Hazure Zokusei Tsuchi Mahou no Sei de Henkyou ni Tsuihousareta no de, Gangan Ryouchi Kaitakushimasu! - Vol. 1 Ch. 1 - Faulty Attribute

[Amplify]

Where are you getting all this? Since when did the manga say that all children learn about phlogiston, whether they are noble or commoners?

And since when did the model of understanding directly affect the practical effectiveness of magic? It's not like people had the fundamentals of physics and buoyancy when they made seafaring boats out of singular tree trunks, or had microscopes and knew about bacteria when they made yeast and fermented goods.

Okay, then prove the opposite; that these people living in a medieval fantasy world do not have a medieval level of understanding of the elements.

Oh I'm sorry I wasn't aware that you're an expert on their magic system, or magic in general. Please enlighten the class on the intricacies of magic, how many spells can you cast anyway mr wizard?

 

[cryum]

Oh I'm sorry I wasn't aware that you're an expert on their magic system

Mate thats literally the argument I just gave you. You're assuming their magic system works a certain way as if it's obvious.

 

[Amplify]

Mate thats literally the argument I just gave you. You're assuming their magic system works a certain way as if it's obvious.

I am making reasonably logical inferences based on the presented premise and information provided.
You're arguing the opposite, because I'm not providing a verified source to prove that a medieval fantasy has a medieval fantasy level of understanding of science. Burden of proof is on you for this one, if you want to show that his medieval fantasy is different from literally 99% of all medieval fantasies in any manga.

 

[cryum]

I am making reasonably logical inferences based on the presented premise and information provided.
You're arguing the opposite, because I'm not providing a verified source to prove that a medieval fantasy has a medieval fantasy level of understanding of science. Burden of proof is on you for this one, if you want to show that his medieval fantasy is different from literally 99% of all medieval fantasies in any manga.

There's quite a lot to unpack here, I've never seen someone take this position and think they're being logical.

What you have assumed in order to make your conclusions are:

• The complete list of elements in the system used in the setting
• The educational model used by both nobles and commoners, including the idea that they were educated similarly in the first place.
• The nature of physics in that setting being similar to the real world, even though magical energy exists.
• The causation of the "accuracy" of the theoretical model to practical efficiency of spells

So let's ignore those first 3, and focus just on the last one. Knowing earthling physics does not automatically translate to better mana efficiency in your stereotypical medieval fantasy. That's not a normal thing in "literally 99% of medieval fantasies". What we have witnessed doesn't even pass the correlation vs. causation test, and the very next chapter even specifically states that his efficiency is normal.

If I were to assume that you're basing all this on a flawed understanding of Mushoku Tensei and ONLY that, you'd be wrong even within the rules of that setting. MC is not exploiting natural phenomena to get an exponential amount of work done, nor is he using efficient structures to use less mass with the same strength, it's specifically actions that rely on a huge amount of mass.

I don't need to prove anything else, I just need to ask you what you're smoking.

 

[Amplify]

There's quite a lot to unpack here, I've never seen someone take this position and think they're being logical.

What you have assumed in order to make your conclusions are:

• The complete list of elements in the system used in the setting
• The educational model used by both nobles and commoners, including the idea that they were educated similarly in the first place.
• The nature of physics in that setting being similar to the real world, even though magical energy exists.
• The causation of the "accuracy" of the theoretical model to practical efficiency of spells

So let's ignore those first 3, and focus just on the last one. Knowing earthling physics does not automatically translate to better mana efficiency in your stereotypical medieval fantasy. That's not a normal thing in "literally 99% of medieval fantasies". What we have witnessed doesn't even pass the correlation vs. causation test, and the very next chapter even specifically states that his efficiency is normal.

If I were to assume that you're basing all this on a flawed understanding of Mushoku Tensei and ONLY that, you'd be wrong even within the rules of that setting. MC is not exploiting natural phenomena to get an exponential amount of work done, nor is he using efficient structures to use less mass with the same strength, it's specifically actions that rely on a huge amount of mass.

I don't need to prove anything else, I just need to ask you what you're smoking.

1: Unless otherwise stated, their world has all the normal elements that our world does, plus at most a couple of fantasy metals to make top-tier equipment out of like Mithril, Adamantium or Orichalcum. We have ZERO reason to think otherwise. This is an incredibly standard and reasonable inference to make that holds true across basically every fantasy world as authors are not going around completely reinventing the periodic table.
2: At no point have I said ANYTHING to that effect. You've taken a few scattered words I've said and invented entire paragraphs of meaning from them in your head and your head alone.
3: To restate what I said in the first point here, we have ZERO reason to think otherwise. This is an incredibly standard and reasonable inference to make that holds true across basically every fantasy world as authors are not going around completely reinventing the laws of physics. Why would they need to, when you can simply tack magic onto the end of the laws of physics as we know them?
4: Again, you're inventing things again. I want to be brutally blunt and call you too fucking stupid to understand what I'm saying but I'll hold off on that judgement for now. "A medieval fantasy has a medieval fantasy level of understanding of science." That was my statement in relation to the 99% number, nothing to do with mana efficiency or whatever.

A separate statement I've made however which is unrelated to the "99% of medieval fantasies" one is that if you are trying to control the earth with magic, it is reasonable to believe that if you properly understand the substance you are trying to magically control that you can do so with more efficiency than if you were trying to brute-force it. This is far from the first time a manga has had this exact plot line with the MC getting earth or creation magic (which get treated the exact same way) and each time the standard reasoning/excuse as to why the MC can use their magic really well when nobody else can use the same type nearly so well which the author uses, is that since the MC is from modern day earth they have the knowledge and imagination that these primitive medieval people don't have and can thus use their knowledge of the periodic table and modern inventions or whatever to get great results for only a fraction of the mana cost. I have not seen anything to the contrary to show that this isn't like all the others, this exact plot line is really damn common, there are more series in the world than Mushoku Tensei.

If you try to move things, moving them with the grain so to speak as opposed to randomly is going to get you more efficient results for less effort. This is not rocket science.

 

[cryum]

A separate statement I've made however which is unrelated to the "99% of medieval fantasies" one is that if you are trying to control the earth with magic, it is reasonable to believe that if you properly understand the substance you are trying to magically control that you can do so with more efficiency than if you were trying to brute-force it. This is far from the first time a manga has had this exact plot line with the MC getting earth or creation magic (which get treated the exact same way) and each time the standard reasoning/excuse as to why the MC can use their magic really well when nobody else can use the same type nearly so well which the author uses, is that since the MC is from modern day earth they have the knowledge and imagination that these primitive medieval people don't have and can thus use their knowledge of the periodic table and modern inventions or whatever to get great results for only a fraction of the mana cost. I have not seen anything to the contrary to show that this isn't like all the others, this exact plot line is really damn common, there are more series in the world than Mushoku Tensei.

If you try to move things, moving them with the grain so to speak as opposed to randomly is going to get you more efficient results for less effort. This is not rocket science.

You have misunderstood the vast majority of manga, and your axiom is wrong. Not tremendously wrong, just wrong.

 

[Amplify]

You have misunderstood the vast majority of manga, and your axiom is wrong. Not tremendously wrong, just wrong.

I have quite literally presented hard proof for you in the form of a panel from this manga. His UNIQUE way of using earth magic is to use the periodic table of elements. Unique, as in nobody else here does that, which we can reasonably infer means that nobody else around knows the concept of elements beyond the basic few.

Meanwhile your only reply is "Nuh uh, you're wrong because I said so!". If we quantified the distance between you and the nearest logical argument it would take the form of a line so long it couldn't fit within this universe.

 

[cryum]

I have quite literally presented hard proof for you in the form of a panel from this manga. His UNIQUE way of using earth magic is to use the periodic table of elements. Unique, as in nobody else here does that, which we can reasonably infer means that nobody else around knows the concept of elements beyond the basic few.

Meanwhile your only reply is "Nuh uh, you're wrong because I said so!". If we quantified the distance between you and the nearest logical argument it would take the form of a line so long it couldn't fit within this universe.

oh, the image didn't load, didn't see that.

....you realize that this is about refining minerals from the raw ore, right? Not mana efficiency? That having a different type and effect of magic is unique, and the entire problem of the first chapter was that it WASN'T unique? This isn't the own that you think it is, and prioritizing that seems to be an issue.

 

[Amplify]

oh, the image didn't load, didn't see that.

....you realize that this is about refining minerals from the raw ore, right? Not mana efficiency? That having a different type and effect of magic is unique, and the entire problem of the first chapter was that it WASN'T unique? This isn't the own that you think it is, and prioritizing that seems to be an issue.

• His use of magic is unique because his perspective / knowledge of the elements as somebody from our world is more or less complete, whereas it is not for everybody else.
• He is using Earth magic incredibly efficiently even with only a few months of training (for reference, see: the chapter you're commenting on), where others all fail and achieve little to nothing in their whole lives, hence the reputation for Earth magic to be weak.
• Therefore, the logical conclusion is that knowledge of the elements and modern concepts helps make you drastically stronger as an Earth mage. Is this clicking into place for you yet?

Still I think I'm wasting my breath here, It is blindingly obvious that nothing will be sufficient evidence for you, short of the author directly and personally spelling things out for you in small enough words.

 

[DanYHKim]

'Plucking a leaf or flower petal off a girl's hair'

Is there some cultural significance to this? It happens often in manga, and I wonder if there is more to it than just showing attention toward a girl.