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We will all die without any closure.
Berserk - Vol. 41 Ch. 359 - A Wall
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Can we get an F in the chat for our boy Guts?
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This was a very short chapter in my opinion.
Guts doesn't deserve this I guess I was too hopeful.
Guts doesn't deserve this I guess I was too hopeful.
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@MangaField
I’m getting the indication that you only watched the Golden age movies(they hollowed out many of the relationships) and then read the manga(even then I still wonder if you just didn’t read it well), so I'll respond with what I got from reading the manga. Guts didn’t start his trust issues because of the rape, it only started after Gambino told him that he was the one who sold him as a child prostitute, told him he should have died and he was chased out of his only home, it wasn’t only one thing it was all these series of event and they were expertly done because of the fact that Gambino is Guts’ only father who taught him all he knew and Guts, always wanted to prove himself to him when Guts killed Gambino, it wasn’t rage, he just lunged his sword in sadness(not only has he stated this in the manga but his expression in the manga is one of sadness). Next, you say that Griffith and Casca have little characterization but that isn’t true, I’ll explain Griffith then Casca but I’ll Segway to the war scenes in Berserk. You say the Golden Age is a worse kingdom but first of all, I think the Golden Age is actually better than Kingdom(but this is my personal preference) and Kingdom is a military drama while Berserk’s Golden Age was a character drama with a militaristic backdrop and there are only three actual military battles with armies and they were the battle for Doldrey, the battle at the end of volume 4 and beginning of volume 5 and maybe the battle with the black rams in volume 5(but this isn’t really an army battle because it end too quickly). Anyway, I’ll start with the volume 4-5, it had strategy didn’t you read it clearly, Griffith’s plan was that the hawks will ride through the centre of the enemy camp from the centre and set fire to the enemy rations and supplies while Guts will be the rear guard, they moved in the river which had a swift current and it was also a day of strong wind and Griffith chose the rear for attack because it was windward and it will fan the flames. Against the black rams, Guts and Casca’s armies were meant to flank the enemy(black rams) and form a containment around the enemy for Griffith main force to charge into but Guts charged in to kill the general so Griffith went with it and attacked the enemy using an arrow formation(check the manga). You say Miura tells not show not this is strictly untrue, during Doldrey his plan was for the Guts’ raiders to charge to the enemy line and retreat back to the HQ and the enemy will chase them because of name recognition, the fact that the purple rhinos had an advantage of numbers and the fact that the hawk had a river to their back and seemed like sitting ducks. Griffith plan was for Guts as the strongest member to face Boscogne the general of the purple rhinos and as the rhinos come to attack them, Casca’s leads her force into Doldrey using a sandstorm to cover her tracks, the army is in disarray due to the loss of their general and the moral is broken as their base has fallen, so most flee and the rest of them are taken care of by the hawks. In the end, this battle was more of a drama, it was set up that Governor-General Gennon who was put in charge of the Fortress and Griffith had to prostitute himself to, and he felt defiled by him but what made the battle and eventual confrontation with Gennon amazing for me was that Griffith had overcome Gennon and only saw him like a pebble on road not worthy of resentment or endearment, and that’s how most the battles in the Golden Age are, character dramas conveyed through battle. Now Griffith’s character, when we first see Griffith in the Golden Age we see a beautiful, charismatic young man who acts childlike, is a genius at the sword and is trusted by his men but then we find out about Griffith from the way his men talk about him and his interactions. Griffith was a commoner who grew up in a feudal class system that grew up idolizing castles and kings, so he set out to make a name for himself and acquire his own kingdom and that's why his men idolize him because he held to his convictions, strives to achieve them and succeed each time. Griffith is someone who acts like a sociopath because he shaped his life around his goal of having a kingdom and but he isn’t truly like this and the manga goes to lengths to show this in Griffith’s interactions with Guts and Casca, Casca’s flashback and Griffith’s hallucination when he became Femto. Despite, what a lot of people say Griffith was a kind-hearted person who deeply cares about his men and saw Guts as his dear friend above everyone else, his kindhearted nature is shown when he saved and comforted Casca as a young child, he obviously did this as an act of kindness and morality because as a child Casca had nothing to offer him. But we saw the impact Griffith’s dream had on him and his relationship with the hawk, this is shown in Casca’s flashback when Griffith saw the boy who died in battle, only he remembered the child and he was heartbroken, these two things showed Griffith’s relationship with the members of the hawk, he deeply cared about the members of the Hawk and even if he didn’t consider them as friends or that he rationalized to himself that they died on their own accord, he still felt responsible and if there was something he could do (like prostituting himself to Gennon) to honour the death of those who died and to prevent as many deaths as he could. Griffith was also someone how held a believe that people should spend their chasing their ambitions and believed that his friend could only be those who were his equal with a deeply held ambition that they strived to succeed in without being compelled by others(this is why Guts left the hawks, he wanted to become Griffith’s friend, his equal) but paradoxically Griffith deeply valued Guts and his feelings betrayed his convictions. You could say that Griffith’s fatal flaw was his own belief in his worldview, that's why he betrayed the hawks and Guts so he could put the pieces of his broken dream back together.
Now for Casca, Casca is someone how looked up to Griffith not just as a common “fangirl” but because he extends a helping hand to her in her time of need, giving her comfort and a new way of life. Miura also did this masterfully because he not only showed that she cared deeply about Griffith but what would happen when she saw her position as Griffith next to Griffith taken away by a usurper. Her loyalty and devotion to Griffith made her want strength so she will be able to serve sword in the pursuit of his dream, knowing how much of a burden his dream was on him. Because of this, she initially resents for Guts, she was jealous of the fact that he was more important to Griffith that her and angry because Griffith would put himself in danger for the reckless Guts. But aside from this, Casca was a determined and capable leader in the Band of the Hawk who and her leadership is so great that she is able to rally the Hawks behind her in their moment of and prevent their complete annihilation for a year following Griffith's imprisonment. Even during the Eclipse(before the invocation of doom), Casca does not allow the Hawks to panic and keeps them in formations. Casca is also shown to have a hardened personality but is this way because she wants to mask her vulnerability and her status as a woman is the source of her unease, and she masks it with a guard of sternness, lashing out with physical violence when she felt vulnerability(like when she had her period during battle). Beneath this guarded exterior, Casca wants to be accepted as both a warrior and as a woman, which she originally desires from Griffith but was able to get from Guts and it was anything but short she started liking him fully at the end of volume 8 and it ended after her being raped in volume 13 about 51 chapters. The rest of the Hawks did get characterization despite what you say I’ll make this part brief, the rest of the hawks who get screen time are Judeau, Rickert, Corkus, Pippin and Gaston.
Judeau was shown to be a kind, laid-back person and welcoming person seeing as he was the first person to interact friendly with Guts and welcome him to the hawks, he also has a keen sense of empathy and was able to understand the emotions of other people even when they suppressed them. He also was in love with Casca but because he knew Guts and Casca loved each other, he put Casca before himself in the hopes that it would make her happy.
Corkus always appeared as cynical person who talked big about himself but deep down, he was actually an idealistic person that's why he chose to stay with Griffith and was heartbroken when the person who he believed in was gone and his dreams were shattered. He also hated Guts because he felt that he was never fully committed to the hawks and because to him Guts acted like “he was the only one to bear any burden or pain in life.” But deep down he knew how much Griffith valued Guts( during the battle for doldrey he had a worried expression and after Guts left he reassured him it wasn’t his fault in his own way).
Pippin: He was very quiet and rarely spoke. When he did, it was often to make an important observation or to warn his companions, such as ordering the Hawks to duck against the arrows shot by Midland's soldiers or holding a cup to Guts and telling him to drink. He was shown as caring and loyal, and was always accompanying Rickert, the youngest member of the Hawks, and made sure to protect in battle. He did not get angry easily, retaining his peaceful expression even after being elbowed by an unappreciative Guts.
Gaston: Gaston was one of the Raiders that had a deep respect for Guts, both as a commanding officer and friend. Gaston never regretted joining the Hawks, but, as Guts said in the campfire of dreams with Casca, he wanted to save up his earnings to open a clothing shop in Wyndham. He was unable to achieve this, after being outlawed like the other members of the Hawks, but as he said to Guts, he wasn’t disappointed, instead, he was joyful that his place was with the Hawks and that the Raiders were a family to him.
Rickert: He was always shown to be a gentle and innocent member of the hawks and he initially idolized Guts for his strength after he saved him during the night raid but this eventually becomes friendship. His gentleness in conjunction with his more rational(emotionally strong side) side was the reason he created the hill of swords as a way to honour the hawks, as opposed to going on a quest for revenge like Guts. That’s why he only slapped Griffith when he met him, he was someone who sure he felt pain from his loss but he moved on and held on to the people he cared about Erica and Godot and it was also him rejecting that with was created with the deaths and suffering of the people he cared about. His greatest attribute is his intelligence and engineering skill taught to him by Godot and this has been shown several times in the story.
And the eclipse wasn’t shallow because we did see the Hawks has friends and how much they admired Griffith, the first time was how much they were worried about him during the first Guts and Griffith fight, the banter they have, how much the trusted Griffith during the first night raid, they party together, had fun together and extended a hand of friendship to Guts, the fact that they are quick to jump in to help Guts and Casca when they are in trouble and after Gaston was ready to stand up for them when they were accused of breaking their line to engage in personal combat, they were so worried when Griffith nearly died that they jumped to embrace him, Guts’ men cried when he left and when he came back to them. The hawks were also ready to stay with Griffith after he was a broken man and Guts raiders loved him so much that they didn’t want him to go again and where ready to follow him. Their camaraderie was far from hollow.
After the GA arc, it wasn’t just “Guts becomes a softie and gets friends, like in some damn Shounen. Throw in lots of fanservice (mindless gore and rape)”, the lost children chapters was a coming of age story for Jill, it also showed how wrathful Guts could be but through Jill it worked to humanize him showing he could be protective of someone else and inspire them to grow up, and gave the most sympathetic villain of the series(Rosine), the incarnation ceremony chapters was a sekaikei(an individual societal drama) that gave us amazing character like Luca, Jerome, Farnese, Serpico and one that I don’t particularly care for but is actually well written(Isidro). Conviction arc was there so Guts could change and become a better person with and find people who he cared about, so he could make a “conviction” to himself that he would never abandon those who he cared about and for Griffith to come back and complete his story arc. Falcon of the Millennium was there mostly for Griffith but it was a well-done story arc, it fleshed out the world of a Berserk, gave us an interesting villain, let us see Guts as a father figure to Schierke, a mentor to Isidro and a leader and role model to Farnese, it also set the stage for the next half of Berserk and allowed Guts to start to complete his character arc and move away from revenge and gave characters like Owen, Silat and Laban their own story arc. Fantasia, this was mostly just a questing arc and nothing really happened aside from introducing new characters and showing the results of their journey(Isidro becoming a warrior, Farnese practicing magic) but it as started Rickert’s character arc of being the protector of Erica and let us see Rickert’s response to Griffith and the loyalty of Griffith’s war demon and also the interactions in Griffith’s kingdom and completed the Casca’s insanity story arc.
As for character arcs not progressing, Farnese’s transition from knight templar with a repressed emotionally nature to doormat to someone who has started standing on her own to feet and atoning for her past, Serpico learning to let Farnese live her own life, Isidro learn to become a strong swordsman and starting to care for other people, Schierke coming to understand that the human world isn’t just filled with vulgarity and ignorance and opening up to people other than Flora. Finally, if you don’t like the story okay, in the end, art is subjective but I just completely disagree with you. Oh and just to add something how is Guts getting companions like a shounen(having friends isn't something unique to shounen), I have never got this and even if it was like a shounen what's wrong with that, that's hardly any criticism.
I’m getting the indication that you only watched the Golden age movies(they hollowed out many of the relationships) and then read the manga(even then I still wonder if you just didn’t read it well), so I'll respond with what I got from reading the manga. Guts didn’t start his trust issues because of the rape, it only started after Gambino told him that he was the one who sold him as a child prostitute, told him he should have died and he was chased out of his only home, it wasn’t only one thing it was all these series of event and they were expertly done because of the fact that Gambino is Guts’ only father who taught him all he knew and Guts, always wanted to prove himself to him when Guts killed Gambino, it wasn’t rage, he just lunged his sword in sadness(not only has he stated this in the manga but his expression in the manga is one of sadness). Next, you say that Griffith and Casca have little characterization but that isn’t true, I’ll explain Griffith then Casca but I’ll Segway to the war scenes in Berserk. You say the Golden Age is a worse kingdom but first of all, I think the Golden Age is actually better than Kingdom(but this is my personal preference) and Kingdom is a military drama while Berserk’s Golden Age was a character drama with a militaristic backdrop and there are only three actual military battles with armies and they were the battle for Doldrey, the battle at the end of volume 4 and beginning of volume 5 and maybe the battle with the black rams in volume 5(but this isn’t really an army battle because it end too quickly). Anyway, I’ll start with the volume 4-5, it had strategy didn’t you read it clearly, Griffith’s plan was that the hawks will ride through the centre of the enemy camp from the centre and set fire to the enemy rations and supplies while Guts will be the rear guard, they moved in the river which had a swift current and it was also a day of strong wind and Griffith chose the rear for attack because it was windward and it will fan the flames. Against the black rams, Guts and Casca’s armies were meant to flank the enemy(black rams) and form a containment around the enemy for Griffith main force to charge into but Guts charged in to kill the general so Griffith went with it and attacked the enemy using an arrow formation(check the manga). You say Miura tells not show not this is strictly untrue, during Doldrey his plan was for the Guts’ raiders to charge to the enemy line and retreat back to the HQ and the enemy will chase them because of name recognition, the fact that the purple rhinos had an advantage of numbers and the fact that the hawk had a river to their back and seemed like sitting ducks. Griffith plan was for Guts as the strongest member to face Boscogne the general of the purple rhinos and as the rhinos come to attack them, Casca’s leads her force into Doldrey using a sandstorm to cover her tracks, the army is in disarray due to the loss of their general and the moral is broken as their base has fallen, so most flee and the rest of them are taken care of by the hawks. In the end, this battle was more of a drama, it was set up that Governor-General Gennon who was put in charge of the Fortress and Griffith had to prostitute himself to, and he felt defiled by him but what made the battle and eventual confrontation with Gennon amazing for me was that Griffith had overcome Gennon and only saw him like a pebble on road not worthy of resentment or endearment, and that’s how most the battles in the Golden Age are, character dramas conveyed through battle. Now Griffith’s character, when we first see Griffith in the Golden Age we see a beautiful, charismatic young man who acts childlike, is a genius at the sword and is trusted by his men but then we find out about Griffith from the way his men talk about him and his interactions. Griffith was a commoner who grew up in a feudal class system that grew up idolizing castles and kings, so he set out to make a name for himself and acquire his own kingdom and that's why his men idolize him because he held to his convictions, strives to achieve them and succeed each time. Griffith is someone who acts like a sociopath because he shaped his life around his goal of having a kingdom and but he isn’t truly like this and the manga goes to lengths to show this in Griffith’s interactions with Guts and Casca, Casca’s flashback and Griffith’s hallucination when he became Femto. Despite, what a lot of people say Griffith was a kind-hearted person who deeply cares about his men and saw Guts as his dear friend above everyone else, his kindhearted nature is shown when he saved and comforted Casca as a young child, he obviously did this as an act of kindness and morality because as a child Casca had nothing to offer him. But we saw the impact Griffith’s dream had on him and his relationship with the hawk, this is shown in Casca’s flashback when Griffith saw the boy who died in battle, only he remembered the child and he was heartbroken, these two things showed Griffith’s relationship with the members of the hawk, he deeply cared about the members of the Hawk and even if he didn’t consider them as friends or that he rationalized to himself that they died on their own accord, he still felt responsible and if there was something he could do (like prostituting himself to Gennon) to honour the death of those who died and to prevent as many deaths as he could. Griffith was also someone how held a believe that people should spend their chasing their ambitions and believed that his friend could only be those who were his equal with a deeply held ambition that they strived to succeed in without being compelled by others(this is why Guts left the hawks, he wanted to become Griffith’s friend, his equal) but paradoxically Griffith deeply valued Guts and his feelings betrayed his convictions. You could say that Griffith’s fatal flaw was his own belief in his worldview, that's why he betrayed the hawks and Guts so he could put the pieces of his broken dream back together.
Now for Casca, Casca is someone how looked up to Griffith not just as a common “fangirl” but because he extends a helping hand to her in her time of need, giving her comfort and a new way of life. Miura also did this masterfully because he not only showed that she cared deeply about Griffith but what would happen when she saw her position as Griffith next to Griffith taken away by a usurper. Her loyalty and devotion to Griffith made her want strength so she will be able to serve sword in the pursuit of his dream, knowing how much of a burden his dream was on him. Because of this, she initially resents for Guts, she was jealous of the fact that he was more important to Griffith that her and angry because Griffith would put himself in danger for the reckless Guts. But aside from this, Casca was a determined and capable leader in the Band of the Hawk who and her leadership is so great that she is able to rally the Hawks behind her in their moment of and prevent their complete annihilation for a year following Griffith's imprisonment. Even during the Eclipse(before the invocation of doom), Casca does not allow the Hawks to panic and keeps them in formations. Casca is also shown to have a hardened personality but is this way because she wants to mask her vulnerability and her status as a woman is the source of her unease, and she masks it with a guard of sternness, lashing out with physical violence when she felt vulnerability(like when she had her period during battle). Beneath this guarded exterior, Casca wants to be accepted as both a warrior and as a woman, which she originally desires from Griffith but was able to get from Guts and it was anything but short she started liking him fully at the end of volume 8 and it ended after her being raped in volume 13 about 51 chapters. The rest of the Hawks did get characterization despite what you say I’ll make this part brief, the rest of the hawks who get screen time are Judeau, Rickert, Corkus, Pippin and Gaston.
Judeau was shown to be a kind, laid-back person and welcoming person seeing as he was the first person to interact friendly with Guts and welcome him to the hawks, he also has a keen sense of empathy and was able to understand the emotions of other people even when they suppressed them. He also was in love with Casca but because he knew Guts and Casca loved each other, he put Casca before himself in the hopes that it would make her happy.
Corkus always appeared as cynical person who talked big about himself but deep down, he was actually an idealistic person that's why he chose to stay with Griffith and was heartbroken when the person who he believed in was gone and his dreams were shattered. He also hated Guts because he felt that he was never fully committed to the hawks and because to him Guts acted like “he was the only one to bear any burden or pain in life.” But deep down he knew how much Griffith valued Guts( during the battle for doldrey he had a worried expression and after Guts left he reassured him it wasn’t his fault in his own way).
Pippin: He was very quiet and rarely spoke. When he did, it was often to make an important observation or to warn his companions, such as ordering the Hawks to duck against the arrows shot by Midland's soldiers or holding a cup to Guts and telling him to drink. He was shown as caring and loyal, and was always accompanying Rickert, the youngest member of the Hawks, and made sure to protect in battle. He did not get angry easily, retaining his peaceful expression even after being elbowed by an unappreciative Guts.
Gaston: Gaston was one of the Raiders that had a deep respect for Guts, both as a commanding officer and friend. Gaston never regretted joining the Hawks, but, as Guts said in the campfire of dreams with Casca, he wanted to save up his earnings to open a clothing shop in Wyndham. He was unable to achieve this, after being outlawed like the other members of the Hawks, but as he said to Guts, he wasn’t disappointed, instead, he was joyful that his place was with the Hawks and that the Raiders were a family to him.
Rickert: He was always shown to be a gentle and innocent member of the hawks and he initially idolized Guts for his strength after he saved him during the night raid but this eventually becomes friendship. His gentleness in conjunction with his more rational(emotionally strong side) side was the reason he created the hill of swords as a way to honour the hawks, as opposed to going on a quest for revenge like Guts. That’s why he only slapped Griffith when he met him, he was someone who sure he felt pain from his loss but he moved on and held on to the people he cared about Erica and Godot and it was also him rejecting that with was created with the deaths and suffering of the people he cared about. His greatest attribute is his intelligence and engineering skill taught to him by Godot and this has been shown several times in the story.
And the eclipse wasn’t shallow because we did see the Hawks has friends and how much they admired Griffith, the first time was how much they were worried about him during the first Guts and Griffith fight, the banter they have, how much the trusted Griffith during the first night raid, they party together, had fun together and extended a hand of friendship to Guts, the fact that they are quick to jump in to help Guts and Casca when they are in trouble and after Gaston was ready to stand up for them when they were accused of breaking their line to engage in personal combat, they were so worried when Griffith nearly died that they jumped to embrace him, Guts’ men cried when he left and when he came back to them. The hawks were also ready to stay with Griffith after he was a broken man and Guts raiders loved him so much that they didn’t want him to go again and where ready to follow him. Their camaraderie was far from hollow.
After the GA arc, it wasn’t just “Guts becomes a softie and gets friends, like in some damn Shounen. Throw in lots of fanservice (mindless gore and rape)”, the lost children chapters was a coming of age story for Jill, it also showed how wrathful Guts could be but through Jill it worked to humanize him showing he could be protective of someone else and inspire them to grow up, and gave the most sympathetic villain of the series(Rosine), the incarnation ceremony chapters was a sekaikei(an individual societal drama) that gave us amazing character like Luca, Jerome, Farnese, Serpico and one that I don’t particularly care for but is actually well written(Isidro). Conviction arc was there so Guts could change and become a better person with and find people who he cared about, so he could make a “conviction” to himself that he would never abandon those who he cared about and for Griffith to come back and complete his story arc. Falcon of the Millennium was there mostly for Griffith but it was a well-done story arc, it fleshed out the world of a Berserk, gave us an interesting villain, let us see Guts as a father figure to Schierke, a mentor to Isidro and a leader and role model to Farnese, it also set the stage for the next half of Berserk and allowed Guts to start to complete his character arc and move away from revenge and gave characters like Owen, Silat and Laban their own story arc. Fantasia, this was mostly just a questing arc and nothing really happened aside from introducing new characters and showing the results of their journey(Isidro becoming a warrior, Farnese practicing magic) but it as started Rickert’s character arc of being the protector of Erica and let us see Rickert’s response to Griffith and the loyalty of Griffith’s war demon and also the interactions in Griffith’s kingdom and completed the Casca’s insanity story arc.
As for character arcs not progressing, Farnese’s transition from knight templar with a repressed emotionally nature to doormat to someone who has started standing on her own to feet and atoning for her past, Serpico learning to let Farnese live her own life, Isidro learn to become a strong swordsman and starting to care for other people, Schierke coming to understand that the human world isn’t just filled with vulgarity and ignorance and opening up to people other than Flora. Finally, if you don’t like the story okay, in the end, art is subjective but I just completely disagree with you. Oh and just to add something how is Guts getting companions like a shounen(having friends isn't something unique to shounen), I have never got this and even if it was like a shounen what's wrong with that, that's hardly any criticism.
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@Ola33
Dude, you just wrote more words about Berserk than Miura wrote in the Berserk-chapters of the last 5 years 😂
You don‘t seriously expect me to read all that, do you?
And no, I haven‘t watched the anime. I don‘t watch any anime. I just knew that Berserk was supposed to be the best manga and the reality of reading it was... underwhelming. Nothing after the Golden Age arc is anything special (apart from the artwork). Also, the spoiler in the first chapters (that Griffith betrayed them) was a huge mistake. The plot twist in the flashback would‘ve been way better without us already knowing.
Dude, you just wrote more words about Berserk than Miura wrote in the Berserk-chapters of the last 5 years 😂
You don‘t seriously expect me to read all that, do you?
And no, I haven‘t watched the anime. I don‘t watch any anime. I just knew that Berserk was supposed to be the best manga and the reality of reading it was... underwhelming. Nothing after the Golden Age arc is anything special (apart from the artwork). Also, the spoiler in the first chapters (that Griffith betrayed them) was a huge mistake. The plot twist in the flashback would‘ve been way better without us already knowing.
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2019
- Messages
- 9
@MangaField
I don’t really care about your appraisal of the story but what irked me was that you said things like “some girls get raped by penis monsters” which never happened I mean even during the eclipse Casca only got raped by Griffith, you disregard Griffith and Casca’s characterization, along with the rest of the hawks(for the most part the narrative didn’t focus on them but the ones that got screen time did get characterization), you say there was no strategy in the Golden age when if you pay attention to the only three military battles shown you’ll know there was, also what made Griffith great was the fact that he was able to defeat the black rams and purple rhinos when his peers could not(and he wasn’t portrayed as god-like during the GA, only during falcon of the millennium when he was an actual god), and you reduce Guts reaction to Gambino as one of rage. Also had a problem with you comparing the GA and Kingdom they aren’t the same genre, they are a character drama in a militaristic setting and a military epic respectively, you say Guts left for reasons and in the manga, he gave his reason(he didn’t want to be under Griffith because that way he could never be Griffith’s ideal of a friend)
But honestly what irked me the most is that you disregard the character arcs of Guts, Farnese, Serpico, Jill, Schierke, Isidro, the story arcs of minor characters like Owen, Laban, Jill, Luca, Nina, Rosine, the themes of child abuse and corruption of childhood innocence in the lost children arc, the shifting of Guts goals in the conviction arc from revenge to taking care of and restoring Casca, individual societal drama in the conviction arc, the world-building in the falcon of the millennium arc and say its just fanservice. Also, I didn’t understand why you hate Guts becoming a “softie” and getting friends, they(his allies) all have their own character arc and him becoming a kinder, gentler person was a logical character arc(would you rather have him remain a borderline sociopath)
I don’t really care about your appraisal of the story but what irked me was that you said things like “some girls get raped by penis monsters” which never happened I mean even during the eclipse Casca only got raped by Griffith, you disregard Griffith and Casca’s characterization, along with the rest of the hawks(for the most part the narrative didn’t focus on them but the ones that got screen time did get characterization), you say there was no strategy in the Golden age when if you pay attention to the only three military battles shown you’ll know there was, also what made Griffith great was the fact that he was able to defeat the black rams and purple rhinos when his peers could not(and he wasn’t portrayed as god-like during the GA, only during falcon of the millennium when he was an actual god), and you reduce Guts reaction to Gambino as one of rage. Also had a problem with you comparing the GA and Kingdom they aren’t the same genre, they are a character drama in a militaristic setting and a military epic respectively, you say Guts left for reasons and in the manga, he gave his reason(he didn’t want to be under Griffith because that way he could never be Griffith’s ideal of a friend)
But honestly what irked me the most is that you disregard the character arcs of Guts, Farnese, Serpico, Jill, Schierke, Isidro, the story arcs of minor characters like Owen, Laban, Jill, Luca, Nina, Rosine, the themes of child abuse and corruption of childhood innocence in the lost children arc, the shifting of Guts goals in the conviction arc from revenge to taking care of and restoring Casca, individual societal drama in the conviction arc, the world-building in the falcon of the millennium arc and say its just fanservice. Also, I didn’t understand why you hate Guts becoming a “softie” and getting friends, they(his allies) all have their own character arc and him becoming a kinder, gentler person was a logical character arc(would you rather have him remain a borderline sociopath)
@MangaField
I agree with a lot of what you said. I just finished reading Berserk again up to this point (took me a few days, maybe a week, bad with time). That being said, it seems you have misinterpreted some things or have forgotten some things in your comment.
1.
"Griffith is a god-like person who wants to rule a kingdom. That‘s his goal which has priority over everything else. That’s it. Wow, how original. /s The rest of his character is just „tell, not show“, which is the exact opposite of what a storyteller should do. There is no reason to believe, that Griffith is so great, except that the mangaka tells us we should believe that."
Griffith is a strange character who is very difficult to pin down. From moment to moment, he's a calculated general, a black-hearted assassin, and a man with boyish dreams. One moment, he has Guts burn the band's enemies alive, the next he's concerned if Guts thinks he's cruel. He is kindhearted yet "doesn't dislike taking things by force". His motivation/goals is to have a kingdom. We don't know why. We have only gotten a tiny glimpse of his background so far. He's much more complex than what you make him out to be. These days, however, it's easy to see why you describe him as such, as he essentially does just seem like "a perfect god" but there's even some nuance to that. He takes multiple forms, for one, between the leader of the band of the hawk Griffith, Femto, and likely the Moonchild.
2.
"Casca is a random chick, who got saved by Griffith and her whole character revolves around being a fangirl of Griffith, without him ever even acknowledging her. That is, until she falls in love with Guts, which doesn‘t last long and she loses her memory and mind, because she got raped by Griffith. The rest of the story she is a useless idiot and rape-bait."
Her mind/soul/etc. being shattered and turning her into a broken doll is indeed a bit annoying. We feel for Guts in that regard and being annoyed by her in that state is intended; therefore it's good writing; it inherits an emotional response. She constantly bites the hand that feeds her, gets Guts into trouble, and holds him back from his true ambition -- it's frustrating as fuck and it's supposed to be. Remember when Guts was tempted by the beast to rape her and tear her apart? (Also, this is neither here nor there, but I feel like this new Casca is super different from the old Casca. Perhaps proof that she never got a lot of fleshing out to begin with or maybe he forgot how to write her after so long... lol.)
3.
"The whole Golden Age-Arc is a worse version of the manga Kingdom: there is no strategy in the battles at all, it‘s always just the same pattern: strong enemy gets introduced, Guts beats him, while Griffith has somehow crafted a genius tactic that wins the battle, though we never see his strategies in detail (like in Kingdom). The mangaka just tells us we should believe he is such a great general. Yeah right."
I actually agree with this one. The strategy on display typically is very basic; formations and placement, mostly, with simple strategies such as "send the OP guy to kill the other OP guy". It's still enjoyable though. And within this universe, what he does WORKS, so technically that alone means he's good for something, no? (It's not like he's up against genius strategies himself.)
4.
"Then comes the whole thing with the princess and Griffith’ attempt to overthrow the kingdom. That was actually my favorite arc in the manga. Finally some actual, clever storywriting. Didn‘t last long though, Griffith gets tortured, Guts & Co. rescue him, yada yada, aaaaand eclipse. Was decent enough, especially the artwork. Somewhere between we get Guts who leaves his friends, because.... Reasons."
This is just dumb. Anyone can do this. "The part where Luke blows up the Death Star is my favorite part. Didn't last long though, Luke flies through the trench, blows it up, yada yada, aaaaand the credits roll." You're just gimping your own enjoyment because you want to be bitter for the sake of being bitter. Just allow yourself to like something
5.
"But ultimately the eclipse was disappointing. Simply because we never get a real sense of friendship between the guys in the band of hawks. It‘s all just too shallow and superficial. So the ultimate sacrifice in the eclipse falls flat."
Yes, the characters were pretty shallow, I agree with that. I remember not being able to tell the difference between "What about your clothing shop? What about your clothing shop? But your clothing shop?!" Gaston and the guy whose entire character is forever disliking Guts. That being said, I wouldn't say the eclipse fell flat because of this, despite it being a large part. It just depends on where you put your focus -- on your own experience of "losing" these characters (which would require a lot more character development and such between the raiders), or Guts losing his comrades (namely character development). My thought is just that Miura wasn't a strong enough writer to flesh out so many characters in such a short time in a way akin to showing instead of telling. I've been writing creatively for years, so I at least have some idea of what writing characters is like. How do you split up your time between so many characters and progress the plot? Neglecting the latter, I'd say, would be worse overall, as it could feel like pure fluff with no substance, almost like filler. For the latter, you won't feel as much connection to the characters. (I really doubt this will resonate with absolutely anyone here, but take the Boruto anime adaption as an example of the "fluffy characters" extreme, with how much focus is put on them instead of the plot. It can feel like the anime is floundering. [I genuinely enjoy character fluff, slice-of-life stuff, personally, just bringing up an observation.]) Edit: I think Miura also shot himself in the foot by wrapping the Golden Age into a huge flashback. If he hadn't, maybe he would have felt more compelled to take his time with it, develop the characters more...
I almost forgot the most egregious point of yours:
6.
"The rest of the story we return to the present timeline, where Guts becomes a softie and gets friends, like in some damn Shounen."
Someone forgot the GA arc, where "Guts is a softie and gets friends"... Did you forget his longing for comradery after leaving the hawk? The times he said, "I never thought I'd have something like this again." He's only a hard lone wolf guy for 2 sections, one at the very beginning and one before he joins the band of the hawk (and a short time during that and after). Was he not a "softie" to you when he opened up to Casca and made love to her? When he saved her from drowning and nursed her back to health? If anything, he's far less soft with his new group of friends than he was with the BotH. He showed concern about Gaston's stupid clothing shop. He gazed out over the campfire of dreams. Feels like this is just a blatant "I forgot" moment on your part. That or everyone just selectively remembers Guts' rage faces and badassery... https://www.pinterest.ch/pin/296885800427160771/
I agree with a lot of what you said. I just finished reading Berserk again up to this point (took me a few days, maybe a week, bad with time). That being said, it seems you have misinterpreted some things or have forgotten some things in your comment.
1.
"Griffith is a god-like person who wants to rule a kingdom. That‘s his goal which has priority over everything else. That’s it. Wow, how original. /s The rest of his character is just „tell, not show“, which is the exact opposite of what a storyteller should do. There is no reason to believe, that Griffith is so great, except that the mangaka tells us we should believe that."
Griffith is a strange character who is very difficult to pin down. From moment to moment, he's a calculated general, a black-hearted assassin, and a man with boyish dreams. One moment, he has Guts burn the band's enemies alive, the next he's concerned if Guts thinks he's cruel. He is kindhearted yet "doesn't dislike taking things by force". His motivation/goals is to have a kingdom. We don't know why. We have only gotten a tiny glimpse of his background so far. He's much more complex than what you make him out to be. These days, however, it's easy to see why you describe him as such, as he essentially does just seem like "a perfect god" but there's even some nuance to that. He takes multiple forms, for one, between the leader of the band of the hawk Griffith, Femto, and likely the Moonchild.
2.
"Casca is a random chick, who got saved by Griffith and her whole character revolves around being a fangirl of Griffith, without him ever even acknowledging her. That is, until she falls in love with Guts, which doesn‘t last long and she loses her memory and mind, because she got raped by Griffith. The rest of the story she is a useless idiot and rape-bait."
Her mind/soul/etc. being shattered and turning her into a broken doll is indeed a bit annoying. We feel for Guts in that regard and being annoyed by her in that state is intended; therefore it's good writing; it inherits an emotional response. She constantly bites the hand that feeds her, gets Guts into trouble, and holds him back from his true ambition -- it's frustrating as fuck and it's supposed to be. Remember when Guts was tempted by the beast to rape her and tear her apart? (Also, this is neither here nor there, but I feel like this new Casca is super different from the old Casca. Perhaps proof that she never got a lot of fleshing out to begin with or maybe he forgot how to write her after so long... lol.)
3.
"The whole Golden Age-Arc is a worse version of the manga Kingdom: there is no strategy in the battles at all, it‘s always just the same pattern: strong enemy gets introduced, Guts beats him, while Griffith has somehow crafted a genius tactic that wins the battle, though we never see his strategies in detail (like in Kingdom). The mangaka just tells us we should believe he is such a great general. Yeah right."
I actually agree with this one. The strategy on display typically is very basic; formations and placement, mostly, with simple strategies such as "send the OP guy to kill the other OP guy". It's still enjoyable though. And within this universe, what he does WORKS, so technically that alone means he's good for something, no? (It's not like he's up against genius strategies himself.)
4.
"Then comes the whole thing with the princess and Griffith’ attempt to overthrow the kingdom. That was actually my favorite arc in the manga. Finally some actual, clever storywriting. Didn‘t last long though, Griffith gets tortured, Guts & Co. rescue him, yada yada, aaaaand eclipse. Was decent enough, especially the artwork. Somewhere between we get Guts who leaves his friends, because.... Reasons."
This is just dumb. Anyone can do this. "The part where Luke blows up the Death Star is my favorite part. Didn't last long though, Luke flies through the trench, blows it up, yada yada, aaaaand the credits roll." You're just gimping your own enjoyment because you want to be bitter for the sake of being bitter. Just allow yourself to like something
5.
"But ultimately the eclipse was disappointing. Simply because we never get a real sense of friendship between the guys in the band of hawks. It‘s all just too shallow and superficial. So the ultimate sacrifice in the eclipse falls flat."
Yes, the characters were pretty shallow, I agree with that. I remember not being able to tell the difference between "What about your clothing shop? What about your clothing shop? But your clothing shop?!" Gaston and the guy whose entire character is forever disliking Guts. That being said, I wouldn't say the eclipse fell flat because of this, despite it being a large part. It just depends on where you put your focus -- on your own experience of "losing" these characters (which would require a lot more character development and such between the raiders), or Guts losing his comrades (namely character development). My thought is just that Miura wasn't a strong enough writer to flesh out so many characters in such a short time in a way akin to showing instead of telling. I've been writing creatively for years, so I at least have some idea of what writing characters is like. How do you split up your time between so many characters and progress the plot? Neglecting the latter, I'd say, would be worse overall, as it could feel like pure fluff with no substance, almost like filler. For the latter, you won't feel as much connection to the characters. (I really doubt this will resonate with absolutely anyone here, but take the Boruto anime adaption as an example of the "fluffy characters" extreme, with how much focus is put on them instead of the plot. It can feel like the anime is floundering. [I genuinely enjoy character fluff, slice-of-life stuff, personally, just bringing up an observation.]) Edit: I think Miura also shot himself in the foot by wrapping the Golden Age into a huge flashback. If he hadn't, maybe he would have felt more compelled to take his time with it, develop the characters more...
I almost forgot the most egregious point of yours:
6.
"The rest of the story we return to the present timeline, where Guts becomes a softie and gets friends, like in some damn Shounen."
Someone forgot the GA arc, where "Guts is a softie and gets friends"... Did you forget his longing for comradery after leaving the hawk? The times he said, "I never thought I'd have something like this again." He's only a hard lone wolf guy for 2 sections, one at the very beginning and one before he joins the band of the hawk (and a short time during that and after). Was he not a "softie" to you when he opened up to Casca and made love to her? When he saved her from drowning and nursed her back to health? If anything, he's far less soft with his new group of friends than he was with the BotH. He showed concern about Gaston's stupid clothing shop. He gazed out over the campfire of dreams. Feels like this is just a blatant "I forgot" moment on your part. That or everyone just selectively remembers Guts' rage faces and badassery... https://www.pinterest.ch/pin/296885800427160771/
I just got into Berserk and finished reading it in 3 days...and oh wow, I wish I'd started sooner. I must say, though, that Guts' life thus far is such a bad tragedy that I only wished for his happiness throughout the journey. Even now, he has to bear the pain and anguish for being a bit selfish. That selfishness always resulted in the worst events, but it isn't even truly selfish -- no ill intent or anything of the sort. I don't know...I think that Guts is what I really like in protagonists, which I don't see that often nowadays, even if it's a huge tangled mess of hurt.
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