Dekisokonai no Himegimi-tachi - Vol. 3 Ch. 18 - Don't Go
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I like progress in my stories but this is just so exhausting to read. Like, everyone's facial expressions are SUPER INTENSE and everyone talks in the most extreme ways possible. I'm not opposed to drama, and I realize the characters are teenagers, but everyone's reacts like they just saw a child get eaten alive. For example, I think it is understandable for Izumi to be upset when the girl she likes explicitly says she likes another girl. But did we need her shouting at the top of her lungs while dramatic blood splatter effects surround the page? That just looks ridiculous. Or when Nanaki takes Kanade away from the other girls - I get that it was an awkward situation, but Nanaki screaming "Come on Kurokawa!!" at the top of her lungs while holding her hand out, and then having a page of inverted color as Nanaki leads the terrified Kanade away is way too much. It makes me think of "Come with me if you want to live!" from the Terminator, but instead its "Come with me if you don't want to have a mildly awkward conversation with the people you used to be friends with!"
I will reiterate that I am not bothered by either drama or visual flair. I like both if used properly. But you need to have them proportioned to the situation, and this story consistently fails in that respect.
I will reiterate that I am not bothered by either drama or visual flair. I like both if used properly. But you need to have them proportioned to the situation, and this story consistently fails in that respect.
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@mirewitch For some reason, your comment really made me laugh hard! I can’t, even in the scene in Terminator... hahahah. Anyway, yeah, I noticed it too. Here I am always thinking, can’t they just react in simple way? It’s not the end of the world!
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goodnight sweet izumi, youve been a weird hanger on for long enough
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We got the double gay and some drama.
Here we go again.
Here we go again.
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This kind of drama is standard for Japanese because Japanese society in general discourages displays of emotion. I feel like a lot of Westerners don’t realize this, but for women especially, it is common practice to suppress your emotions. In America and Europe, holding hands and kissing in public is socially acceptable. This is not true in Japan. If you are going to a high school and you hold hands on a public train with your partner, the older generation grandpa and grandmas will report you to the school and you can get suspended. And they’ll know what school you go to because Japanese high schools require you to wear your uniform and have your student ID with you at all times outside of school. It’s literally the only outfit you’ll ever wear. Yeah, Japanese society is ultra strict like that.
Add to the fact that being gay/lesbian is also not socially acceptable in Japan, and of course young gay people would be confused about their emotions that they are not supposed to have according to Japanese society. That’s why even in manga with straight relationships, they never say “I love you.” It’s taboo.
And if you are a woman in Japan, you’re basically taught never to have emotions in the first place. There’s a reason why the ideal Japanese woman is submissive, silent, and supports her partner regardless of her own wishes.
Add to the fact that being gay/lesbian is also not socially acceptable in Japan, and of course young gay people would be confused about their emotions that they are not supposed to have according to Japanese society. That’s why even in manga with straight relationships, they never say “I love you.” It’s taboo.
And if you are a woman in Japan, you’re basically taught never to have emotions in the first place. There’s a reason why the ideal Japanese woman is submissive, silent, and supports her partner regardless of her own wishes.
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>This kind of drama is standard for Japanese because Japanese society in general discourages displays of emotion. I feel like a lot of Westerners don’t realize this, but for women especially, it is common practice to suppress your emotions. In America and Europe, holding hands and kissing in public is socially acceptable. This is not true in Japan. If you are going to a high school and you hold hands on a public train with your partner, the older generation grandpa and grandmas will report you to the school and you can get suspended. And they’ll know what school you go to because Japanese high schools require you to wear your uniform and have your student ID with you at all times outside of school. It’s literally the only outfit you’ll ever wear. Yeah, Japanese society is ultra strict like that.
Add to the fact that being gay/lesbian is also not socially acceptable in Japan, and of course young gay people would be confused about their emotions that they are not supposed to have according to Japanese society. That’s why even in manga with straight relationships, they never say “I love you.” It’s taboo.
And if you are a woman in Japan, you’re basically taught never to have emotions in the first place. There’s a reason why the ideal Japanese woman is submissive, silent, and supports her partner regardless of her own wishes.
I think you need to update your sources. And diversify them a little bit this time, so they dont consist exlusively of mango and animu. You guys really do love to live this identity martyrdom by proxy bit too much.
edit: this was particularly stupid. not even silly, just straight forward, brainwashed, cringe stupid. also untrue. my guess is you also have some opinions about things like 'skinship' for example. yuck
Add to the fact that being gay/lesbian is also not socially acceptable in Japan, and of course young gay people would be confused about their emotions that they are not supposed to have according to Japanese society. That’s why even in manga with straight relationships, they never say “I love you.” It’s taboo.
And if you are a woman in Japan, you’re basically taught never to have emotions in the first place. There’s a reason why the ideal Japanese woman is submissive, silent, and supports her partner regardless of her own wishes.
I think you need to update your sources. And diversify them a little bit this time, so they dont consist exlusively of mango and animu. You guys really do love to live this identity martyrdom by proxy bit too much.
edit: this was particularly stupid. not even silly, just straight forward, brainwashed, cringe stupid. also untrue. my guess is you also have some opinions about things like 'skinship' for example. yuck
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>Seriously? Quibbling over uniform regulations aside, are you really doubting the existence of a generalized homophobia in Japanese society? This is very easy to prove, if you'd like...
Overal lolz. Oh well, keep passing your bullshit. It certainly is more emotionally stimulating, and most of you guys do live by and for emotions.
Overal lolz. Oh well, keep passing your bullshit. It certainly is more emotionally stimulating, and most of you guys do live by and for emotions.
Well, I'm certainly emotionally stimulated now, by how funny your incoherent comments are.
What does identity have to do with this? Yuri is mostly aimed at young men, and such fans are generally unlikely to focus on lesbian identity or any sort of "martyrdom". It's pretty safe to assume that most people are reading this because it's (presumably) about romance, and the characters are all cute girls.
Anyway, it's set in Japan, which has a deeper and more widespread homophobia than the US or comparable Western countries (which I'm assuming most readers on this site are from). It makes sense to try and describe that difference if it's relevant. If you think any specific claim is untrue, could you specify which one, and offer contrary evidence?
What does identity have to do with this? Yuri is mostly aimed at young men, and such fans are generally unlikely to focus on lesbian identity or any sort of "martyrdom". It's pretty safe to assume that most people are reading this because it's (presumably) about romance, and the characters are all cute girls.
Anyway, it's set in Japan, which has a deeper and more widespread homophobia than the US or comparable Western countries (which I'm assuming most readers on this site are from). It makes sense to try and describe that difference if it's relevant. If you think any specific claim is untrue, could you specify which one, and offer contrary evidence?
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> Yuri is mostly aimed at young men
Holy shit, now Im laughing. Youre so, so wrong, but even if you were right, thered still be the issue of huge existing gap between targeted demographics and actual audience to resolve. But please, do keep digging yourself.
>Anyway, it's set in Japan, which has a deeper and more widespread homophobia than the US or comparable Western countries (which I'm assuming most readers on this site are from). It makes sense to try and describe that difference if it's relevant.
Again, repeating bullshit wont make it true. It may be fun, but thats about it.
>If you think any specific claim is untrue, could you specify which one, and offer contrary evidence?
1) Devils proof. Consequently, youd said...
2)
So please do. Dont forget about additional constraints youd made for what youre claiming in those embarrassing, incoherent, clearly grounded in 2d fiction rants.
Holy shit, now Im laughing. Youre so, so wrong, but even if you were right, thered still be the issue of huge existing gap between targeted demographics and actual audience to resolve. But please, do keep digging yourself.
>Anyway, it's set in Japan, which has a deeper and more widespread homophobia than the US or comparable Western countries (which I'm assuming most readers on this site are from). It makes sense to try and describe that difference if it's relevant.
Again, repeating bullshit wont make it true. It may be fun, but thats about it.
>If you think any specific claim is untrue, could you specify which one, and offer contrary evidence?
1) Devils proof. Consequently, youd said...
2)
So please do. Dont forget about additional constraints youd made for what youre claiming in those embarrassing, incoherent, clearly grounded in 2d fiction rants.
Certainly, the audience for yuri is not as overwhelmingly male as the yaoi audience is female, and obviously, there are yuri manga that cater to lesbian women specifically, most yuri manga that have been translated into English are male-targeted. It's possible that I might be wrong about the overall consumer demographics in Japan, having a skewed perception from only the Western Internet manga community, but even if that's the case, it would be irrelevant, as Useless Princesses is a Seinen manga, and this is, in fact, the Western Internet manga community.
As to homophobia, of course there are many places where it is vastly worse than in Japan, which has seen some legal progress to more equal rights, and much as in Western countries there are differences in acceptance by age groups, regions, rural-urban divides, etc. You can even elaborate further, if you want, about the different forms that homophobia has taken in different cultures, and whether or not you can directly compare them as "better" or "worse" rather than different, etc. In referring to the West, I was thinking mainly of the experience of most young Westerners living in urban areas, so it was my mistake to overgeneralize in my desire to keep my comment short, as experiences will vary across regions and individuals.
With all that said, it is clear that the practical state of social acceptance of LGBT people in Japan is pretty bad, especially in regards to being in the closet. The person you were responding to may have been overgeneralizing, but the basic ideas--hiding, repressing, staying in the closet, the intense pressure to conform-- are essentially correct. For example, from a 2013 poll cited in this 2017 article: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1550428X.2017.1338172 , "only 5% of Japanese... said that they have a colleague, close friend, or relative who is lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender" (compared to an average 46% across Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Great Britain, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Norway, Poland, South Korea, Spain, Sweden and the United States). 5% of Japanese knowing an LGBT person is implausibly low, considering that studies have found around 7-9% of Japanese people are LGBT, indicating widespread pressure to remain in the closet. This matched the 2017 article's data gathered from Japanese LGBT people on the great difficulty of coming out. I would recommend reading through it, as it provides a more informed and statistically grounded approach to the topic than random Internet commenters can provide.
As to homophobia, of course there are many places where it is vastly worse than in Japan, which has seen some legal progress to more equal rights, and much as in Western countries there are differences in acceptance by age groups, regions, rural-urban divides, etc. You can even elaborate further, if you want, about the different forms that homophobia has taken in different cultures, and whether or not you can directly compare them as "better" or "worse" rather than different, etc. In referring to the West, I was thinking mainly of the experience of most young Westerners living in urban areas, so it was my mistake to overgeneralize in my desire to keep my comment short, as experiences will vary across regions and individuals.
With all that said, it is clear that the practical state of social acceptance of LGBT people in Japan is pretty bad, especially in regards to being in the closet. The person you were responding to may have been overgeneralizing, but the basic ideas--hiding, repressing, staying in the closet, the intense pressure to conform-- are essentially correct. For example, from a 2013 poll cited in this 2017 article: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1550428X.2017.1338172 , "only 5% of Japanese... said that they have a colleague, close friend, or relative who is lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender" (compared to an average 46% across Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Great Britain, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Norway, Poland, South Korea, Spain, Sweden and the United States). 5% of Japanese knowing an LGBT person is implausibly low, considering that studies have found around 7-9% of Japanese people are LGBT, indicating widespread pressure to remain in the closet. This matched the 2017 article's data gathered from Japanese LGBT people on the great difficulty of coming out. I would recommend reading through it, as it provides a more informed and statistically grounded approach to the topic than random Internet commenters can provide.
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Eh.
>Certainly, the audience for yuri is not as overwhelmingly male as the yaoi audience is female, and obviously, there are yuri manga that cater to lesbian women specifically, most yuri manga that have been translated into English are male-targeted.
Again wrong.
> It's possible that I might be wrong about the overall consumer demographics in Japan, having a skewed perception from only the Western Internet manga community, but even if that's the case, it would be irrelevant, as Useless Princesses is a Seinen manga, and this is, in fact, the Western Internet manga community.
Precisely. Guess who reads GL mostly in the west.
>As to homophobia, of course there are many places where it is vastly worse than in Japan, which has seen some legal progress to more equal rights, and much as in Western countries there are differences in acceptance by age groups, regions, rural-urban divides, etc. You can even elaborate further, if you want, about the different forms that homophobia has taken in different cultures, and whether or not you can directly compare them as "better" or "worse" rather than different, etc.
Dude, fuck off. You yourself had proposed those 'ratings', and offered to 'prove' that it is indeed 'worse' there.
>In referring to the West, I was thinking mainly of the experience of most young Westerners living in urban areas, so it was my mistake to overgeneralize in my desire to keep my comment short, as experiences will vary across regions and individuals.
Yes, again you prove your ignorance. Id had maybe been inclined to agree that theres lower tolerance for people not adhering to the norm in the rural areas of Japan, but as far as urban settings are concerned? No dice.
>With all that said, it is clear that the practical state of social acceptance of LGBT people in Japan is pretty bad, especially in regards to being in the closet. The person you were responding to may have been overgeneralizing, but the basic ideas--hiding, repressing, staying in the closet, the intense pressure to conform-- are essentially correct. For example, from a 2013 poll cited in this 2017 article: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1550428X.2017.1338172 , "only 5% of Japanese... said that they have a colleague, close friend, or relative who is lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender" (compared to an average 46% across Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Great Britain, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Norway, Poland, South Korea, Spain, Sweden and the United States). 5% of Japanese knowing an LGBT person is implausibly low, considering that studies have found around 7-9% of Japanese people are LGBT, indicating widespread pressure to remain in the closet. This matched the 2017 article's data gathered from Japanese LGBT people on the great difficulty of coming out. I would recommend reading through it, as it provides a more informed and statistically grounded approach to the topic than random Internet commenters can provide.
1) Yeah, its clear that youd panicked and had to procure something on the fly. That in turn makes remarks like the one on which youd closed on mildly infuriating.
2) Percentages you mention are most certainly wrong. LGBTw(hatever) population is estimated to be at best at the size of 3 to 5% (and that statistics include Bs ; without Bs its less than, or at most 1%). Next there is a 5% figure of Japans population acquainted in some way with people from the community, which is contrasted with whooping 46% for other nations. That number is plain wrong ; forget the math, which makes the realization of such kind of network downright impossible - I know for a fact that for at least two of the mentioned countries the cited 'average' is bullshit. Extrapolating from that, I can safely assume that 'researchers' didnt do their due diligence as far as checking the data is concerned. How did this shit got through peer review?
But hey, lets assume that they are correct. What exactly are you trying to 'prove' with this? How do social clustering and average contact network look like quantity-, and structural-wise in Japan? How do they change when you adjust for big five personality traits? Or population density of an area that subjects lives in? Or cultural customs? Or for degree of intimacy that would warrant 'coming out'. None of these (arbitrarily chosen ; I could easily invent other criteria for meaningful data interpretation) things were factored in there, or even alluded to. Raw numbers themselves mean very little, and alone theyre certainly not enough a proof to draw the kind of conclusion that had been presented in the 'paper'. So, allegedly 5% is socially aware of (at most, but not really) the other 7% in their environment, so what? Thats the worst kind of 'homophobia' you could come up with? Not being able to disclose your sexual orientation to a casual acquaintance?
>Certainly, the audience for yuri is not as overwhelmingly male as the yaoi audience is female, and obviously, there are yuri manga that cater to lesbian women specifically, most yuri manga that have been translated into English are male-targeted.
Again wrong.
> It's possible that I might be wrong about the overall consumer demographics in Japan, having a skewed perception from only the Western Internet manga community, but even if that's the case, it would be irrelevant, as Useless Princesses is a Seinen manga, and this is, in fact, the Western Internet manga community.
Precisely. Guess who reads GL mostly in the west.
>As to homophobia, of course there are many places where it is vastly worse than in Japan, which has seen some legal progress to more equal rights, and much as in Western countries there are differences in acceptance by age groups, regions, rural-urban divides, etc. You can even elaborate further, if you want, about the different forms that homophobia has taken in different cultures, and whether or not you can directly compare them as "better" or "worse" rather than different, etc.
Dude, fuck off. You yourself had proposed those 'ratings', and offered to 'prove' that it is indeed 'worse' there.
>In referring to the West, I was thinking mainly of the experience of most young Westerners living in urban areas, so it was my mistake to overgeneralize in my desire to keep my comment short, as experiences will vary across regions and individuals.
Yes, again you prove your ignorance. Id had maybe been inclined to agree that theres lower tolerance for people not adhering to the norm in the rural areas of Japan, but as far as urban settings are concerned? No dice.
>With all that said, it is clear that the practical state of social acceptance of LGBT people in Japan is pretty bad, especially in regards to being in the closet. The person you were responding to may have been overgeneralizing, but the basic ideas--hiding, repressing, staying in the closet, the intense pressure to conform-- are essentially correct. For example, from a 2013 poll cited in this 2017 article: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1550428X.2017.1338172 , "only 5% of Japanese... said that they have a colleague, close friend, or relative who is lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender" (compared to an average 46% across Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Great Britain, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Norway, Poland, South Korea, Spain, Sweden and the United States). 5% of Japanese knowing an LGBT person is implausibly low, considering that studies have found around 7-9% of Japanese people are LGBT, indicating widespread pressure to remain in the closet. This matched the 2017 article's data gathered from Japanese LGBT people on the great difficulty of coming out. I would recommend reading through it, as it provides a more informed and statistically grounded approach to the topic than random Internet commenters can provide.
1) Yeah, its clear that youd panicked and had to procure something on the fly. That in turn makes remarks like the one on which youd closed on mildly infuriating.
2) Percentages you mention are most certainly wrong. LGBTw(hatever) population is estimated to be at best at the size of 3 to 5% (and that statistics include Bs ; without Bs its less than, or at most 1%). Next there is a 5% figure of Japans population acquainted in some way with people from the community, which is contrasted with whooping 46% for other nations. That number is plain wrong ; forget the math, which makes the realization of such kind of network downright impossible - I know for a fact that for at least two of the mentioned countries the cited 'average' is bullshit. Extrapolating from that, I can safely assume that 'researchers' didnt do their due diligence as far as checking the data is concerned. How did this shit got through peer review?
But hey, lets assume that they are correct. What exactly are you trying to 'prove' with this? How do social clustering and average contact network look like quantity-, and structural-wise in Japan? How do they change when you adjust for big five personality traits? Or population density of an area that subjects lives in? Or cultural customs? Or for degree of intimacy that would warrant 'coming out'. None of these (arbitrarily chosen ; I could easily invent other criteria for meaningful data interpretation) things were factored in there, or even alluded to. Raw numbers themselves mean very little, and alone theyre certainly not enough a proof to draw the kind of conclusion that had been presented in the 'paper'. So, allegedly 5% is socially aware of (at most, but not really) the other 7% in their environment, so what? Thats the worst kind of 'homophobia' you could come up with? Not being able to disclose your sexual orientation to a casual acquaintance?
