Summary at the bottom, you can skip the wall of text if you want, and just address the summary at the end.
in such a way that it flowed well and wasn't too exposition-based.
My points were not contending this - so it was more of a detraction than anything else.
good story-telling both from an artistic level and a visually based medium perspective.
I could argue against that, but I will refrain. As I mentioned, my original points have little to do with it.
Speaking as someone who didn't own a smartphone until last year, my junior year of High School, society is very dependent on your ability to access the internet, communicate, and stay in touch with various people that is required just to be up-to-date on your assignments and info.
Speaking as a working PhD living abroad (I am certain I have more social responsibilities than our MC considering my position), I can tell you with certainty that you can live just fine without a smartphone. It's a convenience, and more often than not a time sink (and detrimental to your focusing abilities after you develop bad habits). Anyways, you used it as a point to motivate his mother's "neglect", when you can clearly see that she was struggling financially. Not getting a smartphone does not constitute neglect, nor is it a necessity - it's a convenience.
he has not seen what goes on during sex and is not aware of the actual process
You have no basis for this statement. He has had sex ed, is jerking off to softcore porn, and is old enough. The natural conclusion is that yes,
he knows what sex is. The author didn't go out of his way either to include any details that will actually make you believe otherwise, so your idea
that he doesn't understand what sex is, is not justified (at least not from the manga).
it's still plausible that your average 5th-6th grader won't have a complete understanding of sex
Not more plausible than knowing what sex is. You have more reasons to believe that he has a normal understanding of what sex involves given all the points above than
the opposite. If the author wanted to make this a plot point you would have had something for it, as it is, it is the less plausible interpretation, which relies on a number of
assumptions not in the original text. Having had sex ed, jerking off to softcore porn magazines, and being old enough are all arguments against your interpretation present in
the text. This begs the question, what are the arguments supporting your interpretation?
If you have limited experience with interacting with people, a lot of unspoken things and aspects of body language will be lost to you. Say someone like you or me may understand the implication of seeing a homeless girl take money off the street
I disagree that he does not understand what prostitution is because he's socially inept. He's bad at social interactions, which doesn't mean that he doesn't know basic definitions. That is, he may have trouble holding a conversation or reacting adequately, as seen in the manga, but it doesn't mean that his reasoning capabilities are impaired. You do not need to be a social butterfly to know what prostitution is, actually I would argue that the two are unrelated.
you probably would be less informed than the normal person at that age.
I disagree - kids' talk about sex is actually counter informative. Also doesn't change the fact that given all the points I had outlined you have no reason to believe he doesn't know what sex is
over the opposite. You're lacking arguments from the source material to support your interpretation - that's the main issue.
From how he acts and what he does in chapter 1, he very much doesn't understand fully what a prostitute is.
Please elaborate on that point. Why do you believe (based on the text) that he doesn't understand what a prostitute is? As in what does he believe a prostitute is, and how does that
justify his actions morally?
He does not act like he wants sex from her. He does not act like he wants her solely to satisfy his own desires.
I disagree. Or will you argue that he is there to satisfy her desires? And what does he act like, if not what's obvious from the text?
which we can deduce all the Middle School boys she's met have tried to solicit her for sex.
No, you cannot deduce this without making several assumptions and a pretty large logical jump.
What you can deduce is that others were not as socially inadequate when asking for her services, nor did they bring chump change.
No, his actions do not confirm what he knows what he is doing. He never has sex with her nor does he ever do anything sexual.
So what do his actions mean in your interpretation? He goes to a prostitute and pays her for her services. He never has sex with her because: A) he does not have
the money for that (or for any service for that matter), B) simply doesn't have the balls to (even speak normally).
If you look at all their interactions, the JK is leading HIM on, not the other way around.
She's not the one that came to his school to ask him for his "patronage", he came to her, with his "money" no less.
I seriously doubt he would be able to understand the full implications of prostitution and the ethics of it not just at this age but at this time in his life.
You have no reason to. He came to her, after hearing she is a prostitute, with the money from his mother. He clearly understands the idea of exchanging his money (albeit he doesn't realize
his few cents amount to nothing) for her services. The softcore porn mag previously was just setting this up, precisely to emphasize that he realizes very well what he's going for. There's more
in the text against your belief that he doesn't understand what he's doing, than against the opposite.
MC doesn't have any friends, nor anyone close. Everyone, even his mother, is distant and cold towards him. He's an outcast, a pariah and a scapegoat. What else can he turn to? What else can he try to do? So he turns to the outcasts and pariahs of society.
You're framing this as if the natural progression is to go and pay some homeless girl for her services. Could you clarify how you get from him not having friends to a prostitute is the solution?
I don't see the logical link there, or how that justifies his actions. For example - "What else can he do?" - a lot of things, starting with actually socializing with people. Yes, it would be required for him
to go out of his comfort zone, to actually open his mouth and utter a few words, but I do not believe that is too much to ask for. Or are we going to blame everything but him for his situation? He's not a
baby, you cannot blame everything else but him.
Why would he go to prostitute with money?
Indeed, why would you go to a prostitute with money? If anything that solidifies the point that he knows very well what he's doing.
Does he even fully understand what a prostitute is beside a person you take money to in exchange for something intimate?
Does this matter to my point? No. That's close enough, I do not expect him to make any distinction between a full-service sex worker or an escort anyways.
It doesn't affect my point whether he makes a distinction between those. He's clearly trying to take advantage of her being homeless and having to sell herself.
Notably, I expect this to progress further than him groping her breasts for money (but possibly less than sex).
I don't think it's fair to his character to simply look at an action devoid of the context around the action and pass judgement on it, especially in this case where we know MC doesn't understand people.
The latter does not justify him. It's a decision he made consciously, it's still unethical. And he is still pathetic.
Are you sure about that? He brings her food in the second chapter and he does a lot that would imply otherwise
For instance, this scene implies he's going to check in on her and make sure she's okay.
Are we reading the same thing? He was not bringing the cake for her, he was going home with the cake, and just fell, collected the cake, and went back home after their interaction.
The doesn't imply anywhere that he's checking on her to make sure she's ok. On the contrary:
Because you're just a horny brat that carries money for women.
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Right.
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He doesn't deny any of it.
When MC says something like "I'm making sure to save up to buy you again," in context it reads, "I'm saving up so you don't have to live under the bridge anymore," more than "I want to fuck you."
That's your wishful interpretation. Is gonna save 2 cents to get her a place to stay? But let's take a moment and ignore that, and assume that your interpretation is correct.
Even then he's motivated because he expects to get something in return - this is not just out of the goodness of his heart.
For instance, when he rides on his bike which breaks and he drops the cake, which he is implied to want to give to her, he does seem thankful that she's there at the end.
We're obviously not reading the same manga, or you are simply coming up with interpretations that are not in the text. There is not hint that he's there to give her the cake.
The only reason he met her is because he fell. Not convinced?
I didn't come back here to see you again or anything like that.
He doesn't leave the cake either with her. I don't know where you got the idea that his plan was to leave the cake his mother told him to bring home with her.
In context, it's sweet as its framed as someone who is innocent and ignorant of the true ways of the world trying to help in anyway he can but is unable to due to circumstance.
I suggest providing arguments to support this. Because interpretations that do not follow from the manga are not good arguments/
Both something being pathetic and something being immoral are subjective claims
The fact that he's trying to buy the services of some homeless girl is immoral, this is not an opinion, it's a fact, at least going by the current morals in developed countries.
Him not having any balls, being socially inept, weak-willed, trying to take advantage of her, not trying to improve his situation, etc. make him pathetic.
Feel free to argue against these.
what DO you expect him TO do?
To not try to buy her services - if he just wants to help her, he can do that without expecting anything in return and declining any such actions. It's clear that this is not the case.
What else can he do? Study, exercise, try to socialize, grow some balls and a backbone.
He can't make friends because no one wants to associate with him and his own mother is barely even raising him.
Correction - it's because he's not trying. Sure, there will be people that will avoid you for being poor/not liking you/whatever reason, not everybody's the same though.
He never put in effort into this as far as we saw, he just mutters whenever faced with a social interaction, and going to some homeless girl who he can pay for whatever intimacy.
every person around him baring Takashi treats him like garbage and refuses to associate with him.
There's exactly one girl that told Takasaki not to associate with him because he's poor. No one else did anything similar. So your interpretation simply doesn't follow the manga.
Strangers talk about how horrible his mother is in his presence, people give him dirty looks in the street, and other kids harass him.
Yes people gossip about his mother sleeping around, what is your point with that? Please provide a page where other kids "harass" him.
This also ignores that you can have a morally questionable main character or a complex main character that does awful things.
So the MC is a complex character is he? Because he's paying a homeless girl for her services?
He tries to connect to Takashi but he fears being rejected like he is by everyone else. When she tries to talk to him, her friend shuts her down and when they met in this chapter, he runs off because he's scared of what she might think if she founds out he's rumming for loose change.
That's not trying to connect. It's the opposite. Having no balls in not a valid justification. He could have ignored the retarded comment of her friend just fine, and said his greeting, instead he cuts off mid sentence. There's nothing likeable about such a character.
He also is paying the prostitute to have someone to talk to or interact with more than anything, which is something, and probably is the only thing he CAN do as he has no control over anything else.
Talk by groping? It's clear that he wants something more than just talking, in fact he confirms it in the manga.
Additionally, this is not the only thing he CAN do. He can try to actually socialize with his peers, he's just scared - that's on him though.
even if he could, no one would listen.
You have no basis for this statement.
is like telling a depressed person to stop being sad or a homeless person to just buy a house.
That's a false analogy. It is withing his grasp to actually try and socialize, study and exercise. He's just too scared to socialize, and too lazy to study/exercise.
Depressed people may actually have physiological reason why they cannot just "not be sad".
She's the one who assumes he's there for sexual favors. He has never indicated as much.
Except he has confirmed it both verbally and physically. Go and re-read the manga.
why would she buy beer instead of something cheaper?
Beer can be quite cheap (compared to other beverages, even non-alcoholic), and has quite a bit of calories too, so pretty good bang for the buck.
it's a reasonable inference based on what information we have.
Just no. You have no reason to make assumptions, so do not make them. Especially if you plan to use those to support your points. Remember Occam's razor.
The whole beer thing was more on emphasis on their poor financial status if you actually look at what she's doing at that moment (and that is not an assumption -
that is something in the manga, put there specifically by the author). Which is also there to explain why she is sleeping around - the money that she gets from this
was not randomly added in the panel, nor was her sigh just randomly put in before she went to have sex with whoever. You can see that she's always acting very nice
towards her son, the only time her expression changes is when he asks for money, because she's well aware of their poor financial situation. If anything you've been
giving the mother too much crap to somehow try and justify the son's actions.
I reiterated the plot because I needed to in order for my analysis to make sense.
You could have summarized this in a very concise manner. Not to mention that 70% of it was simply not addressing any of the points I had made (I am referring to the post with the retelling).
I'll try and do this at the end of this post, maybe it will clarify what I mean.
There is a lot more going on in terms of subtext, such as how she's always jumping to the assumption that he wants sex first before he ever actually says anything.
There's a good reason for this and he confirms it anyways. I don't know why we are even discussing this seeing as he confirmed it.
If it wasn't for her, he could just find another prostitute he could sleep with if that was what really was his goal
No other prostitute will accept his 20 cents. It will seem like a joke.
It's hard to say for certain as we're only three chapters in, but there's a lot more going on with these two than the surface-level view I think you're taking
That's why I am going off the 3 chapters that we have, without inventing extra facets of the story. You could be right, and this could turn out to be different in chapter 4,5,6.
The point is not to discuss what ifs though, but what's actually there.
I've been trying to source said claims whereas I can only see you asserting them as fact.
The issue is that you make an awful lot of assumptions and refer to things that are simply not in the text, or are even contradictory to the text.
That's why I mentioned Occam's razor.
Him not denying or saying anything doesn't prove that he is complicit in trying to solicit her for sex.
He went there because he heard she is a prostitute, brought money along, and later on even verbally confirmed that he is there to buy her services.
What more evidence do you need? Like seriously. Maybe he is aware he cannot buy sex with his chump change, doesn't change the fact why he went there,
that he's "paying" her while being aware of her situation, and that he later on went to grope her.
Onto the concise summary part. Your comments in general become extremely large (as did mine), with what I see as redundant details or statements that do
not even touch up on the points that I made. To alleviate this I will summarize as concisely as possible the gist of this reply, and I suggest you aim for the same
in your next reply.
Summary:
1. I am not referring to stylistic or writing practices when saying:
There's nothing likeable in this manga as far as I can see.
I specifically mean that it is a manga focusing on some unlikeable character (pathetic and unethical) buying intimacy (mostly through pity) from some homeless girl.
2. You have no good basis for believing that he's clueless about sex/does not know what a prostitute is. The arguments for this (from the text) are:
- is old enough
- has had sex ed
- is jerking off to softcore porn magazine
- understand the remarks of people regarding his mother
If you want to argue this point, please provide arguments from the source material (not assumptions mind you).
3. You argue that he is not there to satisfy his desires. On the contrary my point is that this is the only reason he is there:
- he went there because he learned she is a prostitute
- he pays her for services
- he keeps coming back for more
- he verbally confirmed that he's there to buy her services
- he wanted to grope her
- he did not bring the cake for her as you stated (read the manga)
4. You argue that there's nothing he can do. Instead I argue that he can:
- not accept "services" from the homeless girl if he just wants to help her (he clearly has ulterior motives)
- socialize by not just muttering and talking with people. Most people enjoy telling others about themselves, obviously as long as you try to start the conversation.
- study
- exercise
- grow some balls
I suggest you just address the 4 points to keep it short. Obviously you can address the 104 points above, but I'll just keep it concise for my next reply, so please make sure to
summarize whatever you deem is most important at the end.
