Henkyou no Roukishi - Bard Loen - Vol. 4 Ch. 19 - Master

[cgr]

@BestBoy

I don't think this fantasy world is reflective of our own

I agree with you,
however it's irrelevant to my discussion with Nimroth:
I'm saying that since Nimroth (and you) use logic from our history, you should provide sources with chronology.

Partial details like tin being rare does not automatically make bronze weapons more expensive, because
there could be other reasons for steel weapons being more expensive or bronze weapons being more expensive.

for example, Kz3 gave two possible explanations, (and I agreed with the second one):
1.

Good steel is even more complicated to manufacture,

2.

Also the metalwork with steel is harder, maybe thats why is more expensive, also Bronce isnt as durable

 

[BestBoy]

@cgr It really depends if you're asking in regards to the fantasy story or the real world. The answers are different.

 

[cgr]

@BestBoy
it should be obvious that both Nimroth and I were discussing it with real world's history as basis, because there is no point if we discuss fantasy since author can make up any sensible sounding logic he wants.

 

[NotALewdGuy]

Was wondering why are you guys saying Lecan, then I noticed the author.
Holy shit that's cool

 

[orochijes]

@cgr
Why would anyone provide sources in a manga comments section? This isn't a term paper. You're really gonna read a book on metallurgy just cause some guy linked it while saying "bronze was expensive"? And you say "it should be obvious" that you're talking about the real world when you were the first to bring up "fantasy settings" yourself. lol what a weird guy

 

[BestBoy]

@cgr The answers are different depending on the time period as well. Steel might be the more useful material for weaponry, but that isn't the only factor affecting price. The biggest factor is often the cost to make the product.

@orochijes Ya I'm certainly not about to source anything. This is a comment section and this stuff is basic supply and demand economics. No need to source.

 

[cgr]

@orochijes

Why would anyone provide sources in a manga comments section?

Because that's the entire basis of Nimroth's and BestBoy's point about metal scarcity and price. Since they haven't provided sources, I and a lot of other commentators would obviously be very skeptical of their claims.

You're really gonna read a book on metallurgy just cause some guy linked it while saying "bronze was expensive"?

not as long as a book, but I would like to read even a single sentence saying something like 'bronze weapons are more expensive than steel weapons' from a credible source. I legitimately haven't read anything like that.

And you say "it should be obvious" that you're talking about the real world when you were the first to bring up...

Please read the entirety of my comments and the comments I replied to, my main point was asking for real world sources because I was replying to Nimroth and Bestboy's real world historical logic. the fantasy settings was just an afterthought in one comment.

@BestBoy
Supply and demand economics: steel weapons are stronger/more durable than bronze, hence steel weapons should be in higher demand, hence the equilibrium price that steel weapons settle at should be higher than the equilibrium price that bronze weapons settle at.

My conclusion: your logic doesn't really hold without sources.

 

[BestBoy]

@cgr You've forgotten about the production side of supply and demand which will determine the base price something is sold at. The price at which the producer, at the very least, breaks even. When supply for a product is low it shifts the equilibrium to the left, resulting in a higher price and a lower quantity. The exact opposite happens with steel swords. The materials required for steel swords are much easier to come by so producers don't need to pay as much to have them sourced.

Right now, Tin on it's own cost 5x as much as Steel. Bronze has always been more expensive than steel simply because steel is so much easier to produce.

 

[Helio]

Very good manga.

 

[cgr]

@BestBoy

Right now, Tin on it's own cost 5x as much as Steel.

So how about the cost of tin in history compared to cost of steel in history?
Also, how about the cost of forging bronze weapons compared to the cost of forging steel weapons as Kz3 suggested?

Also, tin is only 12~12.5% of bronze, so comparing tin and steel costs isn't enough to determine base materials' price.

You've forgotten about ...

The biggest factor is often the cost to make the product.

I haven't, but without any cost numbers/sources to back your statements up, your vague statement doesn't really have any basis, so my logic is just as valid as yours.

Since you haven't provided any historical sources despite me asking for it several times, I think there is no point in debating this further. I'm out. Goodbye.

 

[BestBoy]

@cgr Tin has always cost more than steel because of scarcity. The forging doesn't matter since one takes more skill because of its softness while the requires more technology because of it high heat threshold. They even out.

Iron is typically at least 90% of steel and iron is the 4th most common element in the earth's crust at 50,000 ppm.

I mean, you definitely did forget several aspects that determine price equilibrium in favor of the one aspect that supports your conclusion, but if you want to end this with your elementary understanding of economics that's fine by me.

I was never going to provide historical sources, especially since none were ever provided in any of the other comments. Go read a history book yourself.

 

[JonNickMangadex]

God this manga is so fuckin good

 

[Simpleton]

@Nimroth "Why steel swords more expensive than bronze?" - Short answer: You get what you pay for.

Longer thinking: Tin and copper was a lot easier both to mine/smelt and to work with, so you got that to begin with. (Tin scarcity was a major reason for the change to iron/steel weapons, but not because there was too little of it, more because it didn't reach the manufacturers due to trade network collapse.)

Once you have moved into steel weaponry, the quality difference to bronze weaponry will also mean the skilled weapon craftsmen will move to that material, inventing things like hardening and having different qualities of steel in body and on edge of weapon. Demand on such superior weapons would also outstrip supply (since new changes would be added, making old weapons less impressive), meaning prices for good knight swords would be high.
Mercenary sellswords would have cheaper swords, but we don't mention those in the story because we're trying to scare off the kid (or test his resolve).
Meanwhile, bronze weapons wouldn't be made much, but if you got one it'd either be an old weapon that nobody wants (so you're basically only paying metal value, and a slight premium if the seller realizes you want the sword, not the metal), or it'd be made by some village smith because a farmers son wanted a sword to scare off bandits with. (Probably paid for with metal value and some food/favors/barter.)

--

Speaking of barter, I'm thinking this sellsword that trained him for a year was paid mostly with food and lodging, and he apparently had to argue for a week to land that job (and probably some cash mustering out bonus at the end)

 

[Zurump_0419]

Uh hi, is it possible to give another link to your scans group? It says here the one on this is expired.

 

[Aldnonymous]

Now this is accurate, the nobles can buy expensive sword this is why they can subdue the population back in the early medieval era.

 

[no0neknows]

parallels....

 

[Tankerrex]

It comes off as odd how a bronze sword is so much less expensive than a steel one here, one of the reasons bronze fell out of use for swords in the first place was because tin was expensive and rare.
I suppose tin could be plentiful in this world and steel a bit rarer, though I doubt the author thought of that point.

Steel is a superior metal compared to bronze for sword making. When a sword of bronze and a sword of steel clash, usually the bronze sword will break

 

[nhansieu1]

It comes off as odd how a bronze sword is so much less expensive than a steel one here, one of the reasons bronze fell out of use for swords in the first place was because tin was expensive and rare.
I suppose tin could be plentiful in this world and steel a bit rarer, though I doubt the author thought of that point.

you're thinking of "Aluminum Bronze"