so as to better understand why we interpret these things in these ways.

 

[TheLostLight]

No, that's not it. Like I mentioned in my replies to the other user, (#53) I'm not talking about repression or compulsory heterosexuality at all. It's exclusively about how she interprets Sara's actions. I think that most of what I could say to you now would be the same as what I said in that comment, so I recommend reading that if you haven't already.

I did read that comment beforehand, but I think after this last reply I've refined my understanding of your position a little more.

But the thing is,

The problem I have isn't that Shino sees Sara's interactions with her through a romantic lens and develops a crush on her because of it, but rather that her initial, instinctive thought is always "Shino is flirting with me!" She's making an assumption about Shino and her intentions that don't really makes sense in this setting. Even if a girl is 100% a lesbian and 100% confident in that, she's still not usually going to assume that every girl that touches her is also a lesbian, right?

This never happens once in this chapter. (I think you mixed up Shino and Sara a little bit here but,) Shino never once accuses or suspects Sara of flirting with her or being a lesbian. We only have one example where Shino (presumably) mistook a straight girl for a lesbian, and that was her previous crush from when she was younger. We have next to zero details about what that girl or their relationship was like, other than Shino being shot down in the end. What Shino does say in regard to Sara is that if she keeps it up, Shino will fall in love and start reading too much into their relationship. This is a far cry from, "I think Sara is flirting with me, but if I stop to rationalize, I realize that's not the case." It's more like, "I know (read: think) that Sara isn't flirting with me, but she keeps dipping into what I consider romantic behaviour and it's messing with my emotions." If you can find an example from this chapter that contradicts this, or supports your stance that Shino assumes romantic intentions, I'll concede, but I don't see any reading through it.

You clarifying that you view Shino as the man in this dynamic and the following paragraphs are really enlightening for me on this topic however:

Like, you can imagine a boy assuming that every girl that touches him is into him, (even if he's almost certainly wrong) but a girl making the same assumption about other girls just feels a bit odd, you know? That's why I think that this feels like it was originally written as het.

Also, regarding this, in case it wasn't clear, in the hypothetical "het version" I'm imagining, Shino is the guy. Which I think is important here due to the fact that men misunderstanding women's intentions as romantic when the woman's feelings were only platonic is, like, a really common thing! So while you mention that Shino's misunderstanding with her old friend wouldn't makes sense in a het context, I don't really agree with that, because it's a scenario that has happened to plenty of people in real life. It's not like the only realistic possibility is that the woman was "casually flirting."

Again, to preface what I'm about to say, this chapter never depicts Shino "assuming that every girl that touches [her] is into [her]," we're only shown one instance where she mistakenly believed that she was in a romantic relationship and given no further details on that scenario (more on this in a bit), and another where she is uncomfortable with the level of intimacy being shown in a platonic setting. We're explicitly shown in this second instance that they are indeed physically intimate, at least to a certain degree.

Now, reading your explanation in the quote above, it seems to me less like you think that the story was conceived as het originally, but more that you believe Shino is written like a man. Is that somewhat accurate? Like, would you agree that this setup could also make sense if Shino and Sara were both men? I get the feeling from what you've explained so far that you would find this some degree more likely than them both being women as they are now, or Shino being a woman and Sara a man, but let me know if I'm wrong on that.

If that's the case, then this might come off sounding like a bit of a harsh strawman, but I don't see how your argument doesn't boil down to, "only men misinterpret platonic actions as romantic, and women almost never do," in the end once the fluff is stripped away, which just, isn't true? Like it's a pretty common experience for sapphic women to read too much into their intimacy with their straight friends, or even receive mixed signals from them only to be shot down in the end. For all we know, Shino and her previous crush kissed each other on the lips and told each other they loved one another before the crush ended up telling Shino that they weren't dating. If that sounds like a ridiculous scenario to you, well then you're kind of lucky, because that kind of stuff does happen in reality from time to time. Either way, Shino reading into her intimacy with her close friends and finding herself confused on the line between platonic and romantic acts is not far fetched at all for a young lesbian to experience, and pretty true to life, which is one of the reasons why I haven't been able to see this from your point of view. I think the more/most ridiculous part of this concept is Sara wanting a romantic relationship, but denying her romantic intentions whenever questioned, and believing that Shino "isn't aware of her" rather than confused or straight, but honestly, even that isn't completely unbelievable to me, and is part of the comedy imo.

Anyways, let me know if my response is completely unhinged or off the mark, or if I'm missing something that you were seeing or trying to get at. I respect your opinion; not telling you that you need to change it, but I haven't felt convinced by your reasons or examples you've given. Which is fine; we're free to happily disagree. But I've enjoyed discussing it with you, as I mentioned in my last comment.

 

[TheLostLight]

So while you mention that Shino's misunderstanding with her old friend wouldn't makes sense in a het context, I don't really agree with that, because it's a scenario that has happened to plenty of people in real life. It's not like the only realistic possibility is that the woman was "casually flirting."

Also, as an addendum, you're right to point this out, because I did not explain myself very well here. I didn't mean to imply that it wouldn't make sense in a het context for a man to misinterpret platonic acts as romantic. What I meant was the details/tone wouldn't line up with what we're given. Basically, what I'm getting at is, how would a man/boy get to a point where they mistakenly believe that they are dating a girl, who considers him as just a friend, in a heteronormative setting? I have an extremely hard time imagining this in a het context without invoking casual sex or something along those lines. Otherwise, you would have to change it so that they were just friends, and the boy thought she was interested when she wasn't, and got shot down after confessing. Which is a far cry from what we're given here. So while it's not impossible, the entire tone and context would shift dramatically, at which point it would feel like a completely different story in my opinion. Meanwhile, in a sapphic context, I find it much easier to imagine a few different scenarios in which this could come about, and it feels more natural, as I alluded to in my previous comment. That is what I meant to get at there, but didn't take the time to properly explain.

 

[Ichigo69]

I know it's all related to the chapter and everybody's being quite civil, etc. which is great, but WOW.... Walls of tl;dr
LOL

p.s. Not saying stop or anything, so don't get me wrong, I just had to say smth is all.

 

[Lunkli]

This never happens once in this chapter. (I think you mixed up Shino and Sara a little bit here but,) Shino never once accuses or suspects Sara of flirting with her or being a lesbian. We only have one example where Shino (presumably) mistook a straight girl for a lesbian, and that was her previous crush from when she was younger. We have next to zero details about what that girl or their relationship was like, other than Shino being shot down in the end. What Shino does say in regard to Sara is that if she keeps it up, Shino will fall in love and start reading too much into their relationship. This is a far cry from, "I think Sara is flirting with me, but if I stop to rationalize, I realize that's not the case." It's more like, "I know (read: think) that Sara isn't flirting with me, but she keeps dipping into what I consider romantic behaviour and it's messing with my emotions." If you can find an example from this chapter that contradicts this, or supports your stance that Shino assumes romantic intentions, I'll concede, but I don't see any reading through it. [...]

See, while it's not explicitly brought up that this is the instinctual reaction Shino is having, you can tell that this is what's going on based on both her other reactions and how she conceptualizes her reaction to Sara's actions. You can look at the order in which her thoughts occur. She always starts out flustered and then starts thinking to herself that Sara is being misleading. What you're describing is the other way around: "Sara is being misleading" first, followed by "but I'm still flustered."

Additionally, she refers to her reaction as "misunderstanding." Usually, if you "misunderstand" something, this wouldn't imply that a thought process of "this isn't true, but?!" but rather something more along the lines of "this is true! wait, no it isn't," wouldn't it? The former just wouldn't be described as a "misunderstanding," (maybe something like "conflicted," instead?) and yet that's consistently how Shino describes her reactions.

These two together paint a picture that you can't get just from what is explicitly stated: Shino is flustered, and instinctually and unconsciously thinks "Shino is flirting with me!" She then consciously thinks "Wait, no, I'm misunderstanding! She's not flirting with me!" We know that the former (which we don't see) must be happening due to the details of the latter. (which we do see)

It's like how even if you know that your mouth isn't actually on fire when you eat a jalapeño, it doesn't change the fact of your mind and body's unconscious instinct is that it is. Similarly, even if Shino knows (thinks) that Sara isn't flirting with her, it doesn't change the fact that that's observably her unconscious instinct. This wouldn't be a "misunderstanding" otherwise. It's not about any conscious suspicions or accusations she might have had / made.

[...] Now, reading your explanation in the quote above, it seems to me less like you think that the story was conceived as het originally, but more that you believe Shino is written like a man. Is that somewhat accurate? Like, would you agree that this setup could also make sense if Shino and Sara were both men? I get the feeling from what you've explained so far that you would find this some degree more likely than them both being women as they are now, or Shino being a woman and Sara a man, but let me know if I'm wrong on that. [...]

For this, though, I am absolutely not saying that this would work better if they were both men. I specifically think that this premise, from Shino's perspective, feels like it was written with Shino as a man with Sara as a women. It's specifically being the same sex that causes the problem, not that they're girls specifically. Just like how a lesbian woman wouldn't assume that every woman that touched her was a lesbian, a gay man wouldn't assume that every man that touched him was gay. (And when I say "every woman" or "every man," I don't literally mean that Shino falls in love with anybody, either.)

And the inverse, were Shino a woman and Sara a man, would work as well. The only reason I didn't bring up that specific possibility is because the version where "a man misinterprets his relationship with a woman who only sees him as a friend" is something that happens more often in real life, generally due to the power dynamics between men and women, where the man is usually expected to "take the lead." (And that's not to say that the inverse doesn't happen in real life!)

On that point, though...

Also, as an addendum, you're right to point this out, because I did not explain myself very well here. I didn't mean to imply that it wouldn't make sense in a het context for a man to misinterpret platonic acts as romantic. What I meant was the details/tone wouldn't line up with what we're given. Basically, what I'm getting at is, how would a man/boy get to a point where they mistakenly believe that they are dating a girl, who considers him as just a friend, in a heteronormative setting? [...]

Here, I think you're just flat-out wrong. This really is a thing that happens fairly often, even if it might seem kind of unbelievable. Especially in certain places online, you can find lots of women complaining about this very thing happening. You don't need casual sex or flirting or anything; it is a fact that woman have been hurt by men that mistakenly believed themselves to be in a romantic relationship with them.

It's a scenario that is made possible by the fact that the society we live in presses into peoples minds "if a woman touches a man, she is intentionally flirting with him." (And the inverse, "if a man touches a woman, he is intentionally flirting with her.") The adjacent axioms, "if a woman touches a woman, she is intentionally flirting with him" and "if a man touches a man, he is intentionally flirting with him," do not exist.

It's easy not to notice this difference, because a lot of these things that have been burned into our minds our just incredibly difficult to consciously recognize. I bet you haven't once thought about how silly it is that even an expensive, brand-new, perfectly clean, freshly-ironed tank-top is still considered inherently unprofessional, right? Or that a wrinkly polo is considered slightly more professional than a wrinkly T-shirt?

So it can be easy to consciously think "this scenario is ridiculous!" (because, objectively, it is) if you've never been given the chance to notice such axioms. And with the examples above, reading them objectively like this, you probably are thinking that they're ridiculous, right? But what would you think of someone wearing such a tank-top to a job interview? Would you expect them to get the job?

The fact is that these axioms exist, and if you look in the right places, you can see the manifestations of them. It's just how these things are. They're things you typically only notice when you're at odds with them.

Anyways, it's getting late, and I've mixed up and had to correct Shino and Sara's names several times while writing this, so I'll probably come back to this tomorrow if I have anything else to add.

 

[TheLostLight]

I'll try to keep this response a bit shorter, because I think we're starting to find where we fundamentally disagree, and I don't think it can be resolved through words.

But on this note:

See, while it's not explicitly brought up that this is the instinctual reaction Shino is having...

Shino says, "I'm going to misunderstand," not that she has misunderstood. Almost all of Sara's flirts are preceded by Shino thinking, "She's about to do something misleading again," followed by Shino thinking, "See, I was right!" once she gets verbal confirmation from Sara (which turns out to be a lie). So it's actually explicitly told to us that Shino's initial reaction is to think that Sara is being platonic and casual, which would imply that the reason she needs confirmation is because the interactions are emotionally confusing for her, which is pretty clearly shown through the art and dialogue.

---

As for your other two points, I think it's pretty clear that we simply have irreconcilable views on male behaviour and heteronormative gender roles. Maybe it's cultural, or generational, I'm not sure, but the way you describe men and gender expectations in these posts have no resemblance to the reality that I have experienced in my lifetime.

Where I'm from, men are much more reserved and explicit in their expectations around romantic relationships, whereas women tend to be more aggressive and implicit. I.E. a man will tend to expect a verbal confirmation of the relationship, and expects it to develop slowly over time, whereas women are more comfortable escalating intimacy and relying on subtle signals and flirtations rather than explicit words. Of course, this isn't universal; it's heavily culture dependant, and varies greatly from individual to individual. But, having lived in Japan for some time, and in my experiences with Japanese men and women, I would say this applies to them as well, for the most part. At least, again, in my experience.

I have never once known or heard of any man that believed to be in a romantic relationship with a woman only to find out that they were mistaken. I suppose for you it is common, but I personally have a hard time even imagining how that would happen, given the gender expectations I'm familiar with. I have to imagine it's a cultural divide. Just to be clear, I'm purposely making a distinction between romantic relationships and sexual relationships/contact. Men and women can both be predators, I've dealt with both, though men are likely moreso inclined to be, but I don't want to touch on that right now, and I don't think it's relevant to this manga. I'm strictly talking about romantic expectations and relationships here.

As for a same-sex male pair, I have to admit, if I saw one man clinging to another and being very touchy-feely with him, I would immediately assume they are in a romantic relationship. If I were a man and another man started clinging to me and touching me, I would immediately assume he was interested in me. Where I'm from, men are not physically intimate with each other, except briefly when greeting each other or departing. In the case of Japan, they are an extremely touch-adverse society, so this holds even more true. And it generally holds true for opposite-sex pairs as well. It's rare in Japan for even romantic partners to touch in public. So for platonic opposite-sex pairs it's pretty much unthinkable. You might think that lends more to your point, but I disagree, because then you would be unable to frame Shino as a "clingy (boy?)" who reads too much into platonic gestures, and Sara would have an extremely hard time hiding behind the pretense of platonic gestures. Physical intimacy in Japan is uncommon even between same-sex friends, though it is likely least uncommon between female friends, which is precisely why this concept works. Sara is obviously being flirty while having the bare minimum pretense of denial. She's riding the line, which is why Shino can simultaneously appear to be over-assumptive while also being justifiably confused. In this setting, I think changing the gender dynamics in any way would only lessen the effect, though I still believe the next most likely pair to work would be a male-male pair, but significantly less so than female-female.

TL;DR
Anyways, I said I'd try to keep this one shorter, but I failed. Oops. In conclusion, I can't help but think that you're projecting your own cultural expectations into a culture where they don't apply, which is fine, anyone is bound to do it to some extent, but I think rather than recognizing that, you are instead assuming that the author intended the story to be different from what it was and retconned it, rather than them having a different cultural understanding than you do. This is ultimately why I disagree with your opinion, and I don't see it being reconciled, but I enjoyed the discussion, once again.