Harapeko Oyako to Motokare Yanushi - Ch. 5

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Look, I've put in the effort telling people the same thing, but it feels way longer than 5 chapters, and some very important questions aren't just being left unanswered, but not even acknowledged.
I guess you hated Summertime Render because everything wasn't explained up front.
 
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People hare read this manga... because they know or had the deal with someone like her... and you can see that she is looking for a father for her daughter or worst, some loser to take care of her, she knows this dude still likes her, ain't no way she doesn't.

People that don't undestand this had a really privileged life and I only hope you never have to deal with someone like her a fucking leech, because she will suck you dry.

Let's hate read this to the moon and have good moments father and daughter.
 
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It's because she committed the #1 cardinal sin that any female character can commit: she broke up with the MC (in the backstory). The last thing any lonely male nerd who reads manga romcoms wants is to feel rejected.
Dude, I don't think you ever lived in real life... it has nothing to do with this.
 
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Taiga will not survive in this era where most people already move on from violent tsundere heroine.

I think it's because of her children. It has been ingrained in our generation(reader) that children are considered huge burden(which is true), when this combine with her circumstance of her coming back to him result in the severity of her issues multiply by a lot.
Good for her for having mc as her ex tho. I think if I were mc I will demand full explanation of her circumstance before I let her stay for an extensive period of time.
Is not because of her children... she Cleary is trying to live there forever... that is what is making people mad.

You can help people, but what she is doing is bad, he needs to push her out to find her own place because he noticed that if he doesn't, she will never leave.

This was the real trigger for the hate for the manga.
 
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Man, a mid 30 woman with one daugther is perfectly normal. I don't get the hate, it's not like she fked +100 guys nor she cheated on the MC nor she was teenage mom... and like some people said, she is even working... chill dude, we need to see the whole picture first
It started in chapter 3... is because the guy needed to push her to get the fuck out of the house... all the hate comes from this, ok to help someone you know... it doesn't matter if she has a daughter, the problem is that she is literally trying to live there forever. And majority of guys don't like it at all.

Is super simple, I don't know what is all of the confusion. Is just too real for alot of dudes having someone trying to take advantage of your kindness even if he was alone and shit.
 
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I guess you hated Summertime Render because everything wasn't explained up front.
I guess you hated Tokyo Akazukin because I can also namedrop random stuff that others never heard of with zero context. Don't read that btw, you have been warned.
Maybe this will read better once it's finished, but getting these drops of nothing over months is boring as sin. If you need 20 chapters of setup before the dude starts asking the obvious questions, that's on you.
 
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He is sucked DRY NOW. He is eating his budget for a week in 5 days!
People hare read this manga... because they know or had the deal with someone like her... and you can see that she is looking for a father for her daughter or worst, some loser to take care of her, she knows this dude still likes her, ain't no way she doesn't.


People that don't undestand this had a really privileged life and I only hope you never have to deal with someone like her a fucking leech, because she will suck you dry.

Let's hate read this to the moon and have good moments father and daughter.
 
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I guess you hated Tokyo Akazukin because I can also namedrop random stuff that others never heard of with zero context. Don't read that btw, you have been warned.
...
Not to argue, but just pointing out that Summertime Render is hardly something that others have never heard of. The manga has a MAL rating of 8.21 with 15,911 scores (#416) and the anime has a MAL rating of 8.48 with 234,939 scores (#142).
 
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Not to argue, but just pointing out that Summertime Render is hardly something that others have never heard of. The manga has a MAL rating of 8.21 with 15,911 scores (#416) and the anime has a MAL rating of 8.48 with 234,939 scores (#142).
Well I never heard of it, and neither have billions of other people, what's your point? I could bring up multiple examples of better paced manga with hate readers just like this one has, and their whining about a character being a shitty person is as meaningless there as it is here, doesn't change the fact that this manga is taking its time, at least in terms of real time.
 
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It started in chapter 3... is because the guy needed to push her to get the fuck out of the house... all the hate comes from this, ok to help someone you know... it doesn't matter if she has a daughter, the problem is that she is literally trying to live there forever. And majority of guys don't like it at all.

Is super simple, I don't know what is all of the confusion. Is just too real for alot of dudes having someone trying to take advantage of your kindness even if he was alone and shit.
Chapter 3 also starts with stating that she has a job. People are still calling her a leach and saying that she's "sucking him dry", despite the fact that she's clearly making her own money.

People are confused because y'all are projecting your trust issues onto a manga that's clearly not going in that direction. The big twist that it's clearly leading up to is that she's still into him as well

Yes, she lied about her circumstances. That's the only thing she's actually done so far & the reason is most likely because she was too embarrassed to admit that she couldn't handle raising her daughter on her own. Let's be honest. If she showed up with the full sob story & said that she came back because she was hoping to get back together, she would have seemed even MORE suspicious than the mundane lie she told
 
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Chapter 3 also starts with stating that she has a job. People are still calling her a leach and saying that she's "sucking him dry", despite the fact that she's clearly making her own money.

People are confused because y'all are projecting your trust issues onto a manga that's clearly not going in that direction. The big twist that it's clearly leading up to is that she's still into him as well

Yes, she lied about her circumstances. That's the only thing she's actually done so far & the reason is most likely because she was too embarrassed to admit that she couldn't handle raising her daughter on her own. Let's be honest. If she showed up with the full sob story & said that she came back because she was hoping to get back together, she would have seemed even MORE suspicious than the mundane lie she told

While I can't speak for others, it's obvious that there are problems here: the fact that she works doesn't mean she is paying him back, for example, as that possibility has never been brought up, as far as I remember.

As for thinking that this is all in the readers' head, just check back to chapter 3, where the protagonist's friend asks him at least some of the questions others have posed here in the thread, and raised some of the same doubts. This shows that the author is aware that the situation is not normal, and would be in fact worrisome to any external observer (and especially ones who care about the protagonist).
The protagonist doesn't really say anything to ease his friend's worries, and admits to himself (and so to us, the readers) that it would be fine even if he was tricked. It's all the more frustrating because there are dozens of ways to make this story more sensible, but the author isn't doing anything to make Kyou look like a decent person.

Finally, if you think she really has gone to him specifically for help raising a kid that isn't his after 17 years of no contact at all, I don't know how you can say she is a good person. This is like saying she never managed to develop a human relationship in the last 17 years, if he is first on the list, and lying about it would be an atrocious thing to do.

Now if you want a list of things the author could have done to make this better (assuming they want to play this straight, and this is just meant to be a wholesome reunion story):

They don't meet inside his damn backyard as she is sneaking in. Instead, he is getting out of his house, and eventually notices her looking nostalgically toward the house, maybe she is teary. He recognizes her, and she snaps out of it. They talk for a while, and she explains that her house has burned down, and so she has been searching for a place to stay for a while, but it's been hard. She realized this was his house only when she stepped in front of it while going to the next location she was supposed to check, and she was hit by nostalgia, and maybe the fatigue that was creeping on her.

He thinks for a bit, and suggests she can stay with him for a while if she is really in trouble, but she vehemently refuses. They have been separated for too long, but that's not all and when he asks what could be the problem, we have the daughter show up (he immediately realizes it's her daughter, because they look so much alike). He understands why she would have reservations, but renews his offer because "even after 17 years, it'd hurt me to think of you as a stranger" or some other such bullshit for the occasion.

This keeps the premise, we still have questions if the author wants to play with reveals and other stuff, but makes the meeting a coincidence that happened because of mutual feelings, makes his offer free of pressure and honest, and doesn't paint Kyou in a poor light. It would also help in making the daughter attitude more understandable/palatable: they probably could have found a place even without him, and she isn't too cool with staying with a stranger, which is not available as an option when your mother drags you to this guy and more or less tries to pressure him into letting you two stay.

Note, this isn't the perfect story or the best way to start a story, this is my "I came up with this in 5 minutes as an example to keep most of the premise as is", but I think it already works much better than what we got.
 
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While I can't speak for others, it's obvious that there are problems here: the fact that she works doesn't mean she is paying him back, for example, as that possibility has never been brought up, as far as I remember.
Her NOT paying for anything has never been brought up either. She only asked him for a place to stay, but she never asked him to support her financially.

As for thinking that this is all in the readers' head, just check back to chapter 3, where the protagonist's friend asks him at least some of the questions others have posed here in the thread, and raised some of the same doubts. This shows that the author is aware that the situation is not normal, and would be in fact worrisome to any external observer (and especially ones who care about the protagonist).
The protagonist doesn't really say anything to ease his friend's worries, and admits to himself (and so to us, the readers) that it would be fine even if he was tricked. It's all the more frustrating because there are dozens of ways to make this story more sensible, but the author isn't doing anything to make Kyou look like a decent person.
Yes, the entire premise is about how weird the situation. It makes sense for the characters to be wary (Kyou herself even draws attention to this). The readers, on the other hand, should be able to see the tone, genre, and format & be able to tell where things are going. If this is your first 4-koma Slice of Life, they're 90% fluff with a focus on 1 or more characters just being cute and/or dumb

Finally, if you think she really has gone to him specifically for help raising a kid that isn't his after 17 years of no contact at all, I don't know how you can say she is a good person. This is like saying she never managed to develop a human relationship in the last 17 years, if he is first on the list, and lying about it would be an atrocious thing to do.
I'm saying she's an idiot that's just as attached to him as he is to her. It's operating on "soulmate/destiny" logic, which is a trope that's become more annoying the more I see it. Though, to be fair, people whose lives are completely absorbed by their jobs is apparently a common enough problem that it's a plot point in quiet a few series

Now if you want a list of things the author could have done to make this better (assuming they want to play this straight, and this is just meant to be a wholesome reunion story):

They don't meet inside his damn backyard as she is sneaking in. Instead, he is getting out of his house, and eventually notices her looking nostalgically toward the house, maybe she is teary. He recognizes her, and she snaps out of it. They talk for a while, and she explains that her house has burned down, and so she has been searching for a place to stay for a while, but it's been hard. She realized this was his house only when she stepped in front of it while going to the next location she was supposed to check, and she was hit by nostalgia, and maybe the fatigue that was creeping on her.

He thinks for a bit, and suggests she can stay with him for a while if she is really in trouble, but she vehemently refuses. They have been separated for too long, but that's not all and when he asks what could be the problem, we have the daughter show up (he immediately realizes it's her daughter, because they look so much alike). He understands why she would have reservations, but renews his offer because "even after 17 years, it'd hurt me to think of you as a stranger" or some other such bullshit for the occasion.

This keeps the premise, we still have questions if the author wants to play with reveals and other stuff, but makes the meeting a coincidence that happened because of mutual feelings, makes his offer free of pressure and honest, and doesn't paint Kyou in a poor light. It would also help in making the daughter attitude more understandable/palatable: they probably could have found a place even without him, and she isn't too cool with staying with a stranger, which is not available as an option when your mother drags you to this guy and more or less tries to pressure him into letting you two stay.

Note, this isn't the perfect story or the best way to start a story, this is my "I came up with this in 5 minutes as an example to keep most of the premise as is", but I think it already works much better than what we got.
1) This is the sob story that raises more red flags than the mundane lie she told. It sounds like she's trauma dumbing to get sympathy and pretending to refuse his offer to make it seem like that wasn't her goal. Also, introducing the daughter only after an offer is made absolutely puts pressure on him.
2) This completely changes the tone & format. There's no way you're getting all that into a 4-koma & unless the comedy is leaning on the darker side, there wouldn't really be room to make jokes with this setup.
3) The only thing really needed to fix the situation would be having her actually call him in advance. There would be much less pressure over the phone where he's not actually looking at them when he makes his choice
 
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People are conveniently leaving a major thing. She came 17 years later, while they both had no contact in those 17 years. 17 years is a lot of time. She is basically next to just an acquintance. Its like saying my best friend of middle school came to stay in my house with his family. Which is actually wild considering he is nothing more than some stranger to me. Of course I will ask some questions about it if not outright deny the proposal.
And also, no, the wife here is not some damsel in distress which needs some help. She herself is a working adult with a job. Despite that she is trying her best to stay in the house for as long as possible. Even relatives don't try to do that.
 
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you know what i'm also pretty sure that if i was reading the description of a romance novel and it was something along the lines of "single mother left homeless after her apartment is destroyed is forced to move in with financially stable professional painter who owns his own residence, is a fantastic cook who prepares every meal for her, takes care of all of the household chores, likes animals, gets along with her kid, but is also slightly brooding despite having secretly been in love with her for like 20 years after they briefly dated in college" i'd 100% assume that it was a self insert fantasy for single moms.
that's unlikely imo. I admit i do not read great many shojo/josei as i used to but the initial premise and the rest of the story is told from his pov

MC obviously is still in love with her, the burden of her coming to his house is virtual at best (the house is big enough, he is lonely, the daughter was only bratty at the start, him setting the 1 month time limit is obviously not going to be followed through and is just for the sake of him looking like he is still setting any rule), she will obviously fall in love with him again(he makes her life better by every metrics) . And as you can see in the comments here there are clearly a type of men who would be fine with it if it happened to them. Imo it's pretty clearly aimed for lonely guys who wish they had a relationships, or people who are in one but see this scenario type as romantic.

Cohabitation part i kinda like, the 'we werent in contact for 17 y and only reached out again when i was in deep shit"(because she has to have been, i just can't see otherwise how an ex you haven't talked to in this long would not be among your last options) very much less. The fact he is also pretty much admitting he d be ok with being deceived for her smile, i mean that's his life, but i won't stop people from calling him a simp for this. He still has the right to, that's his life, and this is a romcom, unless some weird mid or end of story devellopement happens because the series is being axed/the author gone slasher mode/he wanted to subvert expectation all along, which is highly unlikely the fact this situation would have likely been a walking red flag/pretty self serving/maniplative IRL is no object, and he will prove to have been right to have chosen to open his door to his soon to be new family.

Even that being the case though, it doesn't mean you re some wild asshole for thinking you should really at least question things more, if not turn her away. I probably wouldn't but if i asked as little questions i wouldn't pretend it's a wise decision/not motivated by lingering feeligns
 
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Her NOT paying for anything has never been brought up either. She only asked him for a place to stay, but she never asked him to support her financially.


Yes, the entire premise is about how weird the situation. It makes sense for the characters to be wary (Kyou herself even draws attention to this). The readers, on the other hand, should be able to see the tone, genre, and format & be able to tell where things are going. If this is your first 4-koma Slice of Life, they're 90% fluff with a focus on 1 or more characters just being cute and/or dumb


I'm saying she's an idiot that's just as attached to him as he is to her. It's operating on "soulmate/destiny" logic, which is a trope that's become more annoying the more I see it. Though, to be fair, people whose lives are completely absorbed by their jobs is apparently a common enough problem that it's a plot point in quiet a few series


1) This is the sob story that raises more red flags than the mundane lie she told. It sounds like she's trauma dumbing to get sympathy and pretending to refuse his offer to make it seem like that wasn't her goal. Also, introducing the daughter only after an offer is made absolutely puts pressure on him.
2) This completely changes the tone & format. There's no way you're getting all that into a 4-koma & unless the comedy is leaning on the darker side, there wouldn't really be room to make jokes with this setup.
3) The only thing really needed to fix the situation would be having her actually call him in advance. There would be much less pressure over the phone where he's not actually looking at them when he makes his choice

Neither prospects have been brought up, therefore the default interpretation should be "she didn't offer", because that's the one that requires fewer assumptions (which is to say "what we see is what we get"). I can easily come up with explanations, conversations and more that happened off-screen to make a story work, but at that point I might as well write my own series instead.

I am not saying that the author is trying to make this story sinister, I am saying they are doing a poor job of making this light-hearted. What's the point of bringing all this baggage into a narrative (they haven't seen each other for 17 years, the father is nowhere to be seen, we are lead to assume nobody else could help her, he is still hang up on her, etc.), if they don't want to tackle these? And how does the story look, if the adults in the room ignore all of it just to play house first? You don't need to tackle everything at once, but you need to make the setting believable. Right now everything is happening because he still has feelings for her, which is fine (at least now we know why he is just okay with everything), but doesn't exactly paint a pretty picture either.

Honestly, I don't think it's a great idea to have Kyou act this way. We are talking about a couple of adults who have dated before. There are plenty of justifications to be conflicted or not wanting to hook-up even if she has feeling for him (her having a daughter and wanting to put her first could cause all sorts of conflicts), but after you have already gotten inside his home, I'd like at least for them to act like they aren't teenagers about their stuff.

1) How is this a SOB story any more than the current setup? In the current version it's heavily implied she has nowhere to go, and has been having a hard time, otherwise the premise sinks entirely. A coincidental meeting just makes it less shameless on her part to show up with the intention of asking for help 17 years later after their last interaction.
2) This changes almost nothing. Kyou can still be a scatterbrain, he can still be in love, they can still have their vibes going, the daughter can still be a bit upset about the situation but happy her mother seems to be at ease around him. They would just start the relationship with some basic, healthy honesty, and neither would look or sound like they are taking advantage of the other. The story already has melancholic vibes, I don't see how my version impacts the setting in any significant way.
3) This would be a fine start, but I was working under the assumption that the author really didn't want that to happen, for whatever reason. That would also still make it weird he wouldn't ask more questions, while my scenario exposes a few more details for the readers and the protagonist.
 
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Neither prospects have been brought up, therefore the default interpretation should be "she didn't offer", because that's the one that requires fewer assumptions (which is to say "what we see is what we get"). I can easily come up with explanations, conversations and more that happened off-screen to make a story work, but at that point I might as well write my own series instead.
Assuming she offered means we don't have to think about their financial situation at all
Assuming she didn't offer AND actively refuses to put any money towards expenses means she's being a financial burden & creates a conflict that only becomes more of an issue the longer it doesn't get addressed.
Which actually requires less assuming

I am not saying that the author is trying to make this story sinister, I am saying they are doing a poor job of making this light-hearted. What's the point of bringing all this baggage into a narrative (they haven't seen each other for 17 years, the father is nowhere to be seen, we are lead to assume nobody else could help her, he is still hang up on her, etc.), if they don't want to tackle these? And how does the story look, if the adults in the room ignore all of it just to play house first? You don't need to tackle everything at once, but you need to make the setting believable. Right now everything is happening because he still has feelings for her, which is fine (at least now we know why he is just okay with everything), but doesn't exactly paint a pretty picture either.
We're having this conversation PERSICSLY BECAUSE the author didn't tackle these topics in the first two chapters. It's clear we're going to get answers as time goes on, but that doesn't matter because people don't like the premise.

The big issue is that people are making up conflicts that just aren't there. They've already acknowledged the time gap, the dad doesn't seem to matter yet, if at all, Kyou seems to just be on her own (that happens sometimes), soulmates, etc. This story is really simple & goofy, with just a touch of melancholy, but y'all are getting caught up in little details

1) How is this a SOB story any more than the current setup? In the current version it's heavily implied she has nowhere to go, and has been having a hard time, otherwise the premise sinks entirely. A coincidental meeting just makes it less shameless on her part to show up with the intention of asking for help 17 years later after their last interaction.
She's not presenting herself as a tragic figure, just someone in a bit of a bind. If she's going on and on about how she lost everything in a house fire, he's not just doing her a favor, he's rescuing her. It would also give her leverage to actually manipulate him as she can use what she "lost in the fire" as an excuse for why she's not getting anything done

2) This changes almost nothing. Kyou can still be a scatterbrain, he can still be in love, they can still have their vibes going, the daughter can still be a bit upset about the situation but happy her mother seems to be at ease around him. They would just start the relationship with some basic, healthy honesty, and neither would look or sound like they are taking advantage of the other. The story already has melancholic vibes, I don't see how my version impacts the setting in any significant way.
Spending the whole first chapter going over how bad her life's been until this point would set a very different tone than the awkward, joke-y way they dropped an inconvenience on his lap. The melancholic vibes are more of an undertone, while the rest is about the goofyness of their interactions. You have to really downplay the effects of losing everything in a house fire to make sure the vibe isn't just actually depressing, at which point, we're just kinda back where we started with the apartment reason. You also say "healthy honesty", but that's assuming she isn't lying about the house fire.

3) This would be a fine start, but I was working under the assumption that the author really didn't want that to happen, for whatever reason. That would also still make it weird he wouldn't ask more questions, while my scenario exposes a few more details for the readers and the protagonist.
I mean, Takaharu's reaction was funny & it showcased that Kyou was a ditz. We also only got the summery of the conversation, so we don't actually know what questions were asked. All we know is that he didn't think to ask about the girls father
 
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Assuming she offered means we don't have to think about their financial situation at all
Assuming she didn't offer AND actively refuses to put any money towards expenses means she's being a financial burden & creates a conflict that only becomes more of an issue the longer it doesn't get addressed.
Which actually requires less assuming


We're having this conversation PERSICSLY BECAUSE the author didn't tackle these topics in the first two chapters. It's clear we're going to get answers as time goes on, but that doesn't matter because people don't like the premise.

The big issue is that people are making up conflicts that just aren't there. They've already acknowledged the time gap, the dad doesn't seem to matter yet, if at all, Kyou seems to just be on her own (that happens sometimes), soulmates, etc. This story is really simple & goofy, with just a touch of melancholy, but y'all are getting caught up in little details


She's not presenting herself as a tragic figure, just someone in a bit of a bind. If she's going on and on about how she lost everything in a house fire, he's not just doing her a favor, he's rescuing her. It would also give her leverage to actually manipulate him as she can use what she "lost in the fire" as an excuse for why she's not getting anything done


Spending the whole first chapter going over how bad her life's been until this point would set a very different tone than the awkward, joke-y way they dropped an inconvenience on his lap. The melancholic vibes are more of an undertone, while the rest is about the goofyness of their interactions. You have to really downplay the effects of losing everything in a house fire to make sure the vibe isn't just actually depressing, at which point, we're just kinda back where we started with the apartment reason. You also say "healthy honesty", but that's assuming she isn't lying about the house fire.


I mean, Takaharu's reaction was funny & it showcased that Kyou was a ditz. We also only got the summery of the conversation, so we don't actually know what questions were asked. All we know is that he didn't think to ask about the girls father

I don't think you understand how assumptions work. The author didn't show us her offering, therefore it didn't happen. There are no assumptions here. While you need to assume that what wasn't shown actually happened off-screen even if it's never referenced, to get to "she offered to pay him back".

This would be like me arguing that "she told him about his husband" because that way "only becomes more of an issue the longer it doesn't get addressed". Now you CAN say that the story works better if we assume she is paying him back, but that's a different conversation.

The devil is in the details. Just because I acknowledge what the author is trying to do, it doesn't mean that what we are getting does a good job at it. This is clearly much more awkward than intended (unless they are trying to subvert expectations).

Who said anything about going over her entire life? She'd just have to say the house has burned down and she is having a hard time to find a spot despite trying. We don't need to explore every detail of her life now, although at least one or two things must be given to make them moving in seem warranted. Of course I am not assuming Kyou is lying, that's up to the author to decide (and if she is lying about her situation, she is a terrible person taking advantage of her ex).

His friend is also implying there has to be something more than just living together, because living together just because she suddenly showed up claiming to need help is not normal (he doens't explicitly say it, but it's obvious to understand he doesn't believe it). The plot is doing most stuff backward, if you ask me.
 
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I don't think you understand how assumptions work. The author didn't show us her offering, therefore it didn't happen. There are no assumptions here. While you need to assume that what wasn't shown actually happened off-screen even if it's never referenced, to get to "she offered to pay him back".

This would be like me arguing that "she told him about his husband" because that way "only becomes more of an issue the longer it doesn't get addressed". Now you CAN say that the story works better if we assume she is paying him back, but that's a different conversation.
"I didn't see it, therefore it didn't happen" is still an assumption. Under your logic, she never actually asked to live with him, because they didn't actually show her asking to live there. He also never offered to pay her living expenses. That's just an ASSUMPTION you are making based on nothing. You are assuming a conflict exist, despite there being no evidence, when it's far easier to assume there just is no conflict

He did ask to talk about her living situation at the end of the first chapter and he gave his answer at the start of the second chapter. This implies that they had a conversation about her situation and likely what her plans are. This isn't some wild assumption or mental gymnastics, this is basic reading comprehension.

Also, due to how they completely glossed over the girl's father, he's likely completely irrelevant to the story

The devil is in the details. Just because I acknowledge what the author is trying to do, it doesn't mean that what we are getting does a good job at it. This is clearly much more awkward than intended (unless they are trying to subvert expectations).
Because it's being comedic. The humor is coming from how awkward & silly the whole situation is.

Who said anything about going over her entire life? She'd just have to say the house has burned down and she is having a hard time to find a spot despite trying. We don't need to explore every detail of her life now, although at least one or two things must be given to make them moving in seem warranted. Of course I am not assuming Kyou is lying, that's up to the author to decide (and if she is lying about her situation, she is a terrible person taking advantage of her ex).
Because anything that isn't explained in the first chapter is going to have people whine about how the story "isn't tackling it's baggage". The reason is largely irrelevant, as she just needs an excuse to be there (hence why the details were glossed over & we're only getting dripfeed info after the fact).
 

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