Clarification on rules and moderation

[DbHuntzz]

You're blowing this problem way out of proportion. How the hell do you go from a "simple drama" of one group being to much of pussy to accept another one dissing them to discussion on free speech?

The direction of this discussion is getting absurd cause you'd have to inspect the content of every manga as well to keep your argument cosistent. Then you'd have to ban stories that are told through the eyes of a serial killer, or ones that keep trashing the church, or block chapters because someone said "Oh my god! He's a queer!" in the story, or stories that "objectify women" I'm curious to see how you deal with that in manga context, even more so when you're also hosting a lot of hentai just to stay true to the rule that we can't be exposed to the inflamatory .

You only need to keep this platform as neutral as possible and ignore the rest.
Just add a disclaimer "we're not responsible for other people's opinion", it's simpler than using a ton of moderation to decide what people can or can't say in a way that can create a lot of loop holes leading to a report war.

I'd just go back to kissmanga if you start with this crap. Facing the adds is better than getting cancer from the language police

 

[wanko_wanko]

It's kinda sad how the internet has been pussyfied and censored by influx of sjw babies. Pretty much can't even say what you want or god forbid you will hurt feelings of a crybaby with inflated ego. In my opinion moderation should not focus on protecting brittle feelings of mentally unstable people high on imaginary sense of moral high ground and having power to silence other's opinions they don't agree with, but instead focus strictly on eliminating illegal content, and stuff that makes manga unreadable like watermarking or something. Don't like what the person is saying? Block them. Don't like what the group is saying in their credit pages? Don't read them, or better don't read that groups tl at all. If you think censoring is ever justified, then there is something wrong with you.

 

[Blabladodo]

I don't use the forum much but it seems current moderation is fine.
However, you should add one rule:
Ban anyone complaining about hentai or loli.

 

[definitionofinsanity]

@icantnotthink @rapeman
...This was an utterly shit counter-argument from you, icantnotthink.

First of all:

"Actually that's kind of exactly what the western concepts of free speech generally entail m8y"

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." Free Speech (aka, the first amendment) only protects speech (that doesn't incite violence) from government interference and arrest, but not from the court of public opinion and private business refusing to give a platform for speech.

Rapeman is actually entirely correct. He said "western concepts of free speech." No where, not any fucking where, in that equation is there talk from Rapeman about government, laws or the rights of people even. The idea of western-styled free speech open debate marketplace-of-ideas was mentioned. And he's not wrong. That's how it's conceptualized. That's how it works. So... for you to mention "but it only protects you from..." is like seeing an algebra equation and adding 1337speak to it because it seems related. It's not. It's also demonstrably incorrect:

Spoiler

A phone company or your ISP, for example, can't boot you off their "platform" (read: private business service) for saying "bad things." Interestingly enough this USED TO BE AN ISSUE with early phone companies and telegraph companies. Which would boot people off their service because they were "A PRIVATE COMPANY N KAN DO ANYTHING THEY WANT!". The courts and Congress then informed them, "no, motherfuckers, you're a public utility and can not merely boot people off and violate their method of exercising their right to free speech simply because you're a private entity." Much crying happened and now you can utter into your telephone anything you wish and not have your service cancelled for it. (By the way, in one case the Supreme Court even ruled that you are legally able to trespass on private property in order to exercise your freedom and speech and expression. That's legal precedent, my dude.) Just know that the NSA is always listening. Oh, and if you're wondering? Yes, there is talk about tech companies getting the same treatment, rightfully so, today. Granted, I'm dealing with my own cognitive dissonance issues of not liking government intervention and meddling, but at least it's being done to protect Constitutional rights here instead of doing so for personal politics. Although I admit I have personal bias when I want to see the federal government not only degrease but add spikes to the Anti Trust suppository that they might be giving Google. FFS, Microsoft basically got hit with Anti Trust for putting their software on machines through OEM deals. Whereas in some areas Google Fiber is the ISP and/or owner of the internet infrastructure that is used even if they aren't the ones providing it, they have the 2nd(?) most popular browser on Earth that TOOOOTALLY isn't a botnet or sniffer or anything that makes the NSA jealous (lol, joke on you, they get that data anyways through PRISM), control the largest search engine, the largest video sharing site with no direct competitive (BIG FUCKING RED FLAG) and, importantly here, the most used translator on the internet. Oh, and some people still own Chromebooks... for some reason. But Google isn't a monopoly, y'know! They just don't allow competition... and... stifle opponents... I-I-I'm sure it's fine, right?

Worse yet? It's wrong. Papa Rekieta, do you mind explaining to him why this is a shit and wrong argument?
Basically, this is you saying, whether consciously or not, that you're okay and even willing to trade tyranny by the government for tyranny of the group. Or mob mentality/rule, basically.
...Yeah, no. Western government was not established on that basis. Shit, we're even a Republic which is intended to stifle the tyranny of the majority against the rights of the minority. Meaning that wanting to stifle the rights of the minority simply because, at the time, your opinion and "side" is more popular is tyranny. And antithetical to the idea of western democracy (Republics are a form of democracy, it's merely direct/pure democracy that is utter cancer) and freedom.

 

[BestBoy]

@Zephyrus Do y'all plan on holding polls periodically? As the userbase grows the demographics are likely to change and so will the opinion of the rules and moderation.

 

[Zephyrus]

@BestBoy
We try to be as communicative as possible with you folks. And when we consider making policy changes, we always try to see how the community feels about it first. So yes, you'll see the occasional poll from us in the future as we continue to evolve and improve our services. =)

 

[Claresilver47]

My stance on the whole drama is that it was going to inevitably happen.

As far as I'm concerned, this site is like an underground publishing market, groups are allowed to open up their stalls and distribute their wares themselves. Everything in this market is in a legal grey area but isn't considering the goods are of foreign nature that aren't readily available, it's overlooked for the most part. Some stalls even have little donation/tip buckets for the people who are browsing the market. If people wanted to, they can take a business card and visit the group's office themselves so they can see what else they have to offer that has yet to reach the stall. Now some groups see they got a pretty popular stall and let it get to their heads. Some stalls see a small group with the same product who also happen to put up a small sign with a snarky comment about how everyone is currently in an underground publishing market and that you probably should buy the goods from the source directly so the goods will become readily accessible. The larger group then goes we're so popular, we clearly can make the overseers get rid of that sign because this is bad for business and decide to run around screaming how offended they are. Well the overseers don't, because they're literally just there to prevent people from setting fires and making sure things run smoothly, so they instead tell them to shut up. So the group gets angry and close up shop, yank away all their goods and shelves and retreat to their little office. Well this sucks for the market but it'll still continue to run, oh also security sucks because people just walk into their office and use their phones to take pictures of their product which are just lying on a shelf in their office and then take those pictures to other sites.

It's not completely accurate because yes, sometimes the goods aren't that accessible and it do cost a bit of money to get the raws, but at the end it's still a hobbyist thing for the most part. I mean 4chan is STILL translating Kimetsu no Yaiba even though the official translation comes out faster than they can release their translation. Why? Because the group working on it do it because they genially LOVE the manga. Heck, they actively translate a lot of stuff even after it gets an official translation just because the translators love the manga, and due to the fact it's all done anonymously they can't cash in on it. So why are they still doing it even with all of that? The reason is that it's a hobby... also those threads are simply radiating with positivity, seriously they treat their anon translators like saints. That was a long tangent but still, if a group is using the translations for profit, I'd much rather they admit it or at least take it like a champ instead of acting so indignant and defensive.

 

[Holo]

@Claresilver47

I like your analogy, lol

 

[zerimas]

Lol. I made thread suggesting that MD not bother to cater to crybaby scanlators and everyone called me an asshole. Now look at the situation we are in. I guess MD didn't bend over far enough for their liking because now they've fucked off. Seriously, did groups actually expect MD to take down other groups posts?

I am failing to see how putting scanlators first resulted in any benefit. All it has done is create drama. MD went above and beyond to accommodate them.

What bugs me is that MD is still letting them get their way. If they really don't want their shit on your site they can issue a DMCA takedown just like everyone else. Why are you still trying to accommodate them when those groups basically told MD to "go fuck yourself"? Why would they attack what might actually be the only platform that gives a shit about them at all?

I fail to see what is wrong with MD potentially going legitimate anyway. How would it be bad if the original authors were compensated for their work? Wouldn't this be good for manga, as it would be employing the people who actually make manga? Fun fact: manga is actually created by people called mangakas. Scanlators actually don't write or draw manga. If mangakas didn't create manga, scanlators would have to find something else to scan, translate, and then complain about.

But seriously, if MD could go "legit" that would be fine by me. The current model for distributing licensed manga kind of sucks. Tanks are expensive and come out pretty infrequently. Bookwalker does release individual chapters and I believe also simultaneous releases. The problem is you have to use their stupid Bookwalker app. Kobo/Kindle do an OK job but still have to adhere to the release cycle of the physical volumes. There needs to be something both faster and cheaper (for the consumer and the publisher). I am sure plenty of great titles get passed over because it is simply impossible for publisher to even dream of getting their money back because the content is too niche. Obviously it would greatly benefit the author if their "niche" publication could find a wider audience via translation, but I assume there are many reasons why it just isn't feasible. If those at MD think they can make a go of it, by all means please do.

 

[gum_rummy]

I agree with @Acolytus's suggestion of limiting the credit page contents or something like that. There's no such thing as neutrality but I think removing the ambiguity is the best way to go about making things "fair."

Honestly, I like this site because it's generally just a chill place to read manga. I like a lot of groups' credit pages since they can be funny and cute but I gotta say it really puts a damper on the fun when you're reading what appears to be a nice, normal manga chapter and then someone starts degrading an entire race/religion and endorsing genocide and mass shootings. Like, wow, not the time or the place (not that there is one).

Personally I think it would be manageable to implement common-sense rules about not abusing others, but obviously there's always going to be people who act like they're being crucified if they can't say negative things about others. These angry people are everywhere on the internet, and it seems like once they take root on a site they never really leave. And like I said, I don't really believe there's any such thing as neutrality. The environment you create is a product of what you allow. I think letting toxicity fester detracts from the manga/comics, especially when the toxicity is contained in something that's not easily skippable like the credit's page.

Right now I don't think I've seen too many people being wads and it seems like the mods are on top of things but, going forward, I really, really want this to remain a site for MANGA first and not for whatever agendas people feel like they need to push. I think the presentation of the manga should be prioritized over allowing people to insult or belittle their peers or other groups, or promote violence. Most of us here are technically pirates, so the following can be interpreted as a bit hypocritical, but I also feel like it's unfair to the original artists/authors if people use their works to promote malignant views ESPECIALLY when they promote violence. Specifically, I'm thinking about the guy with the credit's page endorsing that mass shooting. That was SUPER out of line, I hope that dude gets help, and I appreciate the mods bothering to remove it, because lots of people wouldn't.

I appreciate mangadex's vibe since it seems like most people on here are civil and I hope that energy can be maintained.