Fight Class 3 - Vol. 7 Ch. 46 - Round 46: Kang Yuri – Part 2

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@Sigilbreaker26
True enough, but my idea is that if Maria knew about Dae-gak bein in Fight Class 3, its possible those Masters did too. If they did know, and since they're so close to his mother, I don't see any reason for them to not want to teach Jiu-tae if he were to come to them for information about Dae-gak. Jiu-tae's been searching for his sister for 6ish years, and he never went to ask those masters if they knew where his father was? I get a feeling that if those masters's knew about the Fight Class 3-Dae-gak connection they could have told Jiu-tae "you have to be one of the best martial artists in Korea to get into that class" or something like that, and then either teach Jiu-tae or tell him to give up. If something like this were to happen, I doubt Jiu-tae would have just sat back and did nothing, might have started training on his own or something? Idk, this is turning into some weird fanfiction mess lol, but its just something that's been bothering me.

EDIT: Basically, what I'm getting at is that between his sister's kidnapping and meeting Maria, there's potential for Jiu-tae to already have motivation to enter the fight classes if he meets with those masters. Of course there's a lot of scenarios that would prevent Jiu-tae from learning about Dae-gak and Fight Class 3 before meeting Maria, but as is its a question that bothers me.
 
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@Amegashi

The one problem with that is all of that hinges on Dae-Gak running Fight Class 3 (or whatever role he serves in it) for the past seven years at least as opposed to beginning after kidnapping the sister *and* the masters knowing about it *and* them not just getting iced by Dae-Gak after he knocked out Ji-Tae. They didn't even know Dae-Gak was in town when he suddenly showed up.

Even if they did, their first thought would probably not be "prepare his child as a tykebomb so he can rescue his sister in 7 years", they would either go in themselves or more likely try and get the police involved somehow. So I believe they didn't know about FC3, or that DG simply wasn't running FC3 yet, or that DG was running it at that point, they did know, and he killed them at the funeral. There is the potential for a plot hole here but I don't think there is going to be one because it requires certain knowledge to be given to pretty minor characters who haven't appeared since the first chapter.
 
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@SigilBreaker26

There’s a lot of issues with the idea, like even if the masters were alive they could have hid the truth from Jiu-tae. The main idea is that it kind of look like Jiu-taes mom has connection with martial art “royalty” and that gives potential for Jiu to know how to fight before meeting Maria. There’s a lot of ways to explain why he never learnt to fight but as is will just have to wait and see if it’s ever explained.
 
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@SigilBreaker26
@Amegashi
Honestly, i just assumed the other mastered would want nothing to do with opposing the monster of a man that the MC's father was
That or they fully believe that jiu -tae's father was well versed enough in martial arts to know when his own son isn't special but the VERY clear bias the dude had for his daughter blinded him to a different option.
I can also see his mom or those other masters pulling a Chi Chi and keeping him away from fighting so he doesn't get sucked into this madness. Honestly the other has plenty of ways to answer this and not getting answers right away while world-building/lore is established seems ok for me. Cuz honestly, I never NEEDED the MC to make me interested in reading when the world is already this cool and the cast this interesting. With how bland the personality of this MC is that goes double for this story

@Amegashi
"there's actually a really simple way to do this. Have him lose. A lot."
Until readers start bitching about the MC losing too much and wanting to see more of other characters.
Then u get the classic complaint of "Wtf, why is this MC so OP now after losing so many times? What a fuckin asspull!"
Honestly, no matter what path this story takes people are gonna be mad and some will drop it
Which sucks cuz your solution is actually a pretty damn good one at that and I hope the writer implements that soon
Cuz with how basic the MC is now he NEEDS the development
 
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@OtakuDragonSlayer
We can actually assume anything, since its something that's not been elaborated on and, though relatively minor, can be a potential plot hole if left unexplained; which is why the topic bothered me.

Its possible his mom did try to protect him from entering Martial Arts, I think that's been hinted at, but it still seems weird that none of the martial artists his mother knew decided to take care of Jiu-tae, at least financially? Maybe his current residence is related to those masters? I'm not sure, but it seems weird that he's kind of just scraping by, even having a after school job and searching for his sister alone (which looks like he preferred it that way, but I mean probably more efficient to ask people who may know Dae-gak).

If you write the development well enough you won't get that many complaints about the MC losing, and then becoming OP after losing so much, but its possible which is why you need the author's writing ability to prevent this situation from happening (Hajime-no-ippo, Ballroom e Youkoso, etc.). If you write the development to be interesting, then people will complain less. Of course people are going to not like some part of the story, that's life, but the idea is that if you're a great writer the amount of praise vs complaints will be in the former's favor, but yea so far it seems like the author is going a different route. Which is fine, he can do whatever he wants, doesn't stop people from voicing their issues.

We have differing opinions on the MC vs the side characters, which is fine, I'm glad people like the side characters more than the MC. I just happen to prefer the MC's development, and seeing him improve to side characters who are mostly not important outside of like 5 of them. The character designs in this story are very good though, so I can see the appeal.
 
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@Amegashi


I don't really think ippo is a good example of a main character who loses a lot and becomes OP later on. He literally beats up people who've boxed their entire lives.

Even when the development is good and makes sense you still got a large number of people complaining. Then there's the fact we can't exactly expect every writer to be on horikoshi's level. Cuz juggling a large cast and large world has never really been depicted as "easy". Which is why I really have no problem with sidelining the main character for a bit to flesh out the world and other characters because at the end of the day we all know it's going to be the MC who runs the show inevitably and most likely indefinitely like almost always. Might as well build a good foundation for the show when he does. Cuz right now, his personality and overall character are just really barebones. The only thing really interesting about the MC is the plot surrounding his past but not really he himself.
 
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@0takuDragonSlayer

Ippo loses his first sparring match but shows great heart, no? That’s what I was getting at. You can develop the main character through losing.

Regardless if Horikoshi, is a good writer, my point in bringing him up was to show that it’s possible to keep focus on your main character while sprinkling in side developments. To be honest, if a writer has significant issues juggling a large cast, they should avoid writing large casts for their stories.

We have differing opinions on the set up, which is fine. I don’t find the side characters developments to be that interesting cause a lot of it is filler, I am confused about one thing in what you’ve said. If the main character is really barebones and boring, isn’t that actually more reason to flesh him out and improve his characterization?

EDIT: What seems to be going on in this discussion is that we've both identified that Jiu-tae lacks significant development, we just disagree on the best way to proceed which is perfectly fine.
 
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@Amegashi
Oh i thought u meant have the MC lose like 10 times in a row or something when u said "Make him lose. A lot." Kinda like whats going on with Satoru in that other boxing manga
 
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@Amegashi

Yeah i honestly agree with the cast issue. You can usually tell who can and can't juggle them yet(or never plan to) from the first 10 to 20 chapters

Yes, 100% more of a reason to development him. However, I don't want the MC being a plot or development vacuum where nothing happens without them being there. Which i like here cuz we get to see early signs of which supporting characters may or may not become big players in future plot. Cuz we both know the MC and his stoic partner in crime aren't gonna pull this off alone. If we can have development for the MC without pulling a Toriyama and telling other characters to "piss off" I'm on board. I however just get behind a story when its the MC's world everyone else i just living in it. Which is something I'm happy to see this writer avoided . . . so far.

What are the several steps you'd take to help the MC develop as a not just a fighter but character?
 
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@0takuDragonSlayer

This kind of gets into "fanfiction" territory so forgive me if I inject my biases into these statements, but some steps I think that would help to develop Jiu-tae's character would be:

1.) Make Jiu-tae a more active character. So far events happen to Jiu-tae, he doesn't initiate events. Most of the narrative drive comes from Maria, which strengthens her character, but it adds to your point about Jiu-tae being bare bones and boring. He doesn't initiate any narrative action. When his friend, Ok-dong, is getting beat up, Jiu-tae only learns about it by chance before he takes action. There's multiple ways to rewrite this event so that Jiu-tae is an active participant here. For example, while eating/hanging out with Ji-eun and Ok-dong, Jiu-tae notices that Ok-dong is acting strange, or has a bruise, anything really. How does Jiu-tae respond here? Does he ignore it? Does he press Ok-dong? Does he "tail" Ok-dong to see what's going on? All three (and there are way more potential options here) of these choices would reveal something about Jiu-tae's character, it would show how strongly he cares (or doesn't) for his friends, and by extension, his family and we would learn how important it is for him to find his sister. If he cares this much about his friends (assuming he doesn't ignore Ok-dong's suspiciousness), then by extension he cares for his sister way more.

2.) Actually showcase how far Jiu-tae is from his sister by demonstrating how far down the Fight Class rung he actually is. As is, its really hard to get a grasp of how good Jiu-tae is at MMA for two reasons. One he's had about three serious fights in 47 chapters, and two, because his very first opponent was one of the best 16 fighters in his entire year, Tae-young, and he took her to 3 rounds. Despite Jiu-tae only have a month of MMA experience, he's clearly special. I think the tournament structure could have been changed to showcase how much work Jiu-tae actually needs to do to reach his sister. For example, if in his first fight he fights Fighter D, and loses (it can be a stomp or w/e might not be important), and then in the next round Fighter D loses to Fighter C, and then Fighter C to Fighter B, and Fighter B to Fighter A (Shin Ha-min most likely) we learn more about Jiu-tae's current skill level. This setup immediately establishes rank (A > B > C > D > Jiu-tae) and visually shows that Jiu-tae's got alotta work to do. Currently, he fought one of the best fighters in Korea, took her to the "limit", and then conveniently got cracked ribs so he couldn't fight anymore which is just a really strange decision. This doesn't give us any visual basis for Jiu-tae's skill as is, and it prevents further development for Jiu-tae because when we're considering story depth, a fight scene isn't really a fight scene, its a clash of characters, in the ideological sense.

3.) Use the fights to develop Jiu-tae's character. Test Jiu-tae through the battles, "how badly do you want to find your sister?" Show us the answer to this question with conflict. MMA is brutal, and it can be used to showcase Jiu-tae's will if, during the fights, he's questioning himself as to why he's going through all this pain. We see this in chapter 8 when Kim Dong-won knocks him out, but 8 chapters later we get this scene, where he takes a step back. Through the fights Jiu-tae's character can be developed, like against the guy who bullied him, Jang Chun-soo. I get why the author had Shin Ha-min beat him, but it would have been better for Jiu-tae's character if he fought Jang Chun-soo, and Jiu-tae had to confront his own weaknesses in that situation, regardless of the outcome. Would help reveal his character.

4.) Have Jiu-tae interact more with his supporting character and introduce more supporting characters. Within the story, the only characters Jiu-tae has consistently interacted with are Maria, Ji-eun, Ok-dong, Sa-rang (though we haven't really seen them have much of a conversation), and only his interactions with Maria significantly develop his character. A pretty good tool in creative writing is character maps. The basic idea of a character map is that, before you write the story, you try to map out all the characters in the story and you relate them to the main character, and use these relations to reveal aspects of the main character's personality, and issues. I've actually written a series of essays about this subject with Ballroom e Youkoso on Reddit, but for the sake of brevity I'll just say, in that manga all of the characters introduced relate to some aspect of the main character's goals and highlight his personality issues, and key characters constantly challenge the main character to do better. For Jiu-tae, he needs more impactful interactions with other character. For example, Ji-eun could constantly question why Jiu-tae is in the fight classes, which can cause him to question the point of what he's doing, and if his sister is worth it. There could even be a scene where he gets crushed in a fight, and starts heavily second guessing everything with Ji-eun supporting that decision until finally recommitting to finding his sister. Jiu-tae doesn't have much of this going on for him, and it adds to your point about him being boring. Another thing that's weird for me is that, in a class of 16,17 (?) people, Jiu-tae has had minimal interactions with any of his classmates on a character level. I can see the purpose here, to show that he's an outsider, but it feels off to me, but this might just be an off shoot of his lack of significant character interactions outside of his classmates. If his interactions with Maria, Ji-eun, and Ok-dong, were stronger, its possible this wouldn't feel weird to me, but idk bro.

These are just some ideas that would help develop Jiue-tae as a character.

EDIT: Yea, I with the Hajime example I meant to showcase the idea that you can show character growth in defeat, I didn't mean to insinuate that Ippo constantly loses. Because fights are actually story events, its important for the author to use those fights to showcase character development, and even in defeat a lot can be learned about a character.
 
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@Amegashi
sorry for the super late reply
But yeah, that sounds like a good fix although with the story has been going it doesn't look like thats gonna happen
 
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@0takuDragonSlayer
Ha ha no problem. I don't think the story is going that approach, but it does seem like the main characters are going to get more focus soon so that's really good.
 
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@0takudragonslayer
I don’t think its wrong to prefer characters over the main character. I just think it’ll be hard for the story to progress if the mc gets no development, considering how the premise was laid out.
 
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@Amegashi

That's fair but if we're going to focus on this premise and join him on this journey the writer really does need to get to work on making him a better character. Cuz so far The Supporting Cast is far more appealing
 
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@0takuDragonSlayer
Right now I think Maria is the most interesting character. All the other characters just feel like add-ins, in a slice of life style way. I agree though, Jiu-tae needs to be a better character for the story to get better.
 

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