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[DrWhoCares]

@art17
Read my explanation comment, two of my comments back. There's more to it than just "read it or don't read it."
If you're not knowledgeable on how to build a spaceship, don't become NASA's lead engineer.
Do learn how to build a spaceship properly, so that you can aim to become NASA's lead engineer.

By submitting work, you are stating that you believe it is good enough. You believe that this is a finished product.
This is not some git repository. You make fixes only when you made mistakes, not as part of your normal production pipeline.

I won't translate Chinese manhua's because I can't do anything more than copy and paste into google translate and hope my proofreading is sufficient. That isn't good enough. If I don't understand the grammar or the slang, or the culture, or anything else, I will miss key points of information. Not to mention, machine translation may just be completely wrong in some cases.

Once again, if you cannot perform the job to the minimum expected requirements, do not submit work as if you have completed a finished product.

 

[LysandersTreason]

@askun

I haven't said anything here online that I wouldn't also tell someone directly in person. I don't know where you live, but where I am from, we pride ourselves on honesty, even if it's painful.

@DrWhoCares

Your efforts will be greatly appreciated, as I quite like the premise of this manga and hope to be able to actually enjoy it.

@art17

The translation is so bad I have no idea whether I'm actually reading this manga. I have zero confidence this translation is anything remotely similar to what the original author intended to convey. It's not just about grammar. It's about the translation as a whole. I'm a professional proofreader, and I wouldn't even have any idea where to start fixing this pile of shit.

Also, your edgy anger is misplaced, and no one cares about your 4chan personality.

 

[art17]

@DrWhoCares

Well, I agree with you, but there's a fatal flaw on your post, taking your example of a NASA lead engineer, you can't become one if you are not (at least) an engineer, but you can post your opinions about space engineering online, and I (or anyone) can say (with or without reason) that your opinions are shit, but you are entitled to it and (at least I) won't tell you to stop talking about space engineering, it's the same here, the translator is doing this with his/her/its free time, and he thought that translating this manga (or any other) was a good idea, his/her/its english is flawing, and obviously you can give your opinion about this or other translation, but you are no one to ask this or another translator to stop posting because you don't like his/her/it's work because (here is the flaw of your opinion) me, you, or anyone else is NOT PAYING FOR THIS, obviously you can demand a good product if you are paying for it, for example, the officially translated manga that you can buy online or in stores, but in this case, it's just the free work of a fan who wants to translate this for other fans.

You can obviously say that this or other translations are shit, (and I will ask you to translate some to see how you can be a better translator), but don't ask anyone to stop doing whatever they want with their free time.

 

[art17]

@LysandersTreason yes, and I'm a professional translator and a space engineer (if I'm gonna make up stuff, why stopping with one?) what you have to do Mr. Professional Proofreader, is help the scangroups to translate manga, as I said, if you don't like it, don't read it, and you (or anyone who wants to see if the translation conveys what the author wants to say, you have it really easy: go buy the original manga, read the moonrunes and you will surely get what the author wants to convey.

About the edgy persona, you should look at yourself at the mirror, asking people to stop doing what you don't like, again, you can spew your shitty opinions, but you are nobody to tell others to stop translating what they want and how they want.

 

[LysandersTreason]

@art17

I am already lending my services as a proofreader to a scanlation group. And I don't have to invent things. I'm a copy editor for newspapers that reach hundreds of thousands of people daily.

And the reason I say that people shouldn't translate if they can't translate well is that it might prevent someone who can actually do a good job from picking up the series.

 

[art17]

First up, yeah, yeah, you are a pro and I'm a marine, let's pretend that I believe you, if you are helping a scanlation group, congratulations and thanks for contributing (now tell me which group so I can say that you are shit and you should not be helping to scangroups like all of the "F"'s of the comments...).

About your last paragraph, no, you are not making any sense, I've seen series being translated by 2 or 3 scangroups, and gues what? I don't tell the scangroups to stop translating chapters that are already translated to english because, why?, because as I said, I'm not paying them, and I can read their translations if I want or not reading them if I don't, instead of being a dick like most of the ones commenting this. So, your argument is invalid.

 

[banjomarx]

I honestly think google translate could have done a better job of this chapter, as a fellow scanlator i am appalled D:

 

[Zephyrus]

@art17
Calling people literal Nazis because they don't agree with you on something is a violation of Rule 5.1. Consider this your first warning. If it happens again, moderator action will be taken.

Also, I'd like to note that I will take action even if you break the spirit of 5.1, not the letter. Just because you only imply someone is a Nazi or a Fucker instead of outright calling them one doesn't mean you get to escape the consequences of your actions.

For everyone else, please continue to debate in a spirited manner, but always Be Civil.

Thanks,

-Zeph

 

[art17]

@banjomarx yes, that's an opinion, obviously you can criticize this or other translations, but you don't go as far as telling others not to translate it as the others here.

 

[art17]

@Zephyrus first up, no, I'm not calling anyone a nazi for "disagreeing" with me, I'm doing it to those who say that "if you are not doing it like I say, don't do it", if you read my entire post instead of just searching words and calling me out for that, you would see that I will never call nazi anyone for having another point of view, it's the opposite. If you are applying the spirit of 5.1, you call out the ones who are telling the translator of this episode to not translate as if they were part of some authoritarian entity.

 

[Zephyrus]

@art17
The fact of the matter is, you don't need to use that kind of language when debating with someone. I could not care less about the quality of a TL. I'm here to enforce MD's rules.

Putting your work out there for everyone to see and therefore criticize or praise is part of the lot of being a translator. We don't police quality on MD and we don't police how people react to said quality so long as they do not do so while breaking a rule.

 

[DrWhoCares]

On the topic of retranslation:
After taking a look at this, it doesn't seem like it'll take me incredibly long to finish, but I am a busy person with a pretty full schedule already.
I'll see what I can do about busting this out ASAP, but we'll see. Even after I finish translation, I'll need to have someone typeset and such, so my optimistic guess is before next Friday, but don't hold me to that.

Once again, hit me up if you want to help out.

 

[art17]

@Zephyrus again with the generic comment, I'm not talking about the ones criticizing, I'm talking about the ones telling others not to publish their work, if you are not moderating those, you are not doing your job nor applying the spirit of the rule (I'll freely interpret those so I can censor whataver I want).

I don't have more comments for you, I'll just take on account the words you are making a taboo and will not use them, but I will not stop calling out those who tell others not to post their work.

 

[art17]

@DrWhoCares if you are contributing, you are free to do so, and I'll always be grateful for the ones doing so, but if your translation is lacking, of course everyone can praise or criticize your work, but I'll stand up for you and anyone else if they say that you don't have the level of grammar to post your work here or any other page.

 

[DrWhoCares]

@art17
Don't stand up for me if my work is bad.
If my work is bad, tell me. I want to know so I can fix it. Otherwise I wouldn't translate publicly. If I didn't want people to criticize my work, I wouldn't post it publicly, no matter how bad or poorly-constructed the criticism may be.

If I didn't want to be criticized, I would just translate so I can read it, and move on. If I get criticized, it's because there's something wrong. If that's not the case, (for example, if someone was trolling or being non-constructive), then I can just easily ignore that, because who cares.

Once again, this is a job, it's something you have to put work into and put your name on. It's something you put effort forth into and you should always meet the minimum requirements for that. I never asked for them to remove their work, but you must understand that all of the criticisms thus far against it are pretty valid. Even if the comment themselves is worded poorly in the context of constructive criticism.

You can't pamper people, especially people who didn't ask for it. It's fine to defend them, but not once did they ask for it. They may even be ignoring all of these comments entirely, and that's fine, but you can't take up the mantle of defending these people and their work as if it's some sort of human rights violation.

Here's two fun facts about the translation they posted:
- It's missing 5 pages.
- It is using google translate.

Honestly, to me, that's a job that isn't even finished. I'd be pretty upset as a reader to be reading a new chapter, regardless of quality, then have them withhold the ending with no explanation as to why.
There's just four whole pages of dialogue and exposition missing at the end. Completely missing. How do you defend that?

 

[Narf]

@DrWhoCares
Take your time, mate. I'd rather have a job well done than a half-arsed rushed chapter, and we all know RL takes precedence. I'm happy enough that you're making a legible version of this chapter at all, even if it only releases in a while.

@art17
As a studied former translator, who has done translation works both privately for free and as a business in the past, I have all the respect in the world for translators who are putting their work out there. But respect has to go both ways. The translator has to respect the reader as well. Just because you output stuff without being paid doesn't mean that ANY quality is acceptable. There is a certain minimum threshold that one should have before doing work. I don't see such a threshold being reached here. Orthography and grammar are both too lacking, some bubbles and even entire pages have been forgotten completely, some simply make no sense and the choice of font(s) is at least debatable. Even something as basic as writing everything lowercase... somebody who has had their first English lessons could tell you that this isn't right. The rules for upper/lowercase in English are already very simple, and you can easily avoid them completely by just going all uppercase in a font that doesn't look like permament screaming, as most scanlators for manga do.

Somebody else in this thread used volunteer work at a soup kitchen as an example before, I believe. It's a pretty good analogon. If you're not good enough to at least produce something that is without a doubt edible, stay out of the kitchen and practice in private until you can. If you only translate part of the text, and even then only in a quality that makes people question if you are translating it correctly - not just literally, but even just conveying the essence of what is being said - then use a personal blog or just practice in private until you can output a full chapter that is at least above a machine translation in quality. That's just basic decency.

There is no respect for the reader in this chapter. Hell, my selfrespect would prevent me from every putting something like this on a public site. So why should we readers applaud this non-effort?

 

[art17]

Well, first up, it's not a matter of criticism, it's a matter of publish something if you want, and this is not a job, is a hobby, you are not getting paid, and about publishing unfinished work, seeing the Play Store I think they call it "beta version" or MVP (Minimum Viable Product), and sometimes they charge for it. But again, it's not about getting good or bad comments, it's about your right to publish whatever you want, and not only here, I've seen it in podcasts too, some authoritarian users telling that they should not publish their work, why?

If your standards are that you need to publish a finished version, well, let me tell you that in the professional world it's outdated, but it's your opinion and as in this apisode, I can choose to read it or just see the first paragraph and "into the trash it goes", but I will never tell you that you don't have the right to speak your mind.

 

[art17]

@Narf all of the stuff you put in your first paragraph are valid criticism, being a respected translator is good, but as a fellow translator, I've done my best when I had the time to translate, and I've even accepted being bashed, but when I'm finding it hard to take, is when the ones bashing don't contribute to translate manga in any way, but still is an opinion, and you can accept it or discard it, but what I don't accept is that others tell scanlators, fansubbers, podcasters, even app developers that they need to have a minimum standard to publish their work made with their free time, again, you can have an opinion, but you can't say others to adjust to your own standards to publish what they want.

I think this translation has a lot to improve, but telling the translator his flaws and thanking him for the bothering posting this translation (even if he used google translator and took him 2 minutes) is better than being an elitist, given that you are not paying him for translating this, we are readers, yes, but we are not clients.

 

[DrWhoCares]

@Narf
The soup kitchen analogy was mine, which I still think stands even after reading your newest comments @art17 .

There's a minimum standard setup by the community. Similar to social contracts, there's a lot of unspoken, or non-enforced rules which the community inherently understands. Whether or not Mangadex polices quality is not up for debate here, as they don't. Zephryus stated so below. However, that doesn't mean we as a community shouldn't strive for better quality. Imagine if most of the scanlations released were of this quality, I wouldn't come to Mangadex if that was the case. Mangadex themselves would likely have to change their rules and start enforcing quality, or they would let things stay (that all depends on visitors and whether or not they care, this is all speculation keep in mind).

You can applaud the effort, but criticize the product.
However, in this case, it's hard to really tell whether or not the effort is worth applauding. There is a minimum bar in everything where you can clearly say, "They didn't even try."
I, and the others who share these opinions, believe that this work has passed that line. That the quality is so low, it's as if they didn't even try. If the translator got better and fixed things, well that would be great. But the whole point of this debate is that you need to be up to at least the minimum requirements to release a work.

This is not a rule by the Mangadex staff.
This is is a social contract which is implied and followed throughout the community.

If you've ever played Dark Souls games, you'll know about that kind of "implied honor" that comes with dueling. Nothing enforces you to follow it, but it naturally forms through shared community goals. The shared goal in this case is "quality scanlations for everyone".

 

[art17]

@DrWhoCares erm, no, it's not like that, don't use something abstract as "community" to enforce your opinion, when you see a new episode, you see the scan group, you can see if it's good or bad, and if you after reading something you consider bad or awful or appaling, you don't read the publication of that group or user anymore, if your opinion as a community member (you are not the community, nor me) is that for you this scanlator is bad, you are free to ignore his publishing, in my opinion, as another member of the community, it's better having a bad translation than no translation.

And about the soup example, if you are in Salvation army, homeless people have the choice of eating or not that soup, I suspect that the majority prefer having an awful soup than no soup, don't mix professional work with amateur work, and not mix us being readers with being clients.