Isekai Tensei Reijou, Shuppon Suru - Ch. 7

[DeadToReal]

Not such how old you are, or what kind of background you might have, but my opinion comes from being old enought my grandkids are becoming teenagers. That not being enought, witnessing extended family members self destructing and having to extract their kids from the travesty that is our modern day fostercare system...

So yeah, I think I can properly guess as to what kind of emotional state a child who has been taken into government custody and had a front row seat for their perents self destruction looks like.

I will not belittle your experience, or the experience of your extended family. But I am willing to guess that Rosa's short stint in an isolated cell is nothing compared to what your relatives went through in the foster care system -- which is my point. Rosa has not suffered enough to completely betray her mother like that. Such an experience may make her meek in front of authorities, but I do not think it is enough to make her fuck over the mother that spoiled her with everything she could have ever wish for.

 

[outinthegardener]

Why would Rosa change her target to her mother? From what we've seen here, Rosa was spoiled rotten by her mother and Rosa loved her mother for it. Suddenly having a change of heart and deciding to be a good person, is out of character, given what we've previously seen from her.

Why is it that simply being a young girl almost completely absolves all the pain and suffering Rosa inflicted on someone else? Rosa is not a baby. She many not be an adult, but she is old enough to know that the things she is doing is making another person suffer. In fact, Rosa went out of her way to make Aria suffer. This manga probably won't show it, but this kind of treatment being inflicted for years leaves trauma that lasts for a lifetime. But because she is a little girl, we have to treat her like an innocent person that was forced to torture someone against her will.

It's not that she's suddenly a good person. It's that she was taught that if people are "bad" then it's good to punish them. And as soon as she finds out her mother is a fraudster who got Rosa put in prison, then her mother is "bad" and it's good to punish her. So she rats her out.

And her understanding of what "bad" is has the nuance of a child. I'm referring to Lawrence Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development here. She understands morality as avoiding punishment, or her own self-interest, or law-and-order morality. Given time she may understand morals as part of the Social Contract, or based on Principles.

I am not saying that we should treat Rosa as innocent. I'm saying that as a child, she needs to be corrected without a terminal punishment. It has to be a punishment (or, more gently, 'consequence') that leads her to develop a more advanced understanding of why what she did was wrong. Hopefully, she will never desire to do it again and can integrate into society as a functional adult.

I'll push back on another point you make- that I am suggesting that being young absolves Rosa of all the pain and suffering Aria experienced at Rosa's hands. What I'll challenge you on is that punishing Rosa doesn't absolve the pain and suffering either. Whether Rosa goes to prison forever, or she gets sent to an orphanage, will not change that Aria has already suffered. Nothing can change that Aria has already suffered. It's already history. The only decision is what will lead to the best outcomes in the future.

 

[Illusione-Tempus]

I think some of you guys are reading into it too much honestly.

Rosa is a child. She's lived her whole life thinking that she is an illegitimate child of a noble. She believed that she was not allowed into the household because according to the mom, the previous wife of "her father" didn't want illegitimate blood in their family and she had to live in poverty as a result.

Then when she was able to enter said noble household, she thought she finally got everything that she deserved and that the daughter of the one who made her live in poverty deserves to be punished. Make her taste what she had to go through all these years. She didn't really know between bad or good just yet, all she knew was that Aria had all those things she also deserved and she wanted to have similar things as well. I believe if Rosa's mother didn't feed Rosa with lies, she probably would've felt more like an out-of-place commoner who suddenly found out they're nobility.

Which is why she ended up breaking down when she learnt that all this time her mother lied to her. Suddenly, all that treatment towards Aria made no sense. It's probably why she confessed about what her mother did. She knew it was wrong, but now that she knows Aria's mother wasn't the cause of their suffering, it was not fair to do the same thing to Aria.

 

[Miserys_End]

I will not belittle your experience, or the experience of your extended family. But I am willing to guess that Rosa's short stint in an isolated cell is nothing compared to what your relatives went through in the foster care system -- which is my point. Rosa has not suffered enough to completely betray her mother like that. Such an experience may make her meek in front of authorities, but I do not think it is enough to make her fuck over the mother that spoiled her with everything she could have ever wish for.

......

You are forgetting everything that came before. The stigma of living in poverty, and spending part of her formitive years hungry and tormented by her peers as being ugly daughter of a prostitute.

Meeting her "father" for the first time, being snubbed and then begrudgingly accepted into a new family. The rise in status to nobility and told this child could take it all away from you.

Then realization it's all a farce, that the last five years is a lie and you will now be placed in an orphanage, not for your own actions, but because your mother tried to deceive the person she claimed was your father.

And if she lied about all that, what else is a lie. She is desperately trying to throw anyone and everyone under the bus to save her own skin, how long until you become just another liability. She lied to her, is she next to be thrown away so that mother can excape?

To be fair, most of that wouldn't even touch her forebrain. It would be the admission that her mother lied, not just to the man she claimed was her father, but her, about everything that mattered. And because of that, Rosa will loose everything because of those lies.

 

[Banana_Splits]

Rosa did some horrible things as well, but she's just a kid. hopefully she can turn her life around now that she won't have her horrible mom and non existant dad in her life. but if the Sailor that is her real dad truly did love her mom why isn't he on the table for adopting her or taking her in?

 

[Justking14]

Yep, I believe even more now that Rosa didn’t think that MC could die from that treatment.
And yeah, when you’re a child, it’s so easy to believe you parents’ lies… hence why it’s tricky to held them liable… that’s why more efforts should be poured into rehabilitation and redemption. It’s EXTREMELY rare that it’s too late for them.
And no, simply “throwing them in prison” or in “forced labor” or other punitive “solution” is… well... not the solution. These things only built resentment, and has much more chances to push them to double down or worst, put them into contact with worst criminals or environments that will teach them even more twisted things.

Also… ugh that mother is dumb. “I lied about my child being a noble’s, so I have nothing to do with the crimes done in the noble house while I was there!” … No, dummy. It just means we have ANOTHER crime to pin on you, cause yeah, that lie is a big crime! That’s literally fraud.

Rosa definitely looked shocked when she heard Aria was dead. She definitely didn’t see that coming. She should’ve but she was a dumb kid with an evil mother telling her it was discipline, so I kinda get it.

 

[OSAITUS]

Dude!, a part of me is saying that the little one willingly did all that... but then i think, if she saw everyone doing it while also thinking she was the reason of her bad time before, i could understand the actions

Going to an orphanage is punishment enough though... i kind of want those two to get reunited at some point, slap each other a little bit and then go their separate ways, taking her as some sort of maid or whatever would be bad and have them being all friendly also goes against the MCs own current feelings, might Rosa be like a mark of growth for the MC "i forgive you, not for you but for me" kind of thing

 

[DeadToReal]

It's not that she's suddenly a good person. It's that she was taught that if people are "bad" then it's good to punish them. And as soon as she finds out her mother is a fraudster who got Rosa put in prison, then her mother is "bad" and it's good to punish her. So she rats her out.

Aren't you applying your own morals and values on to someone else? We do not know what Rosa was taught. All we know is that Rosa sadistically enjoyed making a little girl suffer years of abuse and torture after being told the Aria's mother made Rosa suffer.

I am not saying that we should treat Rosa as innocent. I'm saying that as a child, she needs to be corrected without a terminal punishment. It has to be a punishment (or, more gently, 'consequence') that leads her to develop a more advanced understanding of why what she did was wrong. Hopefully, she will never desire to do it again and can integrate into society as a functional adult.

And where did I ever state that Rosa should suffer terminal punishment? I said that Rosa should suffer some punishment for her actions, but no where did I ever state that she should spend the rest of her life in prison, be executed, or suffer trauma from being abused in some way. I stated that I was satisfied with her sort stay in her isolated jail cell, and that I hoped that she would become a better person when she grows up.

I'll push back on another point you make- that I am suggesting that being young absolves Rosa of all the pain and suffering Aria experienced at Rosa's hands. What I'll challenge you on is that punishing Rosa doesn't absolve the pain and suffering either. Whether Rosa goes to prison forever, or she gets sent to an orphanage, will not change that Aria has already suffered. Nothing can change that Aria has already suffered. It's already history. The only decision is what will lead to the best outcomes in the future.

It was more of a general statement to everyone else - and I said almost absolves. You (in this thread), and others (in this and previous chapter threads), have been either advocating that Rosa is too young to be punished (because she is too young to know what she is doing), or that her punishment is so traumatic that she suddenly became a reformed person and turned on her mother that treated her like a princess all this time. Being isolated in a jail cell for a short time will not traumatize a person enough to turn on their own mother. Yet, by advocating that such a short amount of time is traumatizing enough for a sadistic narcissist, it is almost like absolving what she did. Because what Rosa went through in such a short amount of time is nothing compared to what Aria went through.

Am I advocating that Rosa should be tortured, no. But I am saying that Rosa did not endure enough to count as an actual punishment, and she especially did not endure enough to completely betray her own mother like she did.

 

[DeadToReal]

......

You are forgetting everything that came before. The stigma of living in poverty, and spending part of her formitive years hungry and tormented by her peers as being ugly daughter of a prostitute.

Meeting her "father" for the first time, being snubbed and then begrudgingly accepted into a new family. The rise in status to nobility and told this child could take it all away from you.

Then realization it's all a farce, that the last five years is a lie and you will now be placed in an orphanage, not for your own actions, but because your mother tried to deceive the person she claimed was your father.

And if she lied about all that, what else is a lie. She is desperately trying to throw anyone and everyone under the bus to save her own skin, how long until you become just another liability. She lied to her, is she next to be thrown away so that mother can excape?

To be fair, most of that wouldn't even touch her forebrain. It would be the admission that her mother lied, not just to the man she claimed was her father, but her, about everything that mattered. And because of that, Rosa will loose everything because of those lies.

Where does it say that Rosa's mother was a prostitute? We know that she was a commoner living in poverty and that she seduced her way into becoming Adonis's wife.

And even then, what gave Rosa the justification to abuse and torture Aria? While people in poverty are more likely to commit crimes, most poor people are actually decent human beings that are just trying to get by in life. Most people do not go out of their way to abuse and torture someone else.

It is understandable that Rosa would be shocked by the revelation. But that still is not enough to completely thrown her own mother, that basically made her a princess, under the bus.

 

[v.roderick]

and having to extract their kids from the travesty that is our modern day fostercare system...

Dunno where you're from but the foster care system in my country is the reason I'm alive. I get that in places like the US it's a horrific service but as someone who was fostered after being severely abused as a child an cast out to be homeless as a young teen, I doubt I'd be alive without it. I still have a good relationship with my foster father.

 

[outinthegardener]

Aren't you applying your own morals and values on to someone else? We do not know what Rosa was taught. All we know is that Rosa sadistically enjoyed making a little girl suffer years of abuse and torture after being told the Aria's mother made Rosa suffer.

No? I'm saying that Rosa applied what she was taught. And that we do know what she was taught- as you just said, she enjoyed torturing Aria because was told that Aria's mother made Rosa suffer. That's a early stage moral development. "Good thing because it rewards me, bad thing because it punishes me." We're dancing around terms when we actually agree.

And where did I ever state that Rosa should suffer terminal punishment? I said that Rosa should suffer some punishment for her actions, but no where did I ever state that she should spend the rest of her life in prison, be executed, or suffer trauma from being abused in some way. I stated that I was satisfied with her sort stay in her isolated jail cell, and that I hoped that she would become a better person when she grows up.

You didn't, nor did I say you did. I offered a hypothetical example of the logical extreme. I agreed that Rosa should suffer some punishment for her actions, but I stated they should be designed to teach her empathy and higher-level morals, rather than strictly punish her terminally. Punishment for the sake of punishment is cruel, and it leads to recidivism. Again, we're dancing around terms when we actually agree.

It was more of a general statement to everyone else - and I said almost absolves. You (in this thread), and others (in this and previous chapter threads), have been either advocating that Rosa is too young to be punished (because she is too young to know what she is doing), or that her punishment is so traumatic that she suddenly became a reformed person and turned on her mother that treated her like a princess all this time. Being isolated in a jail cell for a short time will not traumatize a person enough to turn on their own mother. Yet, by advocating that such a short amount of time is traumatizing enough for a sadistic narcissist, it is almost like absolving what she did. Because what Rosa went through in such a short amount of time is nothing compared to what Aria went through.

I never said that Rosa is too young to be punished because she is too young to know what she is doing. I said that her punishment should be designed to teach her why what she did was wrong. I think her punishment is not over- she's going to live a humble life in an orphanage, where before she lived a life of excessive wealth.

I did say that her punishment so far was not enough to reform her and make her turn on her mother. I suggested that perhaps her response to the punishment so far is not based on reforming her, but on her applying the same infantile logic of punishment/reward against her mother.

The term you use, "almost resolving," means "not absolving." Which we agree on. But the crux of the disagreement here is whether or not children are fully culpable for the wrongs they commit. I'm saying no, children are more susceptible to their external conditions than adults. Rosa was encouraged to torture Aria because her criminal Mother rewarded her for doing so. Aria was a victim, and so was Rosa. Aria was the worse victim, and now it's Rosa's time to reap her just deserts. From now on Aria is looking at all rewards, and Rosa is looking at all consequences. Give it a few years, and I bet Aria thinks, "I got off easier than Rosa did." Aria just got superpowers!

Am I advocating that Rosa should be tortured, no. But I am saying that Rosa did not endure enough to count as an actual punishment, and she especially did not endure enough to completely betray her own mother like she did.

That's two different questions. Is Rosa's current punishment enough? Rosa is about to live in an orphanage. Not many orphanages receive the funding to provide full meals and an easy life. Compared to her life before, this is worse. That's torture. Being subjected to worse conditions is torture.

Then the second question is, why did Rosa turn on her Mother? Is it because she did or didn't endure enough to betray her? I don't think it's because she spent a night or two in a cell. I suggested that it's the same logic she used to hurt Aria. "Bad people get hurt, so this is good to do." I guess the phrase you use, "did not endure enough to completely betray her own mother" implies that there is a standard where sufficient suffering would justify the betrayal. And I ask you, what is that limit? How would you punish a child who was taught to harm another child by her criminal mother?

Again, I think we're dancing around terms when we mostly agree. You've said Rosa doesn't deserve jail forever, and I agree. Is it a few more more months or years in jail, before she goes to an orphanage?

 

[outinthegardener]

Dunno where you're from but the foster care system in my country is the reason I'm alive. I get that in places like the US it's a horrific service but as someone who was fostered after being severely abused as a child an cast out to be homeless as a young teen, I doubt I'd be alive without it. I still have a good relationship with my foster father.

That's rad. But yeah, foster care in the USA is barely a tick above human trafficking. A lot of foster kids in the US enter the system because crimes are treated worse if you are A) Racialized or B) Poor. Tons of kids are stolen from their parents because their parents are poor, or nonWhite. They enter the foster system, get mediocre or criminal foster parents, and then end up poor and traumatized in the end. And those kids are more susceptible to crime. The cycle perpetuates.

USA is a third world country, unless you're a sitcom family.

 

[Miserys_End]

Dunno where you're from but the foster care system in my country is the reason I'm alive. I get that in places like the US it's a horrific service but as someone who was fostered after being severely abused as a child an cast out to be homeless as a young teen, I doubt I'd be alive without it. I still have a good relationship with my foster father.

The worst offenses that i can remember were a cousin that was sodomized by his caretaker in trade for drugs. He was under the duds custody for around two years as well...

Another is some nephews were physically abused in the short time they were in the system for being unruly. Don't get me wrong, I'm from the older generation where spanking was common, but you don't break skin for minor disobedience.

And that's just from the system side. While I never hosted children in my own home, others in the family have. And let's just say both the homes they came from and the interim facilities they were put thrue before coming to us were rather lacking in professionalism and competency.

So while I can truely say it's good to hear there are other proper guardians willing to take up the challenge of helping foster children, it doesn't mean there are equally inadequate places run by assholes and or criminally irresponsible fuckwits.

 

[Claresilver47]

I don't get the arguments about Rosa's actions and sudden turn on her mother. She's less than 12 years old. She's a literal child. She just found out that everything she was told she deserved was a lie and that this all came from the person she loved and trusted more than anything.

Her telling about her mother being the one to personally use the whip is her unleashing that small bit of childish guilt of seeing something wrong but not being able to lift a finger about it because of how much she loves and trusts her mother. She didn't have the emotional maturity to self delude herself into thinking that maybe they deserved to suffer like that yet. When it was happening, she just told herself that surely mother wouldn't do something that would be bad and that they were wrong.

And then she found out that everything that her mother told her about her father and place in the world was a lie.

So yes she's going to think about the thing that she understood was wrong, with the revelation that her mother was a liar, that what mother did was in fact wrong. She'll cry her eyes out after this and will desperately need guidance from other adults but the poor girl is going to have trust issues that might border on paranoia

 

[DeadToReal]

No? I'm saying that Rosa applied what she was taught. And that we do know what she was taught- as you just said, she enjoyed torturing Aria because was told that Aria's mother made Rosa suffer. That's a early stage moral development. "Good thing because it rewards me, bad thing because it punishes me." We're dancing around terms when we actually agree.

Blaming someone's mother for a precieved injustice and torturing an innocent girl are two different things. You can resent someone related to the alleged perpetrator, but torturing someone else that did nothing to you is something else entirely - you actually have to be really into it. Rosa is a horrible person, but because she is still a child, she is can still be reformed.

You didn't, nor did I say you did. I offered a hypothetical example of the logical extreme. I agreed that Rosa should suffer some punishment for her actions, but I stated they should be designed to teach her empathy and higher-level morals, rather than strictly punish her terminally. Punishment for the sake of punishment is cruel, and it leads to recidivism. Again, we're dancing around terms when we actually agree.

Teaching her morals is the job of the orphanage. Prison/jail/detention centers are for punishments. And from what was revealed in the next chapter, a few days is not really punishment at all -- let alone punishment enough for her to throw her mother under the bus.

I never said that Rosa is too young to be punished because she is too young to know what she is doing. I said that her punishment should be designed to teach her why what she did was wrong. I think her punishment is not over- she's going to live a humble life in an orphanage, where before she lived a life of excessive wealth.

I did say that her punishment so far was not enough to reform her and make her turn on her mother. I suggested that perhaps her response to the punishment so far is not based on reforming her, but on her applying the same infantile logic of punishment/reward against her mother.

The term you use, "almost resolving," means "not absolving." Which we agree on. But the crux of the disagreement here is whether or not children are fully culpable for the wrongs they commit. I'm saying no, children are more susceptible to their external conditions than adults. Rosa was encouraged to torture Aria because her criminal Mother rewarded her for doing so. Aria was a victim, and so was Rosa. Aria was the worse victim, and now it's Rosa's time to reap her just deserts. From now on Aria is looking at all rewards, and Rosa is looking at all consequences. Give it a few years, and I bet Aria thinks, "I got off easier than Rosa did." Aria just got superpowers!

You can not teach anyone anything in such a short amount of time. And besides, prisons are not designed for teaching anyone anything; they are for punishments. And while I do agree that Rosa going to an orphanage will be punishment unto itself, I believe that she needs a hard punishment so that she actually suffers the consequences for what she did. Spending literally "a few days" in an isolated cell is just that. It's not like she was being tortured or anything. She was just spending some time out.

That's two different questions. Is Rosa's current punishment enough? Rosa is about to live in an orphanage. Not many orphanages receive the funding to provide full meals and an easy life. Compared to her life before, this is worse. That's torture. Being subjected to worse conditions is torture.

I am claiming that Rosa's current punishment is not enough for her to throw the mother that spoiled her rotten and practically made her into a princess -- under the bus.

The next chapter is out and I am ready to move on. Lets just agree to disagree and end this discussion already.

 

[DeadToReal]

I don't get the arguments about Rosa's actions and sudden turn on her mother. She's less than 12 years old. She's a literal child. She just found out that everything she was told she deserved was a lie and that this all came from the person she loved and trusted more than anything.

Her telling about her mother being the one to personally use the whip is her unleashing that small bit of childish guilt of seeing something wrong but not being able to lift a finger about it because of how much she loves and trusts her mother. She didn't have the emotional maturity to self delude herself into thinking that maybe they deserved to suffer like that yet. When it was happening, she just told herself that surely mother wouldn't do something that would be bad and that they were wrong.

And then she found out that everything that her mother told her about her father and place in the world was a lie.

So yes she's going to think about the thing that she understood was wrong, with the revelation that her mother was a liar, that what mother did was in fact wrong. She'll cry her eyes out after this and will desperately need guidance from other adults but the poor girl is going to have trust issues that might border on paranoia

But the crux is that even if it was all based on a lie, Rosa's mother still gave her everything she ever dreamed of. Rosa was spoiled rotten to the point that she was basically the queen of her own house.

For Rosa to go from being on the top of the world, to throwing that very same mother under the bus, just because she lied about Aria's mother, is simply jarring for me.

 

[Claresilver47]

But the crux is that even if it was all based on a lie, Rosa's mother still gave her everything she ever dreamed of. Rosa was spoiled rotten to the point that she was basically the queen of her own house.

For Rosa to go from being on the top of the world, to throwing that very same mother under the bus, just because she lied about Aria's mother, is simply jarring for me.

It's not throwing her under the bus, it's her admitting something she always understood was wrong but because she trusted her mother so much just accepted that maybe that feeling is wrong and that mother is right. It's a child logic where they look at the adults in their life and learn and follow their examples and just accept things because surely the adults they trust know better.

You don't start questioning this stuff really until you're a pre-teen

 

[DeadToReal]

It's not throwing her under the bus, it's her admitting something she always understood was wrong but because she trusted her mother so much just accepted that maybe that feeling is wrong and that mother is right. It's a child logic where they look at the adults in their life and learn and follow their examples.

If it was all about venting, then why did she go out of her way to reveal that her mother whipped Aria until she was bloody?

Rosa has every right to be angry and complain to her mother about lying to her, but helping the investigator pile on new charges is something else entirely.

Anyways, I have already said what I needed to say in my many responses here. I don't feel like beating a dead horse any longer. If you don't agree with what I am saying, then lets just agree to disagree.

 

[14Darius28]

I think this is a cop-out.

While it is completely understandable (and expected) for Rosa to be shocked that her mother lied to her all this time, her suddenly turning on her mother and admitting everything is just to convenient and unrealistic for me. Even if she was lied to by her mother, this does not change the fact that Rosa was still a really horrible person that at the very least contributed to the torture of an innocent and helpless little girl. Rosa was a selfish narcissist that enjoyed the suffering that was inflicted on Aria. For her to suddenly turn and help investigators looking for Aria is just too much a change, given the short amount of time since she was arrested.

And since I know that people will point out my comments on the previous chapter, I said that Rosa should spend some time in prison -- not spend the rest of her life in prison. And since this chapter implies Rosa did indeed spend a short period of time locked in a jail cell, before being sent off to an orphanage, I have no complaints about her treatment. Hopefully, Rosa grows up to be a better person later on.

Not really a cop out. She's not betraying her mother out of the goodness of her heart but because she realized her effort was pointlessly wasted. Her whole emotion regarding mc was oh I got to make sure dad likes me the most. Her dad isn't Adonis so her trying to appeal to him is a wasted effort. Her being cruel to her little sister wasted effort. Her constant effort to be greater then adonis real daughter completely wasted effort. That lie to her makes her feel like a fool. She's a child who knows how it feels to be made fun of. She has pride and being made a fool of thanks to her mothers lie was enough to flip the table over.

 

[OWMWO]

"I came here to laugh on you."