@PanicTears I love the bit at the end of his comment like "I have nothing against them except how they project themselves onto these characters". He has nothing against trans people except that they're enjoying the same manga he is and commenting about it lol. Might as well have said "I have nothing against trans people, but I don't want to see their comments"
I wonder why trans people might be protecting ourselves onto a gender swapped character who not only accepted their situation quickly but seem to be enjoying it 🤔 hmmm. Nope, I can't possibly think of any reason for trans people to flock to manga abstractly mirroring their own experiences.
@Hexxy That's because to people like him, transsexuality is either a fetish or a punchline. So long as it's about tugging it to Mai Natsume or Astolfo or whatever they're cool with it, but the moment they're faced with the reality that some male-at-birth folks genuinely want this for themselves they get defensive and hostile.
@Hexxy because the situation presented in gb has nothing to do with the realities of transgender life. And let's be real, if gb was possible and reversible a strong 80% of men would got through with it. Even if it wasn't reversible I'd imagine it'd still be about 30%.
@reu it isn't about the situation but the thematic elements which trans people relate to. Obviously nobody in real life is waking up as another gender one day, but if you look beyond the surface level fantastical premise, you'll start to understand.
GB stories often offer protagonists who either secretly or not-so-secretly, consciously or unconsciously, wanted their situation to happen, which is just a roundabout way of telling a story about a transgender character. Other times they showcase the kind of troubles people experience through things like gender dysphoria if the protag did not want their situation to happen to them.
Most times the main theme of the story is that regardless of who the character is, they're still the same person inside, or the theme may be that the character in question feels free as they're no longer constrained to societal expectations of performing particular gender roles.
These stories, no matter how basic they may seem to you, are nuanced often in ways that trans people can find something to relate to. The idea of defying the prison of gender is appealing, even if the cause is fantastical. But fantasy is often a stand-in for real world social issues (like how The Hobbit is actually about World War 1).
@reu Insert John Cena here: "Are you sure about that?"
It's easy to think so, if in particular your own heart has been yearning to cross over. "I'm a normal guy and I want this, so this must be something guys want!" . I think if it was true that most guys wanted this, the world would already resemble a very different place than it is right now.
In any case, I can say for sure Mememori is definitely not acting like a typical guy would in that situation. In fact, that was a common criticism of the pre-serialization if I recall? That it quickly became just a vanilla rom-com with almost no GB flavor left.
@Hexxy I agree 100% with the first paragraph. I can't agree with a word past that.
Gb manga are about SEX, even if it's localized as GENDER. MCs are born again with a different SEX, and in the end, ALWAYS stick with their ASSIGNED GENDER - At first they were MALE and see themselves as MEN. In the end they're FEMALE and see themselves as WOMEN. And, if given the choice to BECOME TRANS and refuse their new assigned gender, they always stick with being what they are. At no point in this change do they transition.
At most I can give you that sometimes, in the initial confusion, they could be considered ftm trans(not in this one in particular, she readily accepts that she's now female) and that some GB mangas focus on this period of uncertainty, after that they stick with their biological sex.
MCs don't have to come out an take the steps themselves, nor with for seen as freaks for that, they don't have to live with being infertile, they are victims of their circumstances and always have a built in support group. They are treated and accepted as women because they ARE FEMALE and for all effects and purposes, it's as if they always have been.
I honestly can't understand how a trans person could relate with and project onto someone in this situation. I can see how and why one would try to self insert, but that's independent from being trans or not.
@MidnighTea just ask your male friends "would you if you could for a day".
I did, I got a 100% Ye, even though all of us are with a woman and some are even married.
I could go on to enumerate the reasons why, both conscious and unconscious, but that would certainly lead to me, a married man, being once again ridiculed as a dickless anti-something-or-other cuck incel - So lets not.
@MidnighTea I will ask you, as I asked mine brothers - "Wouldn't you, if you could, become female for a day, even if just to spend all day flicking the bean? I'd do it" - And yes I'm assuming your sex.
@reu Anecdotal evidence and biased samples. To begin with, I'm the sort of person who'd make male friends who don't mind me talking about GB to begin with, so they're probably the sort who'd be more openminded to it. I think we'd need to do completely random samples and do it many times over many cultures. I'm sure the numbers would be wildly different in Japan and Korea than they would be in the USA or Russia, for the sort of cultural reasons I think you're alluding to.
FWIW I'm not here to ridicule you, I'm here to talk about a super cute manga and how it inspires me and hope it inspires you too.
EDIT: To answer your question, I'm trans so I'm probably not a good representative for AMAB people. So of course I'd want to become physically female if I could.
@reu I think you're overthinking this. But you actually did make some pretty good points about it that I can't really argue with, since you're right for the most part.
Even so, the main point is more about why trans people flock to these and see themselves in these characters so much. Sure, a character who is magically changed against their will but becomes comfortable with it eventually might not be the same as what we go through. But I don't know if the closeness to reality of the situation is really the point.
@Deathhappens Always fuck your best friend, that's how good marriages happen.
Especialy if (s)he is now in a woman's body and it's 100% consensual sex in the missionary position for the sole purpose of procreation.
@Hexxy I already got too real for someone having fun reading a cute manga so, though it's euphemistic, i'll just end it with the tldr on my point:
Warped perceptions are always dangerous, it's vital to correct them as they eventually will lead to conflict, external or worse internal. So I strongly believe that it is important for trans people to realise that these manga are not through the lens of a trans character.
edit: Holy shit I spent almost an hour writing this... there goes my night, lol.
@reu Except... nobody is claiming that they are? In most cases, I don't think the author is writing from a trans perspective, no. But just because it's not literally written with a trans perspective in mind doesn't mean it can't be extremely meaningful to them. Death of the Author and all that -- the audience gets to decide what a work means to them. And I think it's okay to point out when things in a manga line up with the trans experience, whether it's intentionally written that way or or not, because we deserve a chance to talk about what about a work is meaningful to us and why. Same as anyone else who has any other experience with a piece of media, whether it's talking about a personally inspirational chapter of One Punch Man or a childhood scarring from watching Akira as a tyke. Trans people aren't different or unique in this regard, aside from certain people very insistently wanting us to shut up and stay out of their sight.
Which, no, I'm not going to do. If Mememori in this chapter or any other chapter says something I find relatable or resonant with my life experiences, I'm going to say as much in the comments. I don't particularly care if she was intentionally written with a trans lens or not.
Of course, I know someone's going to say say something like "well then don't be disappointed later when Mememori betrays your expectations". I can only speak for myself, but c'mon. I know that, anybody sensible would. Doesn't mean I won't still examine or criticize such a happenstance, but it won't be from a sense I've been betrayed because that'd just be childishly self-centered. If the author doesn't expressly say they're writing it from that lens I'm not going to assume they are*. But I still have a right to react to it, positively or negatively from my own lens and life experiences. Same as anyone else here, really, regardless of who they are. (provided it's civil and doesn't break MD's rules of course)
*
With the exception of "KimoOta, Idol Yarutteyo" because holy crap that's an author wish fulfillment fantasy if I ever saw one.
@reu take it easy there friend. I think you are correct in saying that most of the times gender bender tag are mostly associated with physical sex characteristics instead of internal gender identity.
However it is rather easy to understand why quite a lot of trans folks are enjoying these type of scenario, since it provides an experience (no necessarily self-insert) that's just not possible in real life (over night changes, etc etc). Same thing goes with a lot of different type of fiction as well "a what if" scenario, where we are experiencing the situation along side with the character as a spectator. A character doesn't necessarily have to written from a certain perspective in order to be categorized as that character explicitly, just like cooking food, the intention could be making a medium rare steak, but in the end a well done steak came out. We can only narrowing down what/whom the character are by their drives and motivation, since it's difficult without themselves stating what/whom they are explicitly.
At the end of the day, it's still a fictional piece and people can and will narrow down and putting those characters in a box that's labeled differently, some times the box is labeled as cis/trans/queer and all other type of boxes. Some readers will fit characters into one box meanwhile other readers will fit the characters into a different box. I hope at the end of the day regardless what boxes people are shuffling the characters in we can all come out and enjoy all these things together. Cheers and happy reading!
Bonus: Also, I have also asked cis friend of mine if he would be interested in gender bend, he also replied yes, that's more coming from the angle of curiosity rather than the state of permanent being. I would imagine quite a lot of cis people would also say the same as well just out of the perspective of curiosity.
Heyyy no ruining here my man, I think it's awesome you're enjoying it. While I'm definitely a yuri-type person normally, I'm really enjoying the dynamic of this couple. They're both really cute!
