A better tag for manga with trans characters 2

[junxxy]

https://mangadex.org/thread/11875/a-better-tag-for-manga-with-trans-characters

I have been informed that it'd be best to make a new thread rather then necro that one, so that's what I'm doing.

Let me start of by saying that I do understand the reasons this was rejected last time (lack of volume and broad overlap), but feel that in this case the extra tag would be worth it.

Point 1: this was mentioned by the OP of the last thread, but the current method is stigmatizing, placing realistic depictions of trans people under the 'crossdressing' banner, and drawing a false equivalance between men dressing up and women being themselves. no longer using 'gender bender' is barely an improvement if this is your solution. (please note that drawing these inaccurate comparisons has harmed trans people, especially trans women. I doubt improving a manga site's tagging system will change society much, but that's no reason to maintain a harmful system, even in small ways)

Point 2: there is indeed p broad overlap in these catagories, and given that authors aren't always forthcoming with saying 'this character is trans' even when they are intended to be, I agree that it wouldn't always be an easy catagory to draw the line on. for example, Kanojo ni Naritai Kimi to Boku has a trans main character, but she's not the protagonist, and said protagonist crossdresses, so a cursory reading might suggest 'crossdressing' would be accurate. themathically, though, the story seems much more interested in exploring themes of gender, identity and sexuality then merely playing with outward presentation. even if crossdressing is a feature, it's not really a story about crossdressing.

Point 3: as for volume, I'm aware that there's a small number of manga that could unequivocally be tagged as transgender. however, said number seems to be rising faster with time, and I doubt that's a trend likely to stop. Is there a set number or percentage of manga that must be applicable before a tag is warranted? if so, what is it? and why wait for that arbitrary threshold to be met rather then solve the issues right now, when the current system is harmful?

Point 4: building of the last two, I've also seen an increase of transphobes coming into threads about trans manga, either to argue or just complaining it's some 'gender shit' instead of the uncritical fetishizing content they seemingly came for. a seperate tag wouldn't really stop them from existing (nor the really argumentative ones from arguing), but it would also serve as a warning label (and possibly excludable filter) for them that this content isn't what they're looking for.

By no means do I think implementing this suggestion would shut up the transphobes (also, check rule 5.1.4), but it would at least give them someplace to complain about trans people existing without being laughingstocks that isn't places to discuss specific manga and derailing whole treads. Meanwhile, implementation of this change allows for more accurate searching for specific themes (the last thread mentioned looking for manga with trans characters on a different site, but a large portion of them aren't really about being trans or gender in general at all, so it's not a perfect solution), and most importantly and unforgetably, this change would send a clear message of support to trans people, instead of continuing to ignore the harm being done by the current system.

 

[Plykiya]

>the current method is stigmatizing, placing realistic depictions of trans people under the 'crossdressing' banner, and drawing a false equivalance between men dressing up and women being themselves.

I think you're confused. The thread you linked says that "genderbender" is used with trans manga and that calling trans manga "genderbender" was upsetting. We rectified this by splitting genderbender into crossdressing and genderswap. The current method doesn't stigmatize against trans people at all. Crossdressing only applies when the character themselves think of what they're doing as crossdressing. Stories with characters who are transgender and don't think of what they're doing as crossdressing, don't get marked as crossdressing. The few manga that deal specifically with trans men/women or intersex characters are currently left without a tag due to lack of volume. There was also quite a few manga included in genderbender that were just tomboys being called a boy maybe once or twice in the series, and someone decided that was enough to mark it as genderbender. It was quite an ambiguous tag and for that reason we replaced it with two distinct content tags.

>Is there a set number or percentage of manga that must be applicable before a tag is warranted?

Popular enough and specific enough that it warrants a category. We aren't going to add something as broad as "female protagonist" because it would be way too many results. We aren't going to add something as specific as "bodybuilders" because there's so few manga of it despite me being able to name several off the top of my head.

> I've also seen an increase of transphobes coming into threads about trans manga, either to argue or just complaining it's some 'gender shit' instead of the uncritical fetishizing content they seemingly came for.

You can block users that you believe aren't interested in having a discussion. As you said, implementing a tag for transgender content wouldn't necessarily get rid of them or cause them to stop.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

In my opinion, wait for trans manga to become more mainstream before asking to implement a trans tag again, later in the future. It's inevitable but from the way I see it, it's not here yet.

 

[ashy]

Why tho?
...
It’s just manga genre tags. We already have cross dressing and gender swap tags too. What do transgender people do? They swap genders. I think it fills its role pretty well.

 

[ununseti]

For reference, earlier threads on similar topics:
- #5249: Separate tags for 'crossdressing' and 'gender bender'
- #46585: New features: 2 factor authentication and more genres added
- #46755: Gender Bender, Bring it back, or something similar
- #46811: Should "Transgender" tag be implemented?
- #67285: Discussion of the proper tagging for Futanari content

I still don't really agree with the splitting of gender bender into crossdressing and genderswap; I will maintain that adding gender bender as an umbrella genre tag to supplement the existing crossdressing/genderswap tags would be a good idea. This tag would subsume the rare manga that deal with trans/intersex/etc. themes, so that they're easier to identify.

In my opinion, a gender bender tag:
- isn't offensive; it's just a label for gender-related themes, and unlike "trap", there isn't really anything demeaning or derisive about this term (imo)
- is already used on MyAnimeList, MangaUpdates, AniList, and Kitsu, so the term is already pretty much a mainstream-ish genre; if there is any ambiguity about its exact meaning (wrt tomboys etc.), that can be clarified with more specific guidelines
- would make it so that the more rare themes get at least some tag representation; if trans or intersex don't have enough volume to warrant their own tag, wouldn't merging them into a conveniently existing broader umbrella term be a reasonable compromise? That way anyone who starts a title knows what they're getting into.
- Also, I love the wide gamut of gender bender stories, so it'd make it a tiny bit more convenient for identifying/finding them (*´ч`*).

Someone in that earlier thread pointed out that the gender bender tag typically suggests a focus on the troubles involved or created by the character changing genders, and that kinda works for trans, too.

So I think gender bender is a tag that can be applied fairly consistently and uncontroversially. Applying "crossdressing" to a manga about a trans character is kinda yikes, but I don't think anyone would contest a "gender bender" tag.

On the other hand, tags like "transgender" are rather tricky. Sometimes the line between fetishtic futa and a nuanced take on trans feelings isn't so clear; and so I can see tags like this easily leading to comment flame wars that go off course.

 

[Teasday]

_{@ununseti posted:}

I will maintain that adding gender bender as an umbrella genre tag to supplement the existing crossdressing/genderswap tags would be a good idea. This tag would subsume the rare manga that deal with trans/intersex/etc. themes, so that they're easier to identify.

As far as I'm aware, the problem is that the handful of transgender manga are all that's left over from the split, making re-implementing the Gender Bender tag kind of pointless as it would be more accurately named as Transgender anyway.

I suppose the rest of the leftovers were, as Plykiya described, mistags anyway.

 

[Xzayer]

I don’t think adding a transgender tag will overall assist with the issue you’ve bought up. Currently there is gender bender that is being used as a blanket term.


Not to be misunderstood, as there are manga that specifically talk about issues pertaining to people that identify as transgender/intersex.

But I do feel that if a transgender tag were to be added, then other tags that are not limited to transgender will probably have to be implemented as well. As some manga have stories that overly complicate issues pertaining to how a character may identify themselve.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

I'm curious, why doesn't MD implement a trans tag just so that people can stop complaining? The amount of discussion for a tag is getting ridiculous imo.

 

[Pika]

Just call the new tag "Might trigger someone due to gender"

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@Pika Preach!

I have no problem with people saying their opinions about gender. What I'm triggered about is how triggered people are at a single "he/she" deal and the likes of it.

 

[ItsQuote]

implement a trans tag just so that people can stop complaining

that sets a potentially dangerous precedent: complain loudly enough and you'll get what you want.

 

[Xzayer]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN

Unfortunately these topics will keep appearing because not everyone can be pleased. I don’t want a precedent to be set.

So even if it’s not pertaining to this issue someone will always be “triggered” about something they deem unfair. Remember that other issue in the forum about a certain name.

I just hope is that we don’t get more topics that pertain to identification, religion, or politics. As it will be a ongoing topic.

 

[421cookies]

Does complicated tagging even necessary to begin with?
Maybe just me but, the only time I use tag to search manga is when I'm searching for loli hentai.

 

[Pika]

@421cookies Heh, now that you say it, Mangadex really makes searching loli and other stuff really easy

10/10 would appreciate it more

 

[Xzayer]

So far the current tag system imo is good so far. Especially if your looking for a particular type of manga.