Clarification on rules and moderation
- Thread starter Holo
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@Holo
A scenario to consider: Right now, outside of the most extreme outlier (the Rapeman situation), a scanlator group is essentially being given free reign on what they want to say in their credit page. This could also potentially spill over into the actual manga itself, if someone does a "joke" rewrite - kinda like the April Fool's Day jokes). What is to stop someone from forming their own scanlator group to essentially abuse this freedom by posting Google-translated scans of some manga just to have the ability to attack other? Basically, are you willing to allow people to do this, or is this an abuse?
I think in the end, best we can do is to try and at least keep the especially bad stuff from being posted. Reasonable limits should apply to both the reader's comments, as well as the scanlators. If one group snies another, that is not a problem in itself. But, if the sniping group goes and put obviously deriding comments in the comment page about the other group, beyond the simple "They are too slow"/"Their quality isn't good"/etc, they may have gone too far. I would vote the use of common sense here.
A scenario to consider: Right now, outside of the most extreme outlier (the Rapeman situation), a scanlator group is essentially being given free reign on what they want to say in their credit page. This could also potentially spill over into the actual manga itself, if someone does a "joke" rewrite - kinda like the April Fool's Day jokes). What is to stop someone from forming their own scanlator group to essentially abuse this freedom by posting Google-translated scans of some manga just to have the ability to attack other? Basically, are you willing to allow people to do this, or is this an abuse?
I think in the end, best we can do is to try and at least keep the especially bad stuff from being posted. Reasonable limits should apply to both the reader's comments, as well as the scanlators. If one group snies another, that is not a problem in itself. But, if the sniping group goes and put obviously deriding comments in the comment page about the other group, beyond the simple "They are too slow"/"Their quality isn't good"/etc, they may have gone too far. I would vote the use of common sense here.
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@Hounder This reminds me of an incident we had back in Batoto where some "translator" uploaded a Grand Blue chapter where a character and all his lines were "blocked" (as in, the TL went through the effort of painting him black and putting a lock on top of him and his dialogues) as part of some dumb paywall DLC joke (this was his second upload, the first one was a translation of one of the most important chapters in Ookami Shounen wa Kyou mo Uso o Kasaneru where he had everyone use ghetto speak). This was obviously a joke/troll upload and since it wasn't April's Fools it should have been deleted. It took us like 8 fucking pages worth of discussion (plus a shitton of posts in the comments) to convince the mod handling that issue that the chapter was actually a joke chapter (I'm pretty sure he didn't even bother to read it for like half of that discussion).
So while I think everyone agrees stuff like that shouldn't be allowed, I think the issue comes when the ill will behind a particular upload. A troll TL or one filled with insults clearly shows ill will and thus should be removed, but how do you prove that someone who uploads a Google-translated chapter with a particularly controversial credit page (let's say, one that claims that people who complain about X issue are crybabies) is actually doing it out of ill will and not just because he thinks that Google-translated chapters are a good contribution (as far as I know the rules allow that) and that he is allowed to talk about such issues in credit pages as long as he doesn't directly attack someone or express his ideas in an extremely agressive way? Punishing people for something like that would only lead to even more chaos as one group reports the other and complains that X got taken down while Y was allowed to stay, which proves the staffs are biased towards one side or agree with Y. Common sense sounds goods but sadly a lot of people lack that or their definition of "common sense" might not be the same that the staff has.
Honestly, I think in this case it would be better to cut this issue at the roots and just restrict the contents of a credit page. I know this goes against my belief of freedom for the translations and it's kind of hypocritical of me, but I just feel like this issue causes way too many problems compared to the relatively minor freedom that would be sacrificed if translators were only allowed to put credits, some jokes, some TL notes and maybe some contact/donation info in their credit pages and nothing else (and even then I'm sure people would try to find loopholes).
I don't think people should be censored if they want to share a particular view or even criticize a certain practice but I feel like the credits pages are definitely not the place for that, since there isn't any proper place to discuss the argument and people end up arguing about it in the comment section and causing it to get locked due to off-topic derrailment.
Want to share a particular view or criticize something? Go to the forums. That should be the place where stuff like this should be discussed and people should be allowed to argue as long as they keep it civil. The credits pages weren't meant for this sort of stuff and allowing it clearly only causes issues and leaves no one happy.
So while I think everyone agrees stuff like that shouldn't be allowed, I think the issue comes when the ill will behind a particular upload. A troll TL or one filled with insults clearly shows ill will and thus should be removed, but how do you prove that someone who uploads a Google-translated chapter with a particularly controversial credit page (let's say, one that claims that people who complain about X issue are crybabies) is actually doing it out of ill will and not just because he thinks that Google-translated chapters are a good contribution (as far as I know the rules allow that) and that he is allowed to talk about such issues in credit pages as long as he doesn't directly attack someone or express his ideas in an extremely agressive way? Punishing people for something like that would only lead to even more chaos as one group reports the other and complains that X got taken down while Y was allowed to stay, which proves the staffs are biased towards one side or agree with Y. Common sense sounds goods but sadly a lot of people lack that or their definition of "common sense" might not be the same that the staff has.
Honestly, I think in this case it would be better to cut this issue at the roots and just restrict the contents of a credit page. I know this goes against my belief of freedom for the translations and it's kind of hypocritical of me, but I just feel like this issue causes way too many problems compared to the relatively minor freedom that would be sacrificed if translators were only allowed to put credits, some jokes, some TL notes and maybe some contact/donation info in their credit pages and nothing else (and even then I'm sure people would try to find loopholes).
I don't think people should be censored if they want to share a particular view or even criticize a certain practice but I feel like the credits pages are definitely not the place for that, since there isn't any proper place to discuss the argument and people end up arguing about it in the comment section and causing it to get locked due to off-topic derrailment.
Want to share a particular view or criticize something? Go to the forums. That should be the place where stuff like this should be discussed and people should be allowed to argue as long as they keep it civil. The credits pages weren't meant for this sort of stuff and allowing it clearly only causes issues and leaves no one happy.
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Using their credits page to post offensive (not within community norms) content seems to be a soft standard but I don't think it needs to be strictly defined. Since it is only going to rankle those not interested in the core purpose of this site (deliver fan translations of manga). I do not think the site is going to suffer if actions are taken against those who's actions are not in line with that.
One case of moderation I am not in favor of, is locking comments on a chapter because people were discussing an issue brought up in the chapter. They may have been doing so rudely (ie using terms like slut and incel) but the conversation was still on target (ie discussing issues brought up in the chapter). I don't think that shutting down such conversations are a good thing. If they make you feel bad, you can make them go away in a single click (ie leave the discussion thread).
As far as moderating them, direct attacks against the speaker don't add anything, so moderating them out is fine. And when the conversation drifts to either a totally unrelated topic, or discussing the discussion (as can be seen in this thread a few posts ago), I can see some intervention so the main thread isn't drowned out with irrelevant ramblings/rantings.
I always thought twitter needed an option for people to create blacklists that others could subscribe too. Then those who wanted to be shielded could just put their blinders on and leave the rest alone. Educate and Encourage people where to find and then to use the block button.
One case of moderation I am not in favor of, is locking comments on a chapter because people were discussing an issue brought up in the chapter. They may have been doing so rudely (ie using terms like slut and incel) but the conversation was still on target (ie discussing issues brought up in the chapter). I don't think that shutting down such conversations are a good thing. If they make you feel bad, you can make them go away in a single click (ie leave the discussion thread).
As far as moderating them, direct attacks against the speaker don't add anything, so moderating them out is fine. And when the conversation drifts to either a totally unrelated topic, or discussing the discussion (as can be seen in this thread a few posts ago), I can see some intervention so the main thread isn't drowned out with irrelevant ramblings/rantings.
I always thought twitter needed an option for people to create blacklists that others could subscribe too. Then those who wanted to be shielded could just put their blinders on and leave the rest alone. Educate and Encourage people where to find and then to use the block button.
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As a user of this website who comes to read stuff and check out official links, all I wish is that it continues to function as such.
If credit pages are used for gross violation of the rules (which can cause problems for the website), they should be removed or at least shadow-banned/made optional to view.
I believe that censoring should be done only to accommodate law of the land where it makes sense to do so (viz. removing comments, credit pages, and content which grossly violate the rules is okay, banning series just because some people don't like the content is not).
This website is in legal grey area as it is, I feel the last thing any of the legitimate users want is to invite trouble over someone's (troll or not) distasteful/ill-willed comments.
The neutrality wrt sniping is appreciated.
If credit pages are used for gross violation of the rules (which can cause problems for the website), they should be removed or at least shadow-banned/made optional to view.
I believe that censoring should be done only to accommodate law of the land where it makes sense to do so (viz. removing comments, credit pages, and content which grossly violate the rules is okay, banning series just because some people don't like the content is not).
This website is in legal grey area as it is, I feel the last thing any of the legitimate users want is to invite trouble over someone's (troll or not) distasteful/ill-willed comments.
The neutrality wrt sniping is appreciated.
I do not avidly comment nor read comments, but from what I've seen, things seem mostly appropriate.
Voted option #2 based on that. There were clear times moderation is needed, and they seem to be there when needed most of the time. There has been one or two instances that I cannot specifically recall that didn't seem like it needed moderation where it happened, but alas.
Overall, I say it depends. Keep things relatively loose, because if you really want to cover any and all loopholes, you're going to have a document that is atrociously long. And that will lead to tons of unintentional rule breaking and overworking of moderation, on top of an annoyed userbase for things that shouldn't need a loophole.
Some rules can/should probably be more strongly enforced than others however, especially if it's users going at each other beyond a rational argument/debate. Most people here are here to comment on liking/disliking a chapter for whatever reason, be it the content, quality, etc. If not on the forums itself for whatever discussion happens (which I don't peruse much if at all).
It's simply going to take too long to actually write a ruleset that covers all loopholes, and for the purposes of this site, that is... stupid and time wasting. I do not mean to imply option #3 though, since moderation is a very relative deal.
My comments are mostly related to user conduct as a whole, and when it's negative interactions between users. It's the primary cases I'd seen moderation/ seen seeming overmoderation.
Voted option #2 based on that. There were clear times moderation is needed, and they seem to be there when needed most of the time. There has been one or two instances that I cannot specifically recall that didn't seem like it needed moderation where it happened, but alas.
Overall, I say it depends. Keep things relatively loose, because if you really want to cover any and all loopholes, you're going to have a document that is atrociously long. And that will lead to tons of unintentional rule breaking and overworking of moderation, on top of an annoyed userbase for things that shouldn't need a loophole.
Some rules can/should probably be more strongly enforced than others however, especially if it's users going at each other beyond a rational argument/debate. Most people here are here to comment on liking/disliking a chapter for whatever reason, be it the content, quality, etc. If not on the forums itself for whatever discussion happens (which I don't peruse much if at all).
It's simply going to take too long to actually write a ruleset that covers all loopholes, and for the purposes of this site, that is... stupid and time wasting. I do not mean to imply option #3 though, since moderation is a very relative deal.
My comments are mostly related to user conduct as a whole, and when it's negative interactions between users. It's the primary cases I'd seen moderation/ seen seeming overmoderation.
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@Acolytus I agree, pretty much along the lines of what I am thinking. I believe should be able to have their say and all, but in the situation we are dealing with in MD, there should be some limits, just to keep things basically civil. If it isn't supposed to be allowed in the comments/forums, then a credit page shouldn't be the loophole to just say what you want.
Let's face it, people are going to have issues with one another, as scanlating can be a rather competitive world. But, we can at the very least ask that the parties to try and keep it civil. If they don't like each other, then they can compete by simply trying to have a better job than the other. Heck, sometimes it pays to have different viewpoints on a translation.
Let's face it, people are going to have issues with one another, as scanlating can be a rather competitive world. But, we can at the very least ask that the parties to try and keep it civil. If they don't like each other, then they can compete by simply trying to have a better job than the other. Heck, sometimes it pays to have different viewpoints on a translation.
>Implying sniping is a real thing
>Reiwa 1
Wew lad, nothing quite as 可愛い as pirates making unauthorised translations feeling they have an exclusive licence to the work or some shit.
>muh "/a/nons are shitting up this place"
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as /a/nons or f/a/gs, are in fact, the people scanlating probably half the shit you read in this place, or as I've recently taken to calling them, sc/a/nlators plus f/a/gs. Mangadex is not a scanlating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning EOP support system made useful by the 4chan core boards, shitposting utilities, and vital /a/non components comprising a full scanlating system as defined by Tazmo.
Anyway voted yes, because protection of feels is the most important issue of our generation, and we must not stop until the entire internet is a PG-13 safe space. ¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯
>Reiwa 1
Wew lad, nothing quite as 可愛い as pirates making unauthorised translations feeling they have an exclusive licence to the work or some shit.
>muh "/a/nons are shitting up this place"
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as /a/nons or f/a/gs, are in fact, the people scanlating probably half the shit you read in this place, or as I've recently taken to calling them, sc/a/nlators plus f/a/gs. Mangadex is not a scanlating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning EOP support system made useful by the 4chan core boards, shitposting utilities, and vital /a/non components comprising a full scanlating system as defined by Tazmo.
Anyway voted yes, because protection of feels is the most important issue of our generation, and we must not stop until the entire internet is a PG-13 safe space. ¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯
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@Hounder
Blatant abuse will still lead to removals and/or bans. We have removed unedited Google-TL tier chapters before, because it could be construed as a troll chapter.
Use of this site is a privilege and not a right. We have no problems banning if we deem it necessary. Thankfully 99.99% of scanlators are sensible, reasonable and nice people, and use the site for its intended purposes.
Blatant abuse will still lead to removals and/or bans. We have removed unedited Google-TL tier chapters before, because it could be construed as a troll chapter.
Use of this site is a privilege and not a right. We have no problems banning if we deem it necessary. Thankfully 99.99% of scanlators are sensible, reasonable and nice people, and use the site for its intended purposes.
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@Captaininvictus why do you want censorship? If you dont like something then block the user.
@Rapeman
Wew, 4chan has sure gone to shit in recent years. Seems like /pol/ has infected literally every single board now. While /a/ does scanlate a lot of manga saying that they comprise over half the translated manga available sure sounds delusional at best.
Also greentexting and using le sick 4chan memes outside the containment zone lmao
As for rules, it doesn't take much common sense to weed out the people causing shit from everyone else. I don't think it requires any additional rules, just mods that recognize when someone is intentionally playing around them.
Wew, 4chan has sure gone to shit in recent years. Seems like /pol/ has infected literally every single board now. While /a/ does scanlate a lot of manga saying that they comprise over half the translated manga available sure sounds delusional at best.
Also greentexting and using le sick 4chan memes outside the containment zone lmao
As for rules, it doesn't take much common sense to weed out the people causing shit from everyone else. I don't think it requires any additional rules, just mods that recognize when someone is intentionally playing around them.
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The credits page loophole practically invalidates the rule itself and most egregiously resulted in a few scanlators pulling out. Like Meraki Scans and, of course, hatigarm scans (not sure if there are others that pulled out. I know LeviatanScans pulled a few of their stuff off but thats unrelated). Alongside all the chapters they posted which practically killed the readability of many manga on this site. A site which has only one real purpose: To let people read manga. And it fails at that now due to a loophole and moderators letting this go on.
In my opinion this was handled beyond what one would call awful. At the very least MerakiScans pulling out, which resulted in the loss of all their works, makes MangaDex not exactly the best place to read manga. Simply because many of the stuff they worked on before being one of the best and more interesting manga around. At least in my opinion. Now poof, gone. Go read it elsewhere.
I just believe that if a loophole results in something that quite frankly undermines what the site is built for then there is a pretty big problem that needs to be addressed and not ignored. But that's just me.
In my opinion this was handled beyond what one would call awful. At the very least MerakiScans pulling out, which resulted in the loss of all their works, makes MangaDex not exactly the best place to read manga. Simply because many of the stuff they worked on before being one of the best and more interesting manga around. At least in my opinion. Now poof, gone. Go read it elsewhere.
I just believe that if a loophole results in something that quite frankly undermines what the site is built for then there is a pretty big problem that needs to be addressed and not ignored. But that's just me.
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@rapeman just because someone provides a service doesn't mean they should be able to do or say whatever they want without reprisal, you inflammatory edgelord. I don't know at what age you found 4chan(or worse), but you've clearly been badly damaged by contact with it if you're using syntax and language of it outside of it in normal conversation. you are a textbook example of the type of person who shouldn't be allowed on this website, someone whose group banner is intentionally hateful for laughs, with an instigating muslim image on the left and a literal anti-semitic meme on the right. the cruelty is the point with human refuse like you. @Holo shouldn't let that sort of shit fly, to allow it is to be complicit in it. This is not joshing around with your pals, yours is cutesyfying hate speech on a widespread, open platform.
@evandel hello, racism, misogyny and bigotry shouldn't be tolerated anywhere. blocking someone does not prevent them from spewing their hateful brokebrained shit all over the place. those who never get punished never learn. To say "just ignore them!" does not stop the root of the problem, and allows people with toxic ideologies to preach their shit unfettered.
@evandel hello, racism, misogyny and bigotry shouldn't be tolerated anywhere. blocking someone does not prevent them from spewing their hateful brokebrained shit all over the place. those who never get punished never learn. To say "just ignore them!" does not stop the root of the problem, and allows people with toxic ideologies to preach their shit unfettered.
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@Evandel
Merely blocking people doesn't get you power and an ego boost. Which is all the more telling when they abandon their principals and use the very thing they claim to be fighting for as a weapon.
Make no mistake. This isn't about good intentions. It's about shitty people usurping whatever petty power they can seize.
Merely blocking people doesn't get you power and an ego boost. Which is all the more telling when they abandon their principals and use the very thing they claim to be fighting for as a weapon.
Make no mistake. This isn't about good intentions. It's about shitty people usurping whatever petty power they can seize.
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I haven't run into moderation problems and think it's fine the way it is, but I always enjoy seeing a thread blow up thanks to a troll or two. So far that seems to happen pretty rarely for how big this site has become so tightening the rules would be putting the cart before the horse imo. More moderation will often lead to more drama, so don't do it untill there are actual problems to solve.
I'm also really glad that there is a serious discussion about the rules and specific edge-cases itt, instead of pointing fingers and screaming about how certain people should be banned or unbanned. Shows how none of this is being done blindly and that we should be grateful for the team and community we got. Thanks y'all.
I'm also really glad that there is a serious discussion about the rules and specific edge-cases itt, instead of pointing fingers and screaming about how certain people should be banned or unbanned. Shows how none of this is being done blindly and that we should be grateful for the team and community we got. Thanks y'all.
@kitsuko
It's not just those done by groups with /a/ in their name or /a/nonymous, a shitton of groups at the very least started out on /a/ or /jp/ before sometimes moving to private hosting/IRC/etc.
>Seems like /pol/ has infected literally every single board now
It's called chemo, helps keep the ex-gaia/mal/mangafox migrants away too.
>le sick 4chan memes outside the containment zone
m8 basically all decent memes originate from there before getting bastardised by other sites.
@Captaininvictus
>just because someone provides a service doesn't mean they should be able to do or say whatever they want without reprisal
Actually that's kind of exactly what the western concepts of free speech generally entail m8y. Of course you can lobby to have shit removed from certain private sites like this and whatnot, which will be up to the particular site's admins' discretion, but anyone is free to do whatever they want with something they work on and put onto the internet on their own shitty blog or the like.
But really no one can force you to read anything anyway (such as the shit I do which you seem familiar with), but guess your desire for free mangoes outweighs your desire not to see opinions you don't approve of.
>normal conversation
You're on a Mongolian cave painting rehosting site, if you consider this 'normal conversation' that's pretty depressing tbh fampai.
>shouldn't let that sort of shit fly, to allow it is to be complicit in it
Wew gotta love that classic leftist "you're with us or against us" jihad mentality.
>intentionally hateful for laughs (and the rest of that wall of reee)
Inspiring laughs in the readers with a sense of humour is part of it yeah, but m8 that's not nearly the best part.
It's not just those done by groups with /a/ in their name or /a/nonymous, a shitton of groups at the very least started out on /a/ or /jp/ before sometimes moving to private hosting/IRC/etc.
>Seems like /pol/ has infected literally every single board now
It's called chemo, helps keep the ex-gaia/mal/mangafox migrants away too.
>le sick 4chan memes outside the containment zone
m8 basically all decent memes originate from there before getting bastardised by other sites.
@Captaininvictus
>just because someone provides a service doesn't mean they should be able to do or say whatever they want without reprisal
Actually that's kind of exactly what the western concepts of free speech generally entail m8y. Of course you can lobby to have shit removed from certain private sites like this and whatnot, which will be up to the particular site's admins' discretion, but anyone is free to do whatever they want with something they work on and put onto the internet on their own shitty blog or the like.
But really no one can force you to read anything anyway (such as the shit I do which you seem familiar with), but guess your desire for free mangoes outweighs your desire not to see opinions you don't approve of.
>normal conversation
You're on a Mongolian cave painting rehosting site, if you consider this 'normal conversation' that's pretty depressing tbh fampai.
>shouldn't let that sort of shit fly, to allow it is to be complicit in it
Wew gotta love that classic leftist "you're with us or against us" jihad mentality.
>intentionally hateful for laughs (and the rest of that wall of reee)
Inspiring laughs in the readers with a sense of humour is part of it yeah, but m8 that's not nearly the best part.
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ITT: "What?! I can't say the n word, call people slurs, and generally be an insufferable asswipe? How dare you! This is supposed to be a safe space for me to read manga and complain about why girls that don't like me are all sluts and why people with a different skin color or religion than mine are bad!"
@rapeman
"Actually that's kind of exactly what the western concepts of free speech generally entail m8y"
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." Free Speech (aka, the first amendment) only protects speech (that doesn't incite violence) from government interference and arrest, but not from the court of public opinion and private business refusing to give a platform for speech.
@rapeman
"Actually that's kind of exactly what the western concepts of free speech generally entail m8y"
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." Free Speech (aka, the first amendment) only protects speech (that doesn't incite violence) from government interference and arrest, but not from the court of public opinion and private business refusing to give a platform for speech.
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lul, time for new feature "trigger words" filter. Hopefully client side though, no use loading the web server with that shit.Greasemonkey script or something.
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