Berserk - Ch. 377 - Snake In One's Bosom

[Thrembs]

I agree, but that has always been a thing in Berserk. Guts did not care about the difference in raw power, skill and determination have long been the defining thing that makes him able to defeat the apostles which overpower even him, who in strength is probably the strongest human. It has been how the story goes even since the black swordsman arc. Guts is going "against causality" and defying the power of the god hand by living on even while bearing the sacrificial brand, I think in the endless suffering of Berserk the message of fighting back despite the struggle and the unsurmountable toll it takes has long been a strong point, honestly one of my favourite parts.

Before Griffith's rise, the Kushan Empire was the strongest power in the world of Berserk, and it seems they are continuing to hold their state even with the chaos of the fantastic being brought to the same plane of reality as humanity, and they anticipate that Fantasia is only going to expand, their plan is to be prepared before Griffith decides to finally attack. They are preparing for the inevitable and they will not surrender and submit. In a way, the Kushan Empire after Ganishka's death and the upheaval of the supernatural is preparing to fight on just like Guts.

I fucking love this Manga, RIP Miura, his friends are doing good work continuing with the story he left us.

“Against causality“ is such a pretentious thing the author has said.
That’s ALL of us if we don’t like the direction life is going.
If you believe in pure determinism, then you have three choices: give up (how one reacts to it is a whole other thing), ignore It and act as though one has free will, or try to find a way to break free of it (which, if it’s fact, is delusional).
If one believes in there being “a plan” the above STILL applies. He’s not SPECIAL for being “yeah, well fuck you!” He’s “the underdog fighting the power”. Could be the boss, the king, a system, a deity.

Calling it “causality” is so… 🙄
Fighting against the cause and/or process of things happening. Yeah. That sure is The Hero’s Journey.
That type of story isn’t the most common in Japan. not UNcommon, just not traditional. Things are somewhat different. The whole “the main character gets more powerful, is happy, encounters a foe or situation, then has to get more and more stronk with every encounter until he can win“ is classic story structure. I can’t remember the term.
Or Things seem to be going well, but it turns out it’s just an illusion and it falls apart the end. Or a character makes or has made a mistake that comes back to haunt them and they can never atone despite their efforts.
In my culture it’s just various events happening that affect each other to varying degrees, the pan the story reaches the important part and it ends. Often no falling action. Or a parable. Lotta those. Or just weirdness that people ascribe meanings later.

The West DOES have more story structures, but my point is that this is a Western story structure so the creator thought he was innovative, and found fancy philosophical terms to describe “fighting against a great power real hard yadda yadda yadda.”

 

[ale_city]

“Against causality“ is such a pretentious thing the author has said.
That’s ALL of us if we don’t like the direction life is going.
If you believe in pure determinism, then you have three choices: give up (how one reacts to it is a whole other thing), ignore It and act as though one has free will, or try to find a way to break free of it (which, if it’s fact, is delusional).
If one believes in there being “a plan” the above STILL applies. He’s not SPECIAL for being “yeah, well fuck you!” He’s “the underdog fighting the power”. Could be the boss, the king, a system, a deity.

Calling it “causality” is so… 🙄
Fighting against the cause and/or process of things happening. Yeah. That sure is The Hero’s Journey.
That type of story isn’t the most common in Japan. not UNcommon, just not traditional. Things are somewhat different. The whole “the main character gets more powerful, is happy, encounters a foe or situation, then has to get more and more stronk with every encounter until he can win“ is classic story structure. I can’t remember the term.
Or Things seem to be going well, but it turns out it’s just an illusion and it falls apart the end. Or a character makes or has made a mistake that comes back to haunt them and they can never atone despite their efforts.
In my culture it’s just various events happening that affect each other to varying degrees, the pan the story reaches the important part and it ends. Often no falling action. Or a parable. Lotta those. Or just weirdness that people ascribe meanings later.

The West DOES have more story structures, but my point is that this is a Western story structure so the creator thought he was innovative, and found fancy philosophical terms to describe “fighting against a great power real hard yadda yadda yadda.”

Well yeah it can be pretentious if taken in a literal sense, but I am taking it in the sense of the fantasy world we have seen and how it has been explained to us. Causality here is not literal, but there seems there is a level of determinism in this world, like how the crimson behelit chose Griffith and it didn't matter through what means, it ended up there with Griffith at the moment of the eclipse. What gets called "Causality" here in Berserk is implied to be a sort of real force that drives reality towards certain outcomes, and only a few beings are able to act outside of that "flow of events" or to control it even (the Skull knight/Gaiseric, Guts and Casca after surviving the eclipse, and the god hand members who are the ones who seem able to manipulate where that flow is headed). The story has left a lot of mysticism and intrigue, and that's not a bad thing.

If an author writes something mystical and tries to make it interesting, it's not being pretentious, it's being an author trying to write a captivating story, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. If Miura chose to use philosophical terms and some poetry-like language that doesn't make it "pretentious" that's just his style and how he wanted to write his story. I think you are the pretentious one pretending you are above a story or that you're too smart for it. A pretentious author in my opinion is only one that flatters themselves and the like, which to my knowledge Miura didn't do in his 3 decades of writing Berserk, or at least didn't do often.

 

[ProWaterDrinker]

I agree, but that has always been a thing in Berserk. Guts did not care about the difference in raw power, skill and determination have long been the defining thing that makes him able to defeat the apostles which overpower even him, who in strength is probably the strongest human. It has been how the story goes even since the black swordsman arc. Guts is going "against causality" and defying the power of the god hand by living on even while bearing the sacrificial brand, I think in the endless suffering of Berserk the message of fighting back despite the struggle and the unsurmountable toll it takes has long been a strong point, honestly one of my favourite parts.

Before Griffith's rise, the Kushan Empire was the strongest power in the world of Berserk, and it seems they are continuing to hold their state even with the chaos of the fantastic being brought to the same plane of reality as humanity, and they anticipate that Fantasia is only going to expand, their plan is to be prepared before Griffith decides to finally attack. They are preparing for the inevitable and they will not surrender and submit. In a way, the Kushan Empire after Ganishka's death and the upheaval of the supernatural is preparing to fight on just like Guts.

I fucking love this Manga, RIP Miura, his friends are doing good work continuing with the story he left us.

When you put it like that it makes a lot more sense, thank you for the explanation. I can't wait to see how this develops (in a couple months when the next chapter comes out)

 

[nokosama]

if you like this you are gay

Damn. I'm...I'm gay?

 

[Thrembs]

Well yeah it can be pretentious if taken in a literal sense, but I am taking it in the sense of the fantasy world we have seen and how it has been explained to us. Causality here is not literal, but there seems there is a level of determinism in this world, like how the crimson behelit chose Griffith and it didn't matter through what means, it ended up there with Griffith at the moment of the eclipse. What gets called "Causality" here in Berserk is implied to be a sort of real force that drives reality towards certain outcomes, and only a few beings are able to act outside of that "flow of events" or to control it even (the Skull knight/Gaiseric, Guts and Casca after surviving the eclipse, and the god hand members who are the ones who seem able to manipulate where that flow is headed). The story has left a lot of mysticism and intrigue, and that's not a bad thing.

If an author writes something mystical and tries to make it interesting, it's not being pretentious, it's being an author trying to write a captivating story, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. If Miura chose to use philosophical terms and some poetry-like language that doesn't make it "pretentious" that's just his style and how he wanted to write his story. I think you are the pretentious one pretending you are above a story or that you're too smart for it. A pretentious author in my opinion is only one that flatters themselves and the like, which to my knowledge Miura didn't do in his 3 decades of writing Berserk, or at least didn't do often.

One can do a pretentious thing or hold a pretentious idea and not be an inherently pretentious person.
andyeah, there’s a force. The big, heart shaped box- I mean god.
Like the gods on many other stories.

Also, fighting such a force doesn’t mean succeeding, or not, ultimately, being part of it. Bilam says “dude, I’ll try to curse the Hebrews, but Hashem’s just gonna make me say whatever He wants me to.” Then he tries. And it doesn’t work. Twice.

”A predetermined course of events.” Ok, so “fate”? How is “fate” a new concept. He thought this was an original idea, different from other ones, but… it isn’t. It’s just a different word.

but it doesn’t really matter at this point, because it’s been a bog-standard, lv10, dark AD&D module since he got the armour, at the latest.

 

[ale_city]

One can do a pretentious thing or hold a pretentious idea and not be an inherently pretentious person.
andyeah, there’s a force. The big, heart shaped box- I mean god.
Like the gods on many other stories.

Also, fighting such a force doesn’t mean succeeding, or not, ultimately, being part of it. Bilam says “dude, I’ll try to curse the Hebrews, but Hashem’s just gonna make me say whatever He wants me to.” Then he tries. And it doesn’t work. Twice.

”A predetermined course of events.” Ok, so “fate”? How is “fate” a new concept. He thought this was an original idea, different from other ones, but… it isn’t. It’s just a different word.

but it doesn’t really matter at this point, because it’s been a bog-standard, lv10, dark AD&D module since he got the armour, at the latest.

I know it's a stand in for the concept of fate, I know it doesn't change what it is, but I like the execution Miura did of it (we are yet to see how his colleagues handle it), and don't think I agree with your definition of pretentious, an author can simply try to be unique because they think it feels right for their story, in my opinion if they aren't thinking themselves better than others for it, it doesn't fit the label of pretentious. What if it's just a reworded way of describing fate? I don't really mind it, the word has come from the elder eldritch beings who talk in overly poetic and dramatic ways (Gaiseric/Skull Knight and the members of the God Hand besides Griffith) making me think it just fits the vibe of everything else.

 

[Thrembs]

I know it's a stand in for the concept of fate, I know it doesn't change what it is, but I like the execution Miura did of it (we are yet to see how his colleagues handle it), and don't think I agree with your definition of pretentious, an author can simply try to be unique because they think it feels right for their story, in my opinion if they aren't thinking themselves better than others for it, it doesn't fit the label of pretentious. What if it's just a reworded way of describing fate? I don't really mind it, the word has come from the elder eldritch beings who talk in overly poetic and dramatic ways (Gaiseric/Skull Knight and the members of the God Hand besides Griffith) making me think it just fits the vibe of everything else.

It’s his fate to fight against fate.
That’s what we’re talking about. It makes no sense. If he’s part of the system he’s part of the system. Hell, his actions (leaving) were a big factor into Griffith losing everything! Catalyst. You can’t be the instrument of fate and fight against fate especially when it’s your fate to fight fate! Oncd fate is on the table, it takes an entirely external force or someone trying to escape fate is simple fated to be a failure.
or it’s… bad writing.

To put on airs and act like this is some profound concept instead of just… lame nonsense? That’s pretentious.

Like, I have to push it out of my mind. I truly think the best way to experience this story is the OG anime. Skip episode one, put it at the end of the playlist. Then move on.

Wandering around in an apocalyptic scenario like some kind of Zatoichi on crack is cool, but to start there and then it’s just… medieval times?
Nah, start me in medieval times, and gradually give me weird revelations of magical shit. hen Zodd shows up and it’s WHAT THE FUCK?! And then it lulls you back into a false sense of security (aside the wonton violence, but… medieval times). Suddenly The Eclipse happens, but doesn’t overstay its welcome (Why is that a whole story arc in the manga? To fit in all the imagery?)
Cut to him fighting horrible things and there’s an elf (where were faeries in The Golden Age? Everything was all hunky-dory and any time anything magical happened it was shocking!) and it’s all weird the end.

Better to end a tragedy than continue until it becomes Saturday morning cartoons for goths.

 

[Ahab19]

Who is that? I can't remember anymore.

Rakshas​

 

[ale_city]

It’s his fate to fight against fate.
That’s what we’re talking about. It makes no sense. If he’s part of the system he’s part of the system. Hell, his actions (leaving) were a big factor into Griffith losing everything! Catalyst. You can’t be the instrument of fate and fight against fate especially when it’s your fate to fight fate! Oncd fate is on the table, it takes an entirely external force or someone trying to escape fate is simple fated to be a failure.
or it’s… bad writing.

To put on airs and act like this is some profound concept instead of just… lame nonsense? That’s pretentious.

Like, I have to push it out of my mind. I truly think the best way to experience this story is the OG anime. Skip episode one, put it at the end of the playlist. Then move on.

Wandering around in an apocalyptic scenario like some kind of Zatoichi on crack is cool, but to start there and then it’s just… medieval times?
Nah, start me in medieval times, and gradually give me weird revelations of magical shit. hen Zodd shows up and it’s WHAT THE FUCK?! And then it lulls you back into a false sense of security (aside the wonton violence, but… medieval times). Suddenly The Eclipse happens, but doesn’t overstay its welcome (Why is that a whole story arc in the manga? To fit in all the imagery?)
Cut to him fighting horrible things and there’s an elf (where were faeries in The Golden Age? Everything was all hunky-dory and any time anything magical happened it was shocking!) and it’s all weird the end.

Better to end a tragedy than continue until it becomes Saturday morning cartoons for goths.

Well, we will have to disagree then.

I like it, the concept of fighting fate or being unbound from fate to me is fun in fantasy, this manga started as fantasy, then had a long few arcs of a normal early modern world with growing mistique and fantasy elements and then we had the eclipse. The Golden Age was not the beginning of the story, the black swordsman was, go read the first chapter again this whole manga started with Guts fucking a woman in the woods that then turned into a demon and Guts shoved his prosthetic canon arm into her mouth to blow her up, then he went to a city full of thugs to provoke them and lure out a snake lizard apostle of the god hand, where he met a little elf flying about. Then after we see Guts confront the god hand again is that we turn to the Golden Age arc where a baby is born from a corpse and we learn it's the knight we were following. The fantasy goes away for a while but builds back up again, I can't consider it bad writing it didn't end after the eclipse because the story started after the eclipse and with a set up that things would escalate.

Fighting fate is not "condemned to failure or bad writing if there's success", because fate is not a definite real concept, rather it is an abstract concept that exist in some beliefs, and fantasy using the concept of "fate" or "destiny" or other terms that some works like to use instead because they feel like it, like "causality", are very open to have their own representation of fate. Fighting fate is not a new concept and I don't think Miura ever pretended it was or pretended something special by calling his fantasy manga's version of fate "Causality. He started writing a story about going against predestination and fighting higher powers above humanity, his own take on the concept, how it's a grueling fight with many failures. And I just think that's good, I have very much enjoyed what his take was to write such story.

I don't consider it pretentious because the author did not act as if he had come up with some profound concept, Miura is one thing and fanboys that put him in an altar and make it out that everything he wrote in Berserk was a masterfully thought out piece of media. I just, enjoy it, don't think it's pretentious because there's no higher pretention really expressed, only projected by some fans who believe themselves to be expert media gurus. And I think I can enjoy that.