A Returner's Magic Should Be Special - Vol. 3 Ch. 137

[JavelinJoe]

@Elki I am pretty sure it happens everywhere. It may not be broadcasted across the internet, but it does happen. It will happen because it is a deterrent. It may not be effective at reliably obtaining useful information, but it does keep the edge up which can deter some lesser committed criminals with just the rumor that "you could be tortured if...". And I bet that even if it was universally agreed upon to be wrong, every country would still practice it, just in the deepest darkest corner of their country. Because at the end of the day, humans are a cruel species that as long as there is a chance, they will do unspeakable things to each other if they believe the potential outcome is worth it.

Now is it right? No. Is it effective? No, not really. Do people still do it regardless? Definitely. And as per the UN involvement, you would have to first prove it. This alone is extremely difficult to do because in order to do so, you would need to a something which would likely either end with you admitting to espionage, "stumble" upon it somehow, get survivor testimonials, convince someone involved to come out and admit to it, etc. There is just so much of a hassle to do it that most wouldn't either bother or just assume they do it and carry on with their day. It is a sad thing, but it is just how the world is.

 

[captain_crunch]

Mc says they're changing the outcome? Aren't these simulations in a dungeon, not time traveling?

 

[Rin2k]

just penetrate toterina, bro.

 

[Podi125]

@captain_crunch He just means the outcome in this shadow world. As in he can give this simulation a "happy ending." It's just lip service to comfort Pram.

 

[Podi125]

@ZeroR3 Torture is not a very viable method of gaining reliable information. It's pretty inconsistent and there are anti-torture techniques. Just because it has been used for 1000s of years, doesn't mean it is reliable or extremely effective.

 

[blipblopyourdead]

Toterina? more like Thoterina...

Sorry, but someone had to do it

 

[KSHCKLD]

@Podi125 well you are right, but in that situation that was the most viable solution. Also mc probably did it for some personal satisfaction as well

 

[KSHCKLD]

@ZeroR3 torture isn't always viable because the person can simply lie or some cases chose death rather than opening their mouth. We don't have magic spells in real life. So torture is the best bet

 

[Podi125]

@KSHCKLD Oh I agree with you, I was just talking to the dude who was saying that torture is very effective. He didn't have much of a choice there, since he had no leverage on the person. Plus he wanted to make them suffer, so I get it. I was just talking about torture in general and how effective and consistent it is as a method of interrogation.

 

[ZeroR3]

@Podi125 I have a feeling you didn't really read what I wrote. Extreme effectiveness? That's not what I wrote? There is only one point I used again and again, and that is: "No more reliable or more effective method exists". Does it mean torture is extremely effective? Hell no. It means that while it is mediocre since some people can withstand torture or it can give conflicting or just wrong results, no better method of interrogating captured hostile parties was devised yet, and it is EFFECTIVE ENOUGH for it to be useful.
Let's look at alternatives -
Drugging - even less reliable than torture, and actually can count as one.
Blackmail - I would say it is more effective, but less reliable, since blackmail material is needed, like family member or some juicy info which can be impossible to get.
Bribe - won't work on very hostile party, requires willingness from captured and good enough offer. "I won't slaughter you like a pig if you answer my questions" also counts as a bribe😀
Talk-no-jutsu - While possible, yeah, not really happening.

Elki outright denied any effectiveness of torture, which is simply delusional.

 

[Podi125]

@ZeroR3 As I said, I was talking about torture in a general sense. So when you are saying, "no more reliable or more effective method exists," that is simply untrue. Blackmail IS significantly more effective than torture, since the information is significantly more actionable. Plus once you successfully blackmail them, they are a steady stream of information, which makes it more reliable. Torture is a pretty much a one and done deal. You might get a small bit of information, but the person is typically not lucid enough to give in depth details so the information isn't particularly actionable. The chance of them giving you false information is also fairly high, which can be worse than no information if it is taken at face value. They will say anything and everything to get you to stop. So its not reliable or particularly effective. I'm pretty sure Elki was trying to get at the fact that any information you obtain from torture has low validity, making it unusable, generally speaking. The intel you obtain from torture needs to also be verified from other sources, otherwise it's completely inactionable. In some cases it can provide valuable information, but in most others it does not produce results. So its not completely useless, but it's not particularly good either. If you have nothing else, then go for it, but other methods are more effective. It's something you should use when no other options are possible. It's the equivalent of a hail mary in football. You are right, it isn't completely ineffective, but it isn't anywhere close to the most effective or most reliable.

 

[Badwolfe]

Dayumn. It’s easy to forget Desir spent 10 years wading through pools of blood and beating the shit out of motherfuckers. He’s a badass and a half.

 

[Bairus]

This world's crow is that you?

I suspect it's the outsider guy wearing a bone mask.

 

[Szaal]

A talk about how "representation" of torture. Lemme take a bite:

Desir only had 3 days to clear the World's objective. Desir is disgusted with the inhumane experiment done by the kingdom, just like Pram, despite not revealing it on his face. He needs information quick and the only source closest to him is this criminal woman.

I will say that the interrogation with torture is not added tastelessly, or just to make the story "more mature" as someone pointed out above; otherwise, we won't be seeing depiction of inhuman experiment on human subjects in the first place. I would go even further that the decision of adding torture is an understandable, and correct, decision in the scope of storywriting.

The scene is on-theme with the current arc (and the entire story as a whole), it doesn't break the logic nor flow of the in-world lore (we've been shown with mana-circle upgrade before with Romantica, but this time, it is weaponized as torture), and it reveals the character of Desir once more (despite his calm demeanor, he doesn't hesitate to go that far; to not always be chivalrous).

Of course, the alternative is to conjure up "wow magic" and now we can read minds no problem, but that would break the logic of the lore (we have no mind-reading power come up until now). The other is to get friendly, adapt, and mold Toterina so she is willing to be more open with Desir (Stockholm syndrome?), but that method takes time which he doesn't have. Or the gang can go back into the factory-lab and search for physical written records instead, which would put our progress back to square one.

I suppose, the other realistic approach to the scenes would be this: after the gang defeated Toterina, they found a written report that details the homunculi plan. They read this report, then we can continue to the next chapter. The plot is moving forward. No torture needed. However, as you can see, no movement in the character department. We are not shown Desir being cold-blooded and willing to stoop down to the same level as these villains for his goals. We are not shown the gang "acknowledging" this side of him by obeying his request to leave him alone with Toterina. We are missing the development between these characters without the torture scene.

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So this is where I champion the line "we read a story for the characters". If a scene is done to serve the development of its characters, then it is a scene well done. More often than not, scenes are written in such a way we are bored and felt like a slog read. That is because, among many other reasons, there is no character development. We read stories for the drama, for the comedy, the wholesome, and the thrill. If a scene can't provide that, it's no different to reading a lab report.