Azadarake no Classmate ga Shinpai de - Vol. 1 Ch. 13

[Nick86]

Do you mean the R18 fanbox version? I did see that floating around in the dex but I thought that was some sort of a spin off published along with this version and not a "source" material.

I see, thank you for the info.

 

[Hikineet]

Thanks for the chapter.

 

[NECOdes]

if it means you won't go back to that house for tonight, I'll the creepy one

 

[danvolodar]

It is, when the torture is at the behest of a magic tattoo that will only ever torture when you're lying.

And yet it's not mind control, according to you? Nice, nice.

You notice how you've went from "the manga glorifies 'eye for an eye' no matter how ugly" to "they were subjected to cruel and unusual punishment" after I demonstrated that there's absolutely no way you can interpret what happened as eye-for-an-eye?

What happened was absolutely an eye-for-an-eye vengeance: they humiliated him and ruined his reputation, he went out of his way to invent a cruel and unusual way to humiliate them and ruin their reputations. That's taking full vengeance to a T - except, of course, with also going out of his way to be a jerk about it. "Constructive mercy", lol.

They got point blank proof of the crimes committed. Your argument hinges on the lie detecting slave crest not being definitively and demonstrably accurate.

And what says it is? It's nothing more than a torture implement for owners to have more control of their slaves - which Shield oh so mercifully had applied to the ones he did not exact vengeance against, lol.

A misrepresentation that would imply that the queen in fact wanted to have her husband and firstborn executed, even though she clearly did not and in fact counted on the Shield Hero's mercy as an means to not do so.

Given that the queen is the judge, the jury and the executioner in a kangaroo court where no adversarial system is present, no legal defense permitted, results of torture are accepted as evidence, and neither legal codes nor legal precedents are used as basis of the law, royal pardon is traditionally well within the monarch's powers. She was free to do as she wished - instead Shield had her do what he did, and the manga - along with you, lol, - tries to present it as anywhere morally justifiable.

 

[sanctuary]

You know those LN/Mangas with traumatized male MC that's been booming as a genre lately? Well, one of the criticism of that genre is "oh those male MCs are stupid and dumb for turning down any help or interaction from any girls (cuz who knows they might be sincere)"

Here we see the genders flip and now it's "eugh i bet the male is going to be a creep" or "i hope the protag is a girl or a gay guy so that he won't lay hands on her"

I mean, hey, I might be reaching, or reading too much into this or whatever but... it's an "interesting" observation nonetheless.
It's gotta be the boys, amirite boys?

That's why, fellow boys, don't reach out for help. Obliterate yourself inside the void.
lol just kidding, go outside and find some frens

 

[Eighty-six]

What happened was absolutely an eye-for-an-eye vengeance: they humiliated him and ruined his reputation, he went out of his way to invent a cruel and unusual way to humiliate them and ruin their reputations.

What? He didn't commit any of the crimes he was accused of. They committed every crime they were accused of, they committed crimes that didn't even involve him, and the normal punishment for any of them was death.

There is absolutely nothing cruel about the categorically more merciful punishment they did receive. You can't just remove context until you're able to make whatever comparison you want, and expect to be taken seriously.

And what says it is?

Motoyasu, shocked that the queen would go as far as to have a slave crest put on her own daughter Myne (a pathological liar), poses the exact same question in chapter 31 (pages 33 and 34). The queen invites him to take ownership of the crest to see that he's mistaken. He does so, wishing to prove her innocence, and asks Myne if Naofumi tried to rape him. She lies, and gets shocked for it.

That's what says it is.

It's nothing more than a torture implement for owners to have more control of their slaves - which Shield oh so mercifully had applied to the ones he did not exact vengeance against, lol.

Why do you continue to yammer about a manga you never read?

No, it wasn't Naofumi who had the slave crest applied in order to perform the trial. The slave crest was applied expressly on the queen's orders so Myne could be compelled to tell the truth. It is outright said in the chapter, the slave crest is already established as an implement to punish the disobeying of orders, any order given in this sequence is only ever about telling the truth, and the one who ordered it had nothing to gain from compelling certain statements over others because she did not want to perform the executions.

Given that the queen is the judge, the jury and the executioner in a kangaroo court where no adversarial system is present, no legal defense permitted, results of torture are accepted as evidence, and neither legal codes nor legal precedents are used as basis of the law, royal pardon is traditionally well within the monarch's powers. She was free to do as she wished

Ref: Chapter 32, pages 32, 33.

The queen acknowledges Naofumi's deduction that he was "used" so that she could avoid making what would be the correct sentencing upon her husband and daughter who caused an international incident, falsely accused and sentenced a Cardinal Hero of raping a royal, and attempted to murder the heiress apparent (while also framing the same Cardinal Hero): death.

We're having an extended conversation in a chapter thread for an entirely unrelated manga because you choose to be disingenuous when not outright dishonest.

 

[eviljackspicer]

TLDR:

Danvolodar didn't read the source manga, therefore their observations/opinions on the subject are worthless.

Also, you just handwaving this fact to barf out your justified position is just hilarious. I watched communities ripped apart from the inside from people of a similar nature; morally outraged individuals who have only consumed a tiny portion of said content, if not at all, and proceeded to beat it into the ground, devoid of any and or all context in said medium, all while heralding themselves virtuous for point out how "horrible" that thing actually is. I've dealt with people like you before. You are nothing special.

Also to comment on your most recent post; A TLDR of your argument:

 

[danvolodar]

What? He didn't commit any of the crimes he was accused of. They committed every crime they were accused of

100% irrelevant whether the grievances motivating his eye-for-an-eye vengeance were valid.

they committed crimes that didn't even involve him, and the normal punishment for any of them was death.

Again: at no point is any legal code or formalized legal precedent referenced as the source of law, the punishments are apparently decided entirely arbitrarily by the highest legal authority, the queen.
The Shield just exploits that caricature of a legal system and makes sure the results are torturous and humiliating, is all - by way of "not exacting vengeance" and "constructive mercy", hahaha.

Instead of refusing to participate in that spectacle or seeking to change the system for the better when absolutely given the chance, he is shown precisely going out of his way to use it and cruelly and permanently hurt those who had wronged him, and that decision is never challenged - that is, silently assumed to be right.

There is absolutely nothing cruel about the categorically more merciful punishment they did receive.

Well yeah, if you consider the slave crest and the name change not to be cruel and unusual, lol. I mean, you can also call white black.

That's what says it is.

Except that its veracity is never established. It's a mind-reading torture implement, but how reliable the mind reading is never verified. The pseudomedieval imbeciles will have you believe it's reliable, of course - but it's not like real medieval people didn't believe actual torture, without mind-reading, to be a surefire way to establish the truth.

Why do you continue to yammer about a manga you never read?

This slander will not stand: I even soldiered through the turtle arc before dropping that trash entirely when it devolved into barely coherent drivel.

No, it wasn't Naofumi who had the slave crest applied in order to perform the trial.

No difference whether it's at his order or as a result of his actions, with no protests forthcoming from him when he could present these.

The queen acknowledges Naofumi's deduction that he was "used" so that she could avoid making what would be the correct sentencing

If you consider "going overboard was probably correct" to be referring to any source of law other than popular expectations, which is obviously not the case given the actual outcome of the trial.

We're having an extended conversation in a chapter thread for an entirely unrelated manga

True enough - think we should move over to the comments of the manga we're discussing?

because you choose to be disingenuous when not outright dishonest.

Truly sorry not to see exploiting arbitrary systems of justice to cruelly exact vengeance as morally justifiable.

 

[danvolodar]

TLDR: Danvolodar didn't read the source manga, therefore their observations/opinions on the subject are worthless.

tl;dr: fantasies don't change the fact that Rise is a flaming pile of garbage peddling ethically undefendable models of behaviour.

 

[Meridis]

TLDR:

Danvolodar didn't read the source manga, therefore their observations/opinions on the subject are worthless.

For awhile, I thought they were mixing up a later punishment where she's sentenced to be the new toy of king fabrey or however you spell it. Doesn't make sense though since, not only did Naofumi have nothing to do with sentencing her or the reason for it, it should have been completely cut from the light novels like how that shitty ending was cut out of the web novel where everyone just dies and Naofumi wakes up and leaves the bookstore like everything was a dream.

Guess they just have strong opinions on what constitues "cruel and unusual" punishment. Which is fine, there's been a lot of talk over the last decade about it and a lot of people came to the conclusion that the state has no business executing people or inflicting violence on them, mostly because they both keep getting the wrong people with it and the governments themselves reported that it wasn't proving to be effective. That said, Danvolodar is a little too invested in the logic of a fantasy story which would be built on contrivances such as video game system magic and such.

That said-

Danvolodar, seriously? "pick up lines?" That's a hella lot of motives you are shoving into the MC's mouth. The more you talk, the faster your IQ just drops through the floor. You don't read your source material and you use "justice" as a thinly veiled cloak to hide your ultra simp "MUH QUEEN" motives. Just stop you utter joke.

EQ is a little more relevant here than IQ. People don't go by a barebones literal reading of what others say. Given the context of the situation that the pov character knows about, and worse with the parts I think they don't know about, saying they're excited about this is a bad move, especially following telling her that you like her. That said, they're teenagers, I expect the pov character to fuck up and bumble around this situation, otherwise they wouldn't have taken so long to get to this point or done something more effective in the first place.

 

[Eighty-six]

Truly sorry not to see exploiting arbitrary systems of justice to cruelly exact vengeance as morally justifiable.

That's why I said what you quoted.

You started off this argument talking solely about how it glorified eye-for-an-eye retribution when it obviously and demonstrably didn't because the offenses weren't the same. You then slithered on to talk about the format of their justice system, also acting as if the writer not wasting time with citing the statute IDs for treason, causing diplomatic incidents, bearing false witness, and the attempted murder of the heiress apparent somehow indicates that there's no law they can be tried under.

You claimed the magic slave crest was a mind control device, and then when it was demonstrated that it clearly didn't control its bearer's mind, you tried likening it to conventional torture. It also apparently doesn't matter that Naofumi didn't even know it was applied before it was revealed.

When it was demonstrated that the only time it activated in this sequence was when a lie was told instead of the truth, you rehashed an asked-and-answered question from the very sequence. And then, after the answer was parenthetically cited, you tried to ask the same question again without any appeal to the narrative. It doesn't even make any sense to think that someone who (also parenthetically provably) didn't want to do a double execution of her kin would force said kin to say things that would mount the case for their execution.

If you actually read the manga, you're terrible at reading. Much more likely is that you're disingenuous and dishonest.

 

[Doedoel]

You have any examples you can rattle off?

Let's see, there's Nyanta and Pomeko, Shimotsuki-san, and to some extent, I think Bochikano counts. Although Bochikano is more of "this isn't an accurate depiction of loner, this is an incel or something, shrug), This one, too.

Yeah, those are all I could think of rn

 

[danvolodar]

Spoiler: A bunch of frankly boring quote-replies goes here

You started off this argument talking solely about how it glorified eye-for-an-eye retribution when it obviously and demonstrably didn't because the offenses weren't the same.

Eye for an eye retribution deals with damages, not offenses, even if you're willing to nitpick on the most literal of interpretations. Shield was humiliated and had his social standing ruined - his vengeance was the same.

You then slithered on to talk about the format of their justice system, also acting as if the writer not wasting time with citing the statute IDs

For someone accusing others of problems reading, you surely have issues following a simply presented argument: the parody of a court in which Shield agreed to participate legally allowed the queen (which was apparently supreme legal authority unconstrained even by traditional law the way she'd be even in real-life early Middle Ages) to issue any sentence and condemn anyone to anything, with no law or precedent limiting her options.
Yet, the result was what happened in the manga - on Shield's decision and thus on Shield's responsibility.

You claimed the magic slave crest was a mind control device, and then when it was demonstrated that it clearly didn't control its bearer's mind, you tried likening it to conventional torture.

Mind reading is mind control, pain delivered for acting "wrong" without damaging the body is mind control (and torture, yes). Do you think nitpicking adds anything to your arguments?

It apparently doesn't matter that Naofumi didn't even know it was applied before it was revealed.

I have nothing to add to "no difference whether it's at his order or as a result of his actions, with no protests forthcoming from him when he could present these" already stated above.

It doesn't even make any sense to think that someone who (also parenthetically provably) didn't want to do a double execution of her kin would force said kin to say things that would mount the case for their execution.

I am sure you can think of dozens of possible reasons to have a potential death sentence hanging over the heads of potential political rivals if you just think for a quarter minute.
Much easier to imagine than a reason for anyone decent to participate in that kind of a show trial, much less invent novel and particularly humiliating punishments for these who'd wronged him.

To sum our discussion so far up: my point was that the vengeance Shield exacted through the local parody of a court was hilariously morally undefendable.

You apparently claim placing mind-controlling slave brands and name-changing to obscenities via using said """court""", despite it having no semblance of adversary trial or any other trappings of fair justice, is a-okay and constitutes "constructive mercy" and "rejecting the impulse for vengeance", simply because the court could've sentenced the offenders to execution (and was expected to by the public).

I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree: moral systems that allow for conditionals like that can be used to justify just about any kind of behaviour, yet I'm not interested in arguing just why ethics and not hypotheticals should be used to evaluate actions.

 

[K_Takuya]

Sometimes I see the opinion wars on forums like this and I self reflect on how much I argue online.

 

[Lolcapba]

I cannot mfs out here arguing about another story. I'm dead weak on my knees right now

 

[BCS]

You put way too much thought into it.

And you put none. How about that

 

[BCS]

No matter how unruly or rebelious child you are I don't think anyone deserves sexual abuse by a family member.

Was sexual abuse ever implied?

 

[Kuu90]

Was sexual abuse ever implied?

It was directly shown on the author's fanbox, it's 18+ btw. It's also been translated here so you can probably find it under the works of the author

 

[DoubleK]

Just to be clear with the idiotic Shield Hero argument, the actual lore of what happens does not matter when observing a story's themes, as a writer can justify any action with lore.

Which to loop to the manga we should be talking about, "why did the author think that a weird pick up line was a good thing to say here?" (It was because it establishes the awkwardness of our POV protagonist)

 

[kn4ll]

Was sexual abuse ever implied?

Afaik her mother is only beating her and taking photos of her. Besides taking pretty intimate photos of her and selling them, there hasn't been mentioned any sexual abuse, though people were wondering before the latest R18 chapters were translated if her mother started selling her too. The photos have been getting worse though, so even though it hasn't apparently happened yet, it might soon and be why she chooses to take refuge I think.

I don't even get what's going on in this thread, I'm pretty certain that this isn't based on any novel or other work and is just a twitter/fan box manga. Can't you talk about Shield Hero under the Shield Hero chapters? Especially since it doesn't have remotely anything to do with this as far as I can tell. I'm not even certain if you're just trolling at this point and trying to ruin the discussion of this manga because you don't like it or something.