Brother for Rent - Vol. 3 Ch. 11
- Thread starter MangaDex
- Start date
Member
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2020
- Messages
- 223
@rebel16 Sounds like you're missing how depression develops. It is very abnormal for it to onset this quickly, from the moment of the phone call to slapping the sister and being unrepentant about it. If the brother had slapped the sister and then acted surprised at his own action and then later on became jaded/mean/etc., that would make more sense. We saw none of that here.
You don't just instantly go from extremely loving to what we saw, with no transition. Sounds like some folks here don't understand how depression works, and that would include you.
You don't just instantly go from extremely loving to what we saw, with no transition. Sounds like some folks here don't understand how depression works, and that would include you.
Group Leader
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2018
- Messages
- 943
"that does not make it good writing if it is outside what is expected."
No, if everything that happens is only within what is expected, that's hilariously bad writing.
https://screencraft.org/2019/07/08/how-to-differentiate-good-writing-from-bad/
"There’s nothing worse than a predictable story.
When you get to the end of a film, and you’ve been surprised by nothing, it’s frustrating. When you reach the end of a book, and you’ve predicted every plot point through to the end, it’s agonizing."
The fact that the brother's behaviour is abnormal is not the question, as it is definitely abnormal. The fact that you call this "bad writing" because it is outside of what is expected is just nonsense on more than a few levels.
No, if everything that happens is only within what is expected, that's hilariously bad writing.
https://screencraft.org/2019/07/08/how-to-differentiate-good-writing-from-bad/
"There’s nothing worse than a predictable story.
When you get to the end of a film, and you’ve been surprised by nothing, it’s frustrating. When you reach the end of a book, and you’ve predicted every plot point through to the end, it’s agonizing."
The fact that the brother's behaviour is abnormal is not the question, as it is definitely abnormal. The fact that you call this "bad writing" because it is outside of what is expected is just nonsense on more than a few levels.
Member
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2020
- Messages
- 223
@Maiorem Okay, fine, the realm of "reasonable expectation". Let's say we have a normal high-school series, slice of life, school life, etc. Then, on chapter 45, gravity suddenly turns off, and completely separately, animals reveal that they've been able to talk all along. No foreshadowing. No buildup. Nothing.
This is sometimes called a Deus ex Machina. My example has a deus ex machina happen at chapter 45, but here, I'm saying that this story had it happen in the flashbacks, before the first chapter. Unless properly justified, it is almost universally recognized that this is not good writing. And here, I'm saying that there is not proper justification. We both agree that it is abnormal. I'm saying that it is beyond the scope of what could reasonably be expected, even if it could actually happen in real life. Just like with my example of a person getting their food thrown away and then wanting to eradicate humanity, that's flimsy justification, even if it could theoretically happen. Same thing here.
You swing way too far to the opposite by saying quoting that line about a predictable story. By that logic, everything should strive for unpredictability at every moment. By that logic, the main character should be switching rental brothers every chapter, every scene, even within every panel. That's clearly absurd and shows why it's about the realm of reasonable expectation.
This is sometimes called a Deus ex Machina. My example has a deus ex machina happen at chapter 45, but here, I'm saying that this story had it happen in the flashbacks, before the first chapter. Unless properly justified, it is almost universally recognized that this is not good writing. And here, I'm saying that there is not proper justification. We both agree that it is abnormal. I'm saying that it is beyond the scope of what could reasonably be expected, even if it could actually happen in real life. Just like with my example of a person getting their food thrown away and then wanting to eradicate humanity, that's flimsy justification, even if it could theoretically happen. Same thing here.
You swing way too far to the opposite by saying quoting that line about a predictable story. By that logic, everything should strive for unpredictability at every moment. By that logic, the main character should be switching rental brothers every chapter, every scene, even within every panel. That's clearly absurd and shows why it's about the realm of reasonable expectation.
Double-page supporter
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2019
- Messages
- 575
@nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you weren't capable of understanding that multiple conditions can exist at the same time. So! Sometimes people can snap when a stimulus pushes them past their rage point, causing previously kindly or placid people to lash out with violence, sometimes with deadly results. This can indeed make someone go from extremely loving to insanely violent in a heartbeat. So it seems that her brother experienced such an event, which probably further fueled the depression - heck, it may have even caused it to worsen, when it might not have been as bad if he hadn't taken his action. I mean, what good and loving person would act like that against their own family, right?
So there you go! Now hopefully you've learned a bit more about depression, sudden and incongruous fits of rage, and not behaving like a shitty person when your expectations collide with the tight boundaries of your limited knowledge. Personal growth!
So there you go! Now hopefully you've learned a bit more about depression, sudden and incongruous fits of rage, and not behaving like a shitty person when your expectations collide with the tight boundaries of your limited knowledge. Personal growth!
Member
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2020
- Messages
- 223
@rebel16 Comment one by rebel16: specifically talks only about depression. Comment two by rebel16: furious covering of their ass by talking about other issues such as sudden and incongruous fits of rage that was never mentioned in the first comment even though it would totally be expected that this would be brought up then. What's next, in your third comment you'll start talking about a third mental condition to try to cover it up again?
My goodness. You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it's theoretically possible in real life. It doesn't even matter if it actually did happen in real life (usually; maybe the story is based on true experiences, in which case, it could make sense). I specifically gave an example of a person having their food thrown away and wanting to go on a genocidal rampage as a result. Imagine I wrote a story about that and made it serious. Is that good writing?
That's not even getting into the fact that you're massively speculating. Where have we seen any kind of medical diagnosis of the brother's condition? Yeah, he might be exhibiting those symptoms of those conditions, but unless the author actually puts that in the story, am I supposed to make up excuses for the author?
You're trying to cover not only your own ass but the author's too.
My goodness. You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it's theoretically possible in real life. It doesn't even matter if it actually did happen in real life (usually; maybe the story is based on true experiences, in which case, it could make sense). I specifically gave an example of a person having their food thrown away and wanting to go on a genocidal rampage as a result. Imagine I wrote a story about that and made it serious. Is that good writing?
That's not even getting into the fact that you're massively speculating. Where have we seen any kind of medical diagnosis of the brother's condition? Yeah, he might be exhibiting those symptoms of those conditions, but unless the author actually puts that in the story, am I supposed to make up excuses for the author?
You're trying to cover not only your own ass but the author's too.
Member
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2020
- Messages
- 223
Member
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2020
- Messages
- 223
@ilaya I'm guessing you're calling me the phony. If not, ignore my comment.
You couldn't even read what I actually wrote, which is ironic because I wrote about what is good and bad writing. It doesn't matter if it's theoretically/psychologically possible. The brother could've had an aneurysm at the exact moment of getting the phone call that informed him of their parents' death, and the aneurysm is what makes him have this personality. That's completely physically/psychologically possible. Doesn't make it good writing.
And yeah, because any of the actual psychological stuff I said was wrong. Right. Zero explanations. Great.
Again, if that wasn't directed at me, disregard.
You couldn't even read what I actually wrote, which is ironic because I wrote about what is good and bad writing. It doesn't matter if it's theoretically/psychologically possible. The brother could've had an aneurysm at the exact moment of getting the phone call that informed him of their parents' death, and the aneurysm is what makes him have this personality. That's completely physically/psychologically possible. Doesn't make it good writing.
And yeah, because any of the actual psychological stuff I said was wrong. Right. Zero explanations. Great.
Again, if that wasn't directed at me, disregard.
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2019
- Messages
- 660
It’s too bad the real brother snapped and is grieving in a destructive way. All those responsibilities, the grieving...The point is human emotions are irrational, and I do hope something good changes.
😂 I can’t see this ending other than 1.) cops/social workers are called or 2.) relatives pick her up.
😂 I can’t see this ending other than 1.) cops/social workers are called or 2.) relatives pick her up.
Member
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2020
- Messages
- 223
@kylie_aliah I'm trying not to seem overly antagonistic, but I have to disagree. Human emotions are somewhat irrational, not totally irrational. Imagine if the brother didn't care about money, was in a loving relationship with his parents, and then got told that his parents were dead. Now imagine that he becomes happy. That would be weird. Weird would be a light way of putting it. Unless there's some other reason (maybe they were terminally ill and went peacefully), then that doesn't make sense.
There is a limit to how irrational human emotions are expected to be. Being happy because you heard your parents died is an example of going beyond that limit (unless there's a deeper reason). All I'm saying is that slapping your younger sister immediately after you hear your parents died goes beyond that limit too.
There is a limit to how irrational human emotions are expected to be. Being happy because you heard your parents died is an example of going beyond that limit (unless there's a deeper reason). All I'm saying is that slapping your younger sister immediately after you hear your parents died goes beyond that limit too.
Group Leader
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2018
- Messages
- 943
@nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv
Are sci-fi or fantasy the only genres you think can go beyond expectation? That's pitiful. In fact, this situation about her brother has been introduced since chapter 3, not suddenly thrust to us in the middle of nothing. What kind of foreshadowing or buildup are you even expecting for this sort of thing? Are you even sure you know what you're talking about?
>it is beyond the scope of what could reasonably be expected, even if it could actually happen in real life.
???
Do you not understand the meaning of "irrational behaviour"? The fact that it's unjustified is what makes it irrational.
I don't think that's how logic works. You said "that does not make it good writing if it is outside what is expected" which indicates that if there is anything that goes outside of what is expected, it is bad writing. Stating that a certain level of unpredictability is not saying that everything should strive for unpredictability at every moment. Your strictly limited realm of "reasonable expectation" is not the measure for good or bad writing, kupamanduka.
Are sci-fi or fantasy the only genres you think can go beyond expectation? That's pitiful. In fact, this situation about her brother has been introduced since chapter 3, not suddenly thrust to us in the middle of nothing. What kind of foreshadowing or buildup are you even expecting for this sort of thing? Are you even sure you know what you're talking about?
>it is beyond the scope of what could reasonably be expected, even if it could actually happen in real life.
???
Do you not understand the meaning of "irrational behaviour"? The fact that it's unjustified is what makes it irrational.
I don't think that's how logic works. You said "that does not make it good writing if it is outside what is expected" which indicates that if there is anything that goes outside of what is expected, it is bad writing. Stating that a certain level of unpredictability is not saying that everything should strive for unpredictability at every moment. Your strictly limited realm of "reasonable expectation" is not the measure for good or bad writing, kupamanduka.
Member
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2020
- Messages
- 223
@Maiorem You fail to read so many of my posts and so much of what I wrote.
Is scifi or fantasy the only genres that I know? First, totally irrelevant. Your question is completely unimportant to this topic. Second, if you actually read, I gave other examples that are not in scifi or fantasy. I keep saying it over and over again. I gave the example of a person having their food thrown away and therefore becoming genocidal. That's not fantasy or scifi. You kept ignoring it.
The point there is that example is bad writing for the exact same reason this series is bad writing.
And you can't even grasp what I'm actually talking about. It would be adequate foreshadowing to explain why the brother changed so much so quickly. There is none here. Again, you don't get it. I have to repeat myself because you keep failing to read. Him getting the news of his parents dying and then him immediately slapping his sister makes no sense here. He was loving and caring literally immediately before the phone call. Is it too hard to understand that the transition makes no sense?
---
You're literally using the words "irrational behavior" as an escape hatch because you fail to think. Refer to my example of if he had instead become happy. What if he heard the news of his parents being dead and then he became happy? That's irrational behavior. According to you, that's okay worrying because irrational behavior. That's lazy. That's bad writing.
---
And you don't know how logic works. If you ignore the realm of "reasonable expectations", then you do get really crappy writing. You get a story like gravity suddenly stopping and animals talking with no buildup. You justify a story where "irrational behavior" means anything can happen, so you don't even try to explain anything.
Yes, that is how your logic works. Look up argument ad absurdum. I'm showing how if I followed your words, then we would end up with absurd results. It's because your logic is flawed.
Is scifi or fantasy the only genres that I know? First, totally irrelevant. Your question is completely unimportant to this topic. Second, if you actually read, I gave other examples that are not in scifi or fantasy. I keep saying it over and over again. I gave the example of a person having their food thrown away and therefore becoming genocidal. That's not fantasy or scifi. You kept ignoring it.
The point there is that example is bad writing for the exact same reason this series is bad writing.
And you can't even grasp what I'm actually talking about. It would be adequate foreshadowing to explain why the brother changed so much so quickly. There is none here. Again, you don't get it. I have to repeat myself because you keep failing to read. Him getting the news of his parents dying and then him immediately slapping his sister makes no sense here. He was loving and caring literally immediately before the phone call. Is it too hard to understand that the transition makes no sense?
---
You're literally using the words "irrational behavior" as an escape hatch because you fail to think. Refer to my example of if he had instead become happy. What if he heard the news of his parents being dead and then he became happy? That's irrational behavior. According to you, that's okay worrying because irrational behavior. That's lazy. That's bad writing.
---
And you don't know how logic works. If you ignore the realm of "reasonable expectations", then you do get really crappy writing. You get a story like gravity suddenly stopping and animals talking with no buildup. You justify a story where "irrational behavior" means anything can happen, so you don't even try to explain anything.
Yes, that is how your logic works. Look up argument ad absurdum. I'm showing how if I followed your words, then we would end up with absurd results. It's because your logic is flawed.
Group Leader
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2018
- Messages
- 943
@nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv
The examples of unexpected writing you gave are sci-fi/fantasy examples. The only other example you gave was that of a person becoming genocidal for having their food thrown away, but you're using that as an example to say how absurd the brother's behaviour is. Indeed, I elected to ignore it because it is a meaningless example in the context of what I was explaining to you.
Your point required you to introduce fantasy/sci-fi elements into a series that is neither fantasy nor sci-fi at the 45th chapter. This is the exact reason why I asked if sci-fi and fantasy the only genres you think can go beyond expectation. Or rather, do you think sci-fi and fantasy are the only genres you think should be allowed to go beyond expectation?
Indeed, I won't pretend to be able to grasp the absurdity of your reasoning. A sudden change in the brother's behaviour is caused by the psychological trauma of losing both his parents at the same time. Heck, even losing one parent is enough to completely change a person's character. What kind of "foreshadowing" are you looking for when the cause is already clear-cut? Just because the transition makes no sense to you doesn't mean it is inexplicable. I just explained to you what psychological trauma does to a person.
I'm not sure if you think only one form of irrational behaviour is allowed, because that's plain irrational. I don't understand what you're trying to say when you said, "According to you, that's okay worrying because irrational behavior." What's "okay worrying"? And even if it was the case that he becomes happy at hearing news of his parents' death, why would that be lazy or bad writing? Because you're too ignorant to consider that things in the world happen beyond what you know and understand?
No one is ignoring the realm of reasonable expectations. The problem is, your expectations are fundamentally limited and therefore unreasonable. The problem with you is that you think anything that happens outside of your set of reasonable expectations is therefore unreasonable, without realising that your expectations are like that of a frog that lived its entire life beneath a well. We know in real life that psychological trauma can induce drastic changes in behaviour up to and including behaviours that are considered irrational, therefore the brother's actions and behaviours are very much realistic since it reflects things that do happen in real life. Now, acknowledging that such a thing exists is not the same as saying that such a thing is acceptable, but this, of course, puts a nail in the coffin of your ignorant judgement of "bad writing" based on personal incredulity.
The problem is you're not following my words. You're not following any semblance of logic at all.
The examples of unexpected writing you gave are sci-fi/fantasy examples. The only other example you gave was that of a person becoming genocidal for having their food thrown away, but you're using that as an example to say how absurd the brother's behaviour is. Indeed, I elected to ignore it because it is a meaningless example in the context of what I was explaining to you.
Your point required you to introduce fantasy/sci-fi elements into a series that is neither fantasy nor sci-fi at the 45th chapter. This is the exact reason why I asked if sci-fi and fantasy the only genres you think can go beyond expectation. Or rather, do you think sci-fi and fantasy are the only genres you think should be allowed to go beyond expectation?
Indeed, I won't pretend to be able to grasp the absurdity of your reasoning. A sudden change in the brother's behaviour is caused by the psychological trauma of losing both his parents at the same time. Heck, even losing one parent is enough to completely change a person's character. What kind of "foreshadowing" are you looking for when the cause is already clear-cut? Just because the transition makes no sense to you doesn't mean it is inexplicable. I just explained to you what psychological trauma does to a person.
I'm not sure if you think only one form of irrational behaviour is allowed, because that's plain irrational. I don't understand what you're trying to say when you said, "According to you, that's okay worrying because irrational behavior." What's "okay worrying"? And even if it was the case that he becomes happy at hearing news of his parents' death, why would that be lazy or bad writing? Because you're too ignorant to consider that things in the world happen beyond what you know and understand?
No one is ignoring the realm of reasonable expectations. The problem is, your expectations are fundamentally limited and therefore unreasonable. The problem with you is that you think anything that happens outside of your set of reasonable expectations is therefore unreasonable, without realising that your expectations are like that of a frog that lived its entire life beneath a well. We know in real life that psychological trauma can induce drastic changes in behaviour up to and including behaviours that are considered irrational, therefore the brother's actions and behaviours are very much realistic since it reflects things that do happen in real life. Now, acknowledging that such a thing exists is not the same as saying that such a thing is acceptable, but this, of course, puts a nail in the coffin of your ignorant judgement of "bad writing" based on personal incredulity.
The problem is you're not following my words. You're not following any semblance of logic at all.
Member
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2020
- Messages
- 223
It's really pathetic of you. You're willing to give the author so much leeway and say oh, this is so understandable. When it comes to any of my comments, you not only give no leeway, you insert random, arbitrary conditions.
I gave sci-fi and fantasy examples because those would be easy to understand. That does NOT mean that my point only works with fantasy/sci-fi elements. The fact that you failed to grasp this is really sad.
This basically sums up the major flaw with almost everything that you wrote. Just because something DOES make sense to you doesn't mean that it's good writing.
That was a typo. I fully admit that auto-correct made my sentence nonsensical. It was supposed to be "writing", not "worrying".
Yeah, this just shows how actually bad you are. Yes, that is bad writing. Is that so hard for you to grasp? The author relies upon [something] as a major plot point. The [something] is beyond what people would reasonably expect. The author fails to ever explain [something]. That is bad writing. It's bad writing for the exact same reasons that deus ex machinas are bad writing. Because it's lazy.
That's the problem with what you've said. It encourages authors to be lazy and literally not explain important things.
Again, refer to my point above where it's actually you that has limited experiences. You think that this is acceptable. Nope. I'm repeating myself because you don't listen. The fact that there are comments, both here and in other chapters and on other websites, that question the brother's mind/motivations/etc. shows that it's questionable. It shows that the author has not answered those questions. It shows that the author has failed to explain. You keep calling this realistic because YOU think that it's realistic. You're the one thinking that your personal experiences must match up with other people's.
Again, if we go by what you say, then screw explaining anything. Yes, that is bad writing. It's really sad that you can't even understand that simple fact.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2018
- Messages
- 2,986
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2018
- Messages
- 9,378
I am amused at how people try to find reality through fiction.
Go read dictionary or something.
Go read dictionary or something.
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2019
- Messages
- 162
I'm surprised child services isn't intervening. Shouldn't the rental Onii-chan and Daigo's mother be more concerned considering Kanami's real brother has a history of attacking her (verbally and physically)?
In regards to the mess below me (I only skimmed through and skipped the large text walls so I might repeat or echo points idk):
In regards to the mess below me (I only skimmed through and skipped the large text walls so I might repeat or echo points idk):
In chapter 3 it seemed like he might blame her for 'not being able to do anything'. He had to deal with greedy people after the inheritance but Kanami didn't. After dealing with another greedy adult, Kanami said that she was "trying really hard" which must have struck a chord with him because in his eyes, she's obviously not doing anything.
He might also blame her for their parents death because she mentioned that they were going to bring back pudding so he might've been going through 'what ifs' in his mind.
Human nature isn't something that is always predictable, outliers exist. People can and may act 'out of the norm'. Sometimes there's no rhyme or reason behind one's actions.
He might also blame her for their parents death because she mentioned that they were going to bring back pudding so he might've been going through 'what ifs' in his mind.
Human nature isn't something that is always predictable, outliers exist. People can and may act 'out of the norm'. Sometimes there's no rhyme or reason behind one's actions.
Similar threads
