Destroy It All And Love Me In Hell! - Vol. 2 Ch. 8 - Because you seem happy

[deathpigeon]

but, for instance, those of who watch anime are getting to see an adaption of I'm in Love with the Villainness where the protagonist is basically sexually harassing the second female lead until she gives in, Bloom into You has a character going along with dating despite not being interested in the person, etc.

In I'm in Love with the Villainess, Rae consistently puts Claire's interests first, actively rejects controlling her or forcing herself on her, and spends the start of their friendship convinced nothing will come of it not pursuing a relationship at all. She multiple times antumpts to help set up Claire with Thane because she knows Claire likes him.

In Bloom Into You, the thing Tōko likes out of Yū is precisely how she doesn't love her and doesn't want to date her. She never controls who Yū interacts with or confines Yū's actions. She does impose her idea of Yū on her, but this is consistently shown to be wrong of her and, in the end, Yū needs to break through this so they can date. It is never presented as romantic.

In this, Kokoro cornered Kurumi when she was in an obviously hurt state, went out of her way to make her feel like she had to date her, and has since focused on controlling and limiting Kurumi however she can so as to preserve the idealized image of her she has.

The way Kokoro is acting is materially different from the examples you gave. It isn't behavior typically seen as romantic, particularly in yuri (it's more common in yaoi), and it certainly isn't normal romantic lead behavior.

 

[Snerkus]

now this is poggers

 

[Mistilteinn]

After this chapter I can only see Kokoro's behavior getting worse, both for being left alone and because I think she saw what happened by the pool from the window and interpreted it through Kokoro-vision. In a way, I think Naoi wants Kokoro to snap to some extent so that Kurumi realizes the more negative aspects of Kokoro's nature. Because in truth, Kurumi going along with Kokoro's delusions is only making them and by extension her behavior worse. However, people can become very unpredictable when pushed into a corner, so Kokoro's reaction could end up being much more than Naoi bargained for.

On the other hand, there's only 2 more chapters in this volume, so it could reach some kind of at least temporary resolution relatively quickly. Plus, with it being almost summer vacation things almost have to resolve, because otherwise Naoi wouldn't have any reason to see Kurumi for the 6 weeks that make up the vacation.

There are two translation errors this chapter that could majorly impact the coming chapters though. After mentioning how Kokoro took a tumble, Naoi was asking Kurumi if it was okay to have left her "girlfriend/lover" behind like that. And then after saying that Kurumi agrees to bothersome things, it said that Kurumi would even go so far as to become someone's "girlfriend/lover". Which means Kurumi now knows that Naoi knows about her dating Kokoro and the real reason for that. Given both Kokoro and Kurumi's reactions in their conversations with Naoi this chapter, I think the relationship was supposed to be a secret that Kokoro may have broken a promise to in order to try to get Naoi to back down. How will Kurumi react to that? She likely doesn't want her mom or classmates to know.

And then there's Isanuma. The desk from chapter 3 is back and could very well be discovered this time. It's possible there was some identifying mark on the desk that Isanuma could recognize during the cleaning and go to confront Kurumi about it, because whenever something happens Isanuma doesn't like, she blames Kurumi regardless of if there's any logical reason to.

 

[Eukene]

In I'm in Love with the Villainess, Rae consistently puts Claire's interests first, actively rejects controlling her or forcing herself on her, and spends the start of their friendship convinced nothing will come of it not pursuing a relationship at all. She multiple times antumpts to help set up Claire with Thane because she knows Claire likes him.

In Bloom Into You, the thing Tōko likes out of Yū is precisely how she doesn't love her and doesn't want to date her. She never controls who Yū interacts with or confines Yū's actions. She does impose her idea of Yū on her, but this is consistently shown to be wrong of her and, in the end, Yū needs to break through this so they can date. It is never presented as romantic.

In this, Kokoro cornered Kurumi when she was in an obviously hurt state, went out of her way to make her feel like she had to date her, and has since focused on controlling and limiting Kurumi however she can so as to preserve the idealized image of her she has.

The way Kokoro is acting is materially different from the examples you gave. It isn't behavior typically seen as romantic, particularly in yuri (it's more common in yaoi), and it certainly isn't normal romantic lead behavior.

My argument has been that Kokoro's character is written to believe she is doing all these nurturing things and Kokoro's choices could be made to seem to be doing those things with different framing, not that she is actually 100% the same as those characters and there is no difference between any of the various very different characters.

Also, you acknowledge these characters flaws to some extent - this means being like a yuri protagonist in a romantic story (eg most people do see Bloom Into You as a romance) doesn't mean being flawless. Especially when we are only 8 chapters in (when these other characters had not resolved their flaws and we hadn't gotten to see if they were really going to prioritize the other person long term), the framing of the story is basically what leads to us see the the flaw as acceptable or unacceptable, more than the isolated behavior or personality traits.

Finally, Kokoro isn't real. She is not actually doing anything at all. We have an impression because of the panels the author shows us. The character of Kokoro is written to have a different impression based on her information, life experience, and personality where her choices appear more like those other characters and less like a domestic abuser, ie, a different framing of those choices that allow her to see herself as heroic.

 

[deathpigeon]

The character of Kokoro is written to have a different impression based on her information, life experience, and personality where her choices appear more like those other characters and less like a domestic abuser, ie, a different framing of those choices that allow her to see herself as heroic.

See, this is where you majorly lose us. Kokoro looks exactly like a lot of domestic abusers and isn't all that reminiscent of those other characters. We've seen abusers just like her, ones who don't raise a hand against the one they abuse, but simply make saying 'no' feel bad and scary. She's simply engaging in fairly typical abuser behavior.

She's treating Kurumi's boundaries as not for her to decide, she's treating Kurumi's agency as secondary to herself, she's intentionally working to isolate Kurumi from people who could break her out of things, and she's developing a feeling of dependence on her in Kurumi.

These aren't framing away from being a typical yuri protagonist. No mattec the framing, this is simply abuse. She is a domestic abuser and not a particularly atypical one.

 

[Eukene]

I feel like you are making this overly personal. I am responding to you, not "us". You are phrasing this like your opinion is the natural result someone who has experienced relationship abuse would have, without asking if I have ever experienced it myself. Therefore I am feeling pretty uncomfortable, so this will be last response. Still, feel free to respond again if you want to though, as I am not trying to get the last word in or anything.

I could easily argue that Rae is reminiscent of an abuser because she repeatedly inserts herself into Claire's life and makes unwanted romantic and sexual comments, especially near the beginning of the story. I could also argue that the story's attempt to redeem the character with "actually she is a nice guy and always prioritizes Claire" is the type of framing that allows irl abusers to justify ignoring someone's discomfort, as they believe the person will change their mind once the see how nice and loving they are.

(Okay, full disclosure, that's actually my real opinion. I felt super uncomfortable at various times while reading that one, even though I am a fan of the series.)

On the other hand, in many stories, promising to love and protect someone while that person is at their lowest point happens, "you can do it if you want to" is tsundere for yes and not meant as a sign that the MC should leave them alone, etc. These would almost always be harmful choices in the real world, regardless of how nice and loving someone is internally, but in fiction these choices are often set up to have a different kind of impact.

In any case, I have never argued that Kokoro's behavior would be justified either in the story or real life. If anything, she is shaping up to the be principal antagonist of the next arc. Therefore I have been fairly confused by you seeming to want to convince me that the behavior is harmful, given that's something I never questioned.

Since I won't be responding more about this in this thread, I will also apologize in advance if I have misunderstood anything about what you are saying or your motivations. My hope is that, after reading this thread, you will be having a nice Thanksgiving, if that's something you observe.

 

[ShaneARang]

After this chapter I can only see Kokoro's behavior getting worse, both for being left alone and because I think she saw what happened by the pool from the window and interpreted it through Kokoro-vision. In a way, I think Naoi wants Kokoro to snap to some extent so that Kurumi realizes the more negative aspects of Kokoro's nature. Because in truth, Kurumi going along with Kokoro's delusions is only making them and by extension her behavior worse. However, people can become very unpredictable when pushed into a corner, so Kokoro's reaction could end up being much more than Naoi bargained for.

On the other hand, there's only 2 more chapters in this volume, so it could reach some kind of at least temporary resolution relatively quickly. Plus, with it being almost summer vacation things almost have to resolve, because otherwise Naoi wouldn't have any reason to see Kurumi for the 6 weeks that make up the vacation.

There are two translation errors this chapter that could majorly impact the coming chapters though. After mentioning how Kokoro took a tumble, Naoi was asking Kurumi if it was okay to have left her "girlfriend/lover" behind like that. And then after saying that Kurumi agrees to bothersome things, it said that Kurumi would even go so far as to become someone's "girlfriend/lover". Which means Kurumi now knows that Naoi knows about her dating Kokoro and the real reason for that. Given both Kokoro and Kurumi's reactions in their conversations with Naoi this chapter, I think the relationship was supposed to be a secret that Kokoro may have broken a promise to in order to try to get Naoi to back down. How will Kurumi react to that? She likely doesn't want her mom or classmates to know.

And then there's Isanuma. The desk from chapter 3 is back and could very well be discovered this time. It's possible there was some identifying mark on the desk that Isanuma could recognize during the cleaning and go to confront Kurumi about it, because whenever something happens Isanuma doesn't like, she blames Kurumi regardless of if there's any logical reason to.

ACK You’re super right I can’t fucking read apparently 🙇‍♀️

Fixed it. My sincere apologies all.

 

[deathpigeon]

Therefore I have been fairly confused by you seeming to want to convince me that the behavior is harmful, given that's something I never questioned.

The thing you've been arguing and which we've been arguing against was the bizarre proposition that Kokoro's behavior is in lone with a typical yuri protagonist. Something you've done by treating the abusive actions Kokoro has engaged in as not particularly reminiscent of abusers ("her choices appear more like those other characters and less like a domestic abuser") combined with bizarre readings of other yuri that read the main characters as abusers through making shit up about them, like pretending like Rae ever forces herself upon Claire.

It's clear you think Kokoro's behavior is harmful, but it's also clear you view other yuri protagonist's in a weird light that allows you to conflate their actions with abuse like what Kokoro is engaging in,

 

[Mistilteinn]

I thought of something after awhile. It seemed like Kokoro was going to be the only antagonist of the volume, but now chapter 3 out of 5 ends in such a way to have Isunuma also take that role. There was also that small scene of the teacher in his office being kind of irritable with "Tch".

I wonder if the story is going the route of having all the characters have hidden sides to them. The teacher is dumping alot of his extra tasks on Kurumi and is angry that she failed to complete the latest one how he wanted. It seems like he plans to try again, but then it's summer break and it'd likely need to be done in a rush, especially since Kurumi pointed out that those surveys were supposed to have been completed way before now. Maybe Isanuma will become disllusioned with him.

There also seems to be something up with Isanuma's friends. The tall one seems like a nice girl that realizes Isanuma's growing anger at Kurumi could be dangerous. The shorter girl though, seems like she's trying to get Isanuma mad at Kurumi intentionally. Like she thinks it's funny. Or maybe she likes Isanuma and enjoys seeing her worked up. But it's still dangerous to encourage someone to get into fights with other people.

There's also the possibility that Kurumi is the first to drop the facade and then everyone else follows suit in response to her showing her true self. Kokoro could withdraw, or become very spiteful. Similar to certain infamous idol otaku who become disillusioned with their favorite idol. Obsession can quickly turn to hatred in certain circumstances.

 

[WolfenLady]

Me after reading this chapter: 😐 💊🤦🏽‍♀️

 

[enstoblue]

Grab the yuri hime issue if you have the means! I have to have surgery in December so I might not have next month's chapter done until January. There's still some vol 1 extras I'm trying to knock out, but I haven't been able to get the extra booklet bonus chapter that came with the melon books preorder cause i was SLOW ON THE DRAW and they sold out so if you happen to have a raw of that lemme know okay happy turkey month

hope your surgery goes well! thank you for the chapter

 

[enstoblue]

Ah, my (2nd) favorite toxic yuri manga is finally here.
Thank you for the update!

whats your (1st) fav?

 

[enstoblue]

Yeah just meekly going along with it. But I'm sure Naoi liked that she lashed out and dunked them both in the pool.

rather than meekly i feel like shes just too tired to care

 

[Syapaaye]

whats your (1st) fav?

why, it's the ever so (in)famous KitaKawa, of course!