Maou no Musume wa Yuusha to Seiryaku Kekkon Shitai - Vol. 1 Ch. 4 - Tea Party

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Whatever you say man, you can't even focus on the topic being talked about and straight up attack the person you're arguing with.
lol, if you were capable of reading your own posts you would understand my replies. But sure, you can continue with your "I know you are, but what am I?" argument. It definitely works and you definitely aren't a whipped and impotent slave only able to seethe in silence irl
 
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Yeah, dehumanizing bigotry sucks no matter where it's coming from and an endless cycle of retaliatory violence isn't the answer. I don't disagree that that's human nature, either.

BUT. Unless the story so far is lying to us, the hero's kills have been in service of defending against an invading enemy that is explicitly genocidal, killing all humans in the territory it takes. Including everyone the hero knew.

Killings done in furtherance of and in defense against genocide are absolutely NOT morally equivalent.

On balance, the hero comes out morally ahead of the demon king's daughter for me, at least so far. He may hate demons, and hate her specifically for the lives she's taken as both personal combatant AND commander, but he's still willing to set that all aside in the name of ending the killings.

The demon king's daughter, on the other hand, has shown no regret for her role in the invasion or any hint at an excuse for (presumably) enthusiastically participating in it. She's shown no indication that she believes human or demon lives have any value. Her only shown motive is an entirely selfish one: She's willing to stop the conflict so that she can marry the hero, whom she loves.

He cares about peace and preserving lives more than he does about revenge.
She cares about pursuing her love more than she does about either peace or war, humans or demons.

She doesn't get a pass just because she's cute and clumsy and getting worked over by a bitch of a princess.

She'll get a pass for reasons yet to be revealed, I'm sure, when her history's explained away and she's revealed not to be a murderous monster or leader of an army that takes no prisoners. Because otherwise she'd be irredeemable.

I know you're getting out in front of the expected twists, but given what we see, let's not "both sides" genocide.
I think that you're making too many assumptions in this argument. It is never stated that demons were attempting genocide, firstly. All that was stated was that the Demon Kingdom attacked the human kingdom, starting a war. If that's the same as attempted genocide, then literally every single war in history is attempted genocide. It's also not stated that the human's force was entirely defensive.

Further, you're trying to make a distinction between the Schmertz's and Liselotte's desires for peace being selfless and selfish, respectively, but that's kind of a bullshit comparison, you know? Like, yes, Liselotte's reason for wanting peace is because she loves Schmertz, but ultimately her end goal and Schmertz's end goal are both "peace." You're saying that Schmertz wants peace because he "cares about peace," but isn't that kind of cyclical? Liselotte also cares about peace. It's just that her reason for doing that is because she loves a human.

We don't really know why Schmertz cares about peace, (at the moment it seems like he just doesn't want humans to die, but even that seems kind of weak) but whatever that reason is, that is what should be compared to Liselotte's desire to marry him, not just the fact that he cares about peace. Because, again, they both care about peace.

And if you're going to talk about moral superiority, then I'd actually say that Liselotte is the one with the upper hand there! She wants peace because she wants her people to have positive relations with the human kingdom, while Schmertz seemingly only wants peace because he doesn't want his own people to die. He does not care about demons at all, and is not making any effort to actually establish any sort of positive relations between the two. If humans aren't dying, that's good enough for him! Is that really morally superior to a demon that wants peace because she believes in love between the two races?

Anyways, back to the topic of genocide. If anything, the humans seem to be more tending towards that direction than the demons. We've seen time and time again that the humans do not think of the demons as people, and do not seen any value in their lives. And dehumanization is quite famously one of the most significant steps leading to genocide. (Not that I'm actually trying to say that the humans were attempting a genocide of the demons, of course.)

We have not seen this same perspective in reverse from the demon's side; we haven't seen any instances of demons treating humans as less than people as of yet.

Regardless, though, while this story is told from the perspective of a demon, the fact of it being set in the human kingdom means that we have an extremely biased perspective on the relation between the two races. This isn't even an unreliable narrator where the story is "lying to us," as the perspective we have is literally entirely from biased individual humans. And, believe it or not, in fiction, it's totally normal for characters to be biased. That's not dishonest on the author's part, and its definitely not the story "lying."
 
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lol, if you were capable of reading your own posts you would understand my replies. But sure, you can continue with your "I know you are, but what am I?" argument. It definitely works and you definitely aren't a whipped and impotent slave only able to seethe in silence irl
Literal retard, bruh, I keep asking you to explain the point you're trying to make and you keep derailing the conversation to pointless topic, when did I allude to "I know what you are but what I am?" are you genuinely lacking so much in mental capacity, you're fighting ghosts? And, again with the slave stuff, lmao, are you sure you're not projecting? Can't even come up with proper insults.
 
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This manga is pure ragebait bruh, im still waiting for anything at all to go the girls way atp
 
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Literal retard, bruh, I keep asking you to explain the point you're trying to make and you keep derailing the conversation to pointless topic, when did I allude to "I know what you are but what I am?" are you genuinely lacking so much in mental capacity, you're fighting ghosts? And, again with the slave stuff, lmao, are you sure you're not projecting? Can't even come up with proper insults.
I've already explained it as simple as possible in my initial posts, you're just too much of a midwit to to understand it and you keep doubling down on your retardation
I feel bad for you, it seems your parents didn't give you enough attention and now you're trying mask your inefficiencies and lack of mental capability as you can't even give me an explanation about why you need to lay low on trying to get revenge on a killing machine, instead just resort to senseless insult, you also give more the feel of someone who actually got bullied and instead try to imagine yourself fighting your bullies, but sadly, didn't pan out the way your imagining it, so you had to go online to feel some sense of self satisfaction by arguing with other people. Try thinking next time, maybe it'll help your argument a bit.
Padding like you're trying to hit a middle school essay word count but it doesn't change the fact that this boils down to "I know you are but what am I", and that's why you're a good little bullying victim :)
 
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You're both idiots with dumb arguments, now kiss.




Anyway this is a pretty neat manga so far, I can understand both sides here, the humans really can't trust demons and any misstep will be seen as an aggression, and Liese's nature makes it a bit difficult for her sometimes to control things properly, plus her past as an elite member of the demon army makes it difficult for any human to see beyond that. Makes sense to me.

Personally, as safe and kinda hands-offish as it may be for a plot twist, I think she never actually killed humans herself, but rumors about her spread because, again, elite general yadda yadda. Her undead spirits could easily be justified as being lost souls killed by other demons who were unable/unwilling to pass on because of spiteful feelings.
 
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I think that you're making too many assumptions in this argument. It is never stated that demons were attempting genocide, firstly. All that was stated was that the Demon Kingdom attacked the human kingdom, starting a war. If that's the same as attempted genocide, then literally every single war in history is attempted genocide. It's also not stated that the human's force was entirely defensive.

Further, you're trying to make a distinction between the Schmertz's and Liselotte's desires for peace being selfless and selfish, respectively, but that's kind of a bullshit comparison, you know? Like, yes, Liselotte's reason for wanting peace is because she loves Schmertz, but ultimately her end goal and Schmertz's end goal are both "peace." You're saying that Schmertz wants peace because he "cares about peace," but isn't that kind of cyclical? Liselotte also cares about peace. It's just that her reason for doing that is because she loves a human.

We don't really know why Schmertz cares about peace, (at the moment it seems like he just doesn't want humans to die, but even that seems kind of weak) but whatever that reason is, that is what should be compared to Liselotte's desire to marry him, not just the fact that he cares about peace. Because, again, they both care about peace.

And if you're going to talk about moral superiority, then I'd actually say that Liselotte is the one with the upper hand there! She wants peace because she wants her people to have positive relations with the human kingdom, while Schmertz seemingly only wants peace because he doesn't want his own people to die. He does not care about demons at all, and is not making any effort to actually establish any sort of positive relations between the two. If humans aren't dying, that's good enough for him! Is that really morally superior to a demon that wants peace because she believes in love between the two races?

Anyways, back to the topic of genocide. If anything, the humans seem to be more tending towards that direction than the demons. We've seen time and time again that the humans do not think of the demons as people, and do not seen any value in their lives. And dehumanization is quite famously one of the most significant steps leading to genocide. (Not that I'm actually trying to say that the humans were attempting a genocide of the demons, of course.)

We have not seen this same perspective in reverse from the demon's side; we haven't seen any instances of demons treating humans as less than people as of yet.

Regardless, though, while this story is told from the perspective of a demon, the fact of it being set in the human kingdom means that we have an extremely biased perspective on the relation between the two races. This isn't even an unreliable narrator where the story is "lying to us," as the perspective we have is literally entirely from biased individual humans. And, believe it or not, in fiction, it's totally normal for characters to be biased. That's not dishonest on the author's part, and its definitely not the story "lying."
Yes, any "war" without rules of engagement or equivalent norms is intrinsically genocidal. The demons are not shown to be discriminating in their choice of targets at all. I'm sure the women and children in the orphanage really had it coming.

People don't need a "reason" to want peace. The fact that the demon princess has ulterior motives that are apparently more important is itself what makes her disappointing. Once she's revealed to care about peace for it's own sake, they'll be fine.
 
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Yes, any "war" without rules of engagement or equivalent norms is intrinsically genocidal. The demons are not shown to be discriminating in their choice of targets at all. I'm sure the women and children in the orphanage really had it coming.
Again, you're making assumptions. It was never stated that the demons were attacking the humans without focus or purpose. The idea that they might have been is sort of suggested by the way the humans are talking, sure, but that's really easily explainable as a result of the bias and demonization that they seem to have towards demons.

And the "evidence" you have for the demons being indiscriminate are all extremely biased views from the human side. Like, for the orphanage, all we see is the aftermath. We do not know why the demons attacked them, but you can't just assume that that means there wasn't a reason that it happened. And the opening narration, we again do not know why the demons attacked, so again, you cannot just assume that means there wasn't a reason it happened.

Besides, as horrible as it is, total war is not "intrinsically genocidal." The fact that civilians are targeted and attacked is not a reason to say that the demons were attempting genocide. I don't know why you're trying to claim it is. So even if the demons were attacking indiscriminately, (which we have no evidence for or against) calling them genocidal is still nonsense. (And I don't know why you're so stuck up on this term!)

People don't need a "reason" to want peace. The fact that the demon princess has ulterior motives that are apparently more important is itself what makes her disappointing. Once she's revealed to care about peace for it's own sake, they'll be fine.
This is just ridiculous, though. People have reasons for everything, and its insane to try and demonize someone for having motivations for their beliefs while simultaneously denying the motivations of another so that you can paint them as morally superior. You do not "need" a reason to want peace because its literally impossible not to have one. This is fundamental to how people work.

And as far as we know right now, his reason for wanting peace is that he doesn't want humans to die. But that's inconvenient for your argument, isn't it? Because that's clearly morally inferior to wanting peace because you believe in love between the two races. So you'll just ignore that and pretend that he has no reason for his actions and beliefs and is just a machine that marches towards peace for peace's sake.

If in some later chapter, Schmertz opens up to Liselotte and says something like "oh yeah, my orphanage was targeted in the war, so I decided to end the war so that nothing like that ever happens again" are you going to start cursing him out for having "ulterior motives" to wanting peace?

Like, yes, it would be nice if people were just machines that were only capable of carrying out pure moral righteousness. But that is not how people work. We're not machines, so everything we care about, we have a reason to care about. Things that happen to us influence our values and guide our decisions.

It's silly to demonize this.
 
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It's silly to demonize this.
They're literal demons. And that's racist. :pout:
Please don't actually be upset, I'm just teasing. We're talking about the backstory of a supremely mid fantasy romcom. Let's see if any of it matters in 10 chapters.
 
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Anyway this is a pretty neat manga so far, I can understand both sides here, the humans really can't trust demons and any misstep will be seen as an aggression, and Liese's nature makes it a bit difficult for her sometimes to control things properly, plus her past as an elite member of the demon army makes it difficult for any human to see beyond that. Makes sense to me.

Personally, as safe and kinda hands-offish as it may be for a plot twist, I think she never actually killed humans herself, but rumors about her spread because, again, elite general yadda yadda. Her undead spirits could easily be justified as being lost souls killed by other demons who were unable/unwilling to pass on because of spiteful feelings.
See, this is why I enjoy reading manga for what it is, not for what I "think" it should be. Author's story may be flawed in some way, but that's human nature, we're never gonna have a perfect story so why bother patching lol. Just sit back, enjoy seeing the princess getting her ass kicked and cheer for the lil' demon princess, much more relaxing in my book.
 
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this the kind of development that makes me put a series on the backburner lol Hero better rally behind his wife, or his "change of heart" hes starting to have was just for show.
 
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It's hard for me to enjoy this serie. While the demon princess is cute, the plot is too serious for comedy to hit. It's missing silliness to make it work. Also, the hero has like zero personnality and there's zero chemistry in their relationship. Even if their relationship moves forward to make them look like a couple, it would feel fake and empty.
 
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Huh???? I honestly don’t understand the plot anymore. Now Celestina suddenly feels like the villain of this story. I can already guess the trope for the next few chapters: humans will probably turn out to be the bad side, while the demons are actually the good side :haa: Schmerz also didn’t do anything at all. If anything, he looks more like he’s siding with Celestina than with Lieselotte.

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thank you for translation
mrbeans reaction is how i feel too
 
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That hero needs a pair of new eyes. Or maybe he needs them removed, not like they're doing him any good :)
 

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