Heterogenia Linguistico - Ch. 45 - The Change of The Seasons

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<<But still, what does he mean "weird"?>>

This is Hakaba talking about Susuki saying Kekuu is weird? So Susuki is being referred to as a "he" in this?

I mean, it's on point for the topic of the chapter, but...ironic?
 
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your translations always feel superior to the official translations, but I'll buy them none the less as I enjoy this manga.
 
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Bold of him to assume that they even have the same genders as us or that they don't have ways to see other's gender (you can tell someone's gender even ignoring the clothes, cuz evolution). At least we can be sure that the half-werewolf half-human cunny is a cunny and not a shota (tho a hole is a goal so who cares)
 
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To me, what moo was saying is pretty clear: they are saying that most of the monsters do not "think", and the ones that do are usually seen as strange and ends up alone. The only exception being probably the goblins (which may or may not be just humans with a different name, the jury is still out on that).

Generally speaking, monsters are skirting at the edge between sentience and instinct, like intelligent animals or the first ancient hominids. They don't "think", but rather "react": they don't plan, they rarely learn, and when they do it is knowledge obtained by chance rather than actively researched. They don't have "societies" , but rather "gatherings", "colonies" and "herds"; there is almost no mutual assistance, at best some rudimental attempts at cooperation towards a common goal. Some don't even have objects permanence. The ones that have developed farther, they did so due to human influence: the most advanced societies we saw were the ones closest to human territory, and regressed as the protagonist proceeded further into his travel. At the beginning we had the werewolves, which were basically furry humans, with a stable village, winter preparations, a common lenguage, tradings, rituals, social norms, etc, etc... The stable settlements were the first thing to go, soon followed by the single common lenguage. We then lost the ability to properly collaborate and the ability to not eat each other (initially as ritualistic cannibalism, soon devolved into opportunistic cannibalism). During this last leg of the trip we lost any form of common lenguages, the ability to plan for winter (enter in a home and hope to survive), any form of compassion for others, the concept of property (and with that the commerce). The introduction of fish people alone dealt a huge blow to the ability to not kill each other for food, the ability to recognize others as "people" and the ability to be self conscious (most of the time). The only exception seems to be the goblins, but for aspect and behaviors I suspect they are closely related to humans.

We have seen very few individuals that escaped this trend, capable of philosophical thoughts: Moo, the goat (or at least, they were suspected of doing some sort of behavioral research) and now kekuu. Susuki sometimes dabble in some abstract reasoning, but almost always as a reaction to a protagonist's input.
The questions that kekuu asks are quite interesting: meat dies, while rocks last. I want to last, why I have to die? Why I am meat? If I eat rocks, does it becomes meat? The ones that would have followed, would have been even more interesting: if I eat rocks, do I become stone? what can I do to become stone? We die because we are meat, or we become meats after we die? If we stop eating each other after we die, will we become something other than just meat? These are the questions that lead away from cannibalism and towards ritualistic burial.
 
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To me, what moo was saying is pretty clear: they are saying that most of the monsters do not "think", and the ones that do are usually seen as strange and ends up alone. The only exception being probably the goblins (which may or may not be just humans with a different name, the jury is still out on that).

Generally speaking, monsters are skirting at the edge between sentience and instinct, like intelligent animals or the first ancient hominids. They don't "think", but rather "react": they don't plan, they rarely learn, and when they do it is knowledge obtained by chance rather than actively researched. They don't have "societies" , but rather "gatherings", "colonies" and "herds"; there is almost no mutual assistance, at best some rudimental attempts at cooperation towards a common goal. Some don't even have objects permanence. The ones that have developed farther, they did so due to human influence: the most advanced societies we saw were the ones closest to human territory, and regressed as the protagonist proceeded further into his travel. At the beginning we had the werewolves, which were basically furry humans, with a stable village, winter preparations, a common lenguage, tradings, rituals, social norms, etc, etc... The stable settlements were the first thing to go, soon followed by the single common lenguage. We then lost the ability to properly collaborate and the ability to not eat each other (initially as ritualistic cannibalism, soon devolved into opportunistic cannibalism). During this last leg of the trip we lost any form of common lenguages, the ability to plan for winter (enter in a home and hope to survive), any form of compassion for others, the concept of property (and with that the commerce). The introduction of fish people alone dealt a huge blow to the ability to not kill each other for food, the ability to recognize others as "people" and the ability to be self conscious (most of the time). The only exception seems to be the goblins, but for aspect and behaviors I suspect they are closely related to humans.

We have seen very few individuals that escaped this trend, capable of philosophical thoughts: Moo, the goat (or at least, they were suspected of doing some sort of behavioral research) and now kekuu. Susuki sometimes dabble in some abstract reasoning, but almost always as a reaction to a protagonist's.
The questions that kekuu asks are quite interesting: meat dies, while rocks last. I want to last, why I have to die? Why I am meat? If I eat rocks, does it becomes meat? The ones that would have followed, would have been even more interesting: if I eat rocks, do I become stone? what can I do to become stone? We die because we are meat, or we become meats after we die? If we stop eating each other after we die, will we become something other than just meat? These are the questions that lead away from cannibalism and towards ritualistic burial.
I'm getting the sneaking suspicion that "goblin" is actually just a profession like eeeeuu.
The original Moo line is ungrammatical. The following explanation is going to be very nitty gritty but I'm full of gamer rage about that line.
In panel 3 the line is 彼はそうであるのをはい/と思うのは少ない, literally "him being such [nominalizer] [direct object marker] yes [complementizer] think [nominalizer] [topic] few. In Japanese, it's somewhat uncommon to see a direct object for a verb like think or say that could take a complementizer (like "that": "I think that...", rather than a direct object like in "I think him") and whenever I've seen a verb like "think" take a direct object it has been a noun and meant "to think about".
In this case the thing with a nominalized verb (verb acting as noun), which you don't usually do with a verb that can take a complementizer because it fulfills the exact same role as と (the complementizer) but requires two particles rather than one.
On my initial read that led me to think in my relatively Japanese-attuned brain "oh, the next thing will be the verb that takes a direct object and not a complementizer" and then the next thing was はい. Literally "yes". はい is not a verb, so it doesn't take a direct object. はいと思う (think yes) would be an odd thing to say but not necessarily ungrammatical, but when you throw in a direct object at the beginning with seemingly no verb to attach to it makes me wonder if this was a typo or deliberately incomprehensible. After that the rest makes enough sense "those who think [whatever that was supposed to mean] are few"
 
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I don't understand how this manga can hit me so hard with a talk of rocks and meat... Always surpasses my expectations.
 
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Kekuu likes rocks because they are permanent, but he hasn't connected the dots towards "how can something/someone become permanent" as a goal.
 
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I'm getting the sneaking suspicion that "goblin" is actually just a profession like eeeeuu.
The original Moo line is ungrammatical. The following explanation is going to be very nitty gritty but I'm full of gamer rage about that line.
In panel 3 the line is 彼はそうであるのをはい/と思うのは少ない, literally "him being such [nominalizer] [direct object marker] yes [complementizer] think [nominalizer] [topic] few. In Japanese, it's somewhat uncommon to see a direct object for a verb like think or say that could take a complementizer (like "that": "I think that...", rather than a direct object like in "I think him") and whenever I've seen a verb like "think" take a direct object it has been a noun and meant "to think about".
In this case the thing with a nominalized verb (verb acting as noun), which you don't usually do with a verb that can take a complementizer because it fulfills the exact same role as と (the complementizer) but requires two particles rather than one.
On my initial read that led me to think in my relatively Japanese-attuned brain "oh, the next thing will be the verb that takes a direct object and not a complementizer" and then the next thing was はい. Literally "yes". はい is not a verb, so it doesn't take a direct object. はいと思う (think yes) would be an odd thing to say but not necessarily ungrammatical, but when you throw in a direct object at the beginning with seemingly no verb to attach to it makes me wonder if this was a typo or deliberately incomprehensible. After that the rest makes enough sense "those who think [whatever that was supposed to mean] are few"

Ok, NOW I'm properly confused: if I got it right, the author built the "sentence" with little more than a verb and some filler, and the comprehensible translation was just a polite guess?
 
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The ice dragon will die so having a baby will cause that person to live on in a way, but it still won't be the same :( Kekuu really thinks about a lot of stuff, just has a hard time articulating it. Human beings IRL often have a hard time explaining their choices coherently, or just make up excuses to cover up more complex emotions, I think we can cut Kekuu some slack on that front.
 
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I still struggle to understand this series at times, I can only imagine what a nightmare it is to translate it.
 
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To me, what moo was saying is pretty clear: they are saying that most of the monsters do not "think", and the ones that do are usually seen as strange and ends up alone. The only exception being probably the goblins (which may or may not be just humans with a different name, the jury is still out on that).

Generally speaking, monsters are skirting at the edge between sentience and instinct, like intelligent animals or the first ancient hominids. They don't "think", but rather "react": they don't plan, they rarely learn, and when they do it is knowledge obtained by chance rather than actively researched. They don't have "societies" , but rather "gatherings", "colonies" and "herds"; there is almost no mutual assistance, at best some rudimental attempts at cooperation towards a common goal. Some don't even have objects permanence. The ones that have developed farther, they did so due to human influence: the most advanced societies we saw were the ones closest to human territory, and regressed as the protagonist proceeded further into his travel. At the beginning we had the werewolves, which were basically furry humans, with a stable village, winter preparations, a common lenguage, tradings, rituals, social norms, etc, etc... The stable settlements were the first thing to go, soon followed by the single common lenguage. We then lost the ability to properly collaborate and the ability to not eat each other (initially as ritualistic cannibalism, soon devolved into opportunistic cannibalism). During this last leg of the trip we lost any form of common lenguages, the ability to plan for winter (enter in a home and hope to survive), any form of compassion for others, the concept of property (and with that the commerce). The introduction of fish people alone dealt a huge blow to the ability to not kill each other for food, the ability to recognize others as "people" and the ability to be self conscious (most of the time). The only exception seems to be the goblins, but for aspect and behaviors I suspect they are closely related to humans.

We have seen very few individuals that escaped this trend, capable of philosophical thoughts: Moo, the goat (or at least, they were suspected of doing some sort of behavioral research) and now kekuu. Susuki sometimes dabble in some abstract reasoning, but almost always as a reaction to a protagonist's input.
The questions that kekuu asks are quite interesting: meat dies, while rocks last. I want to last, why I have to die? Why I am meat? If I eat rocks, does it becomes meat? The ones that would have followed, would have been even more interesting: if I eat rocks, do I become stone? what can I do to become stone? We die because we are meat, or we become meats after we die? If we stop eating each other after we die, will we become something other than just meat? These are the questions that lead away from cannibalism and towards ritualistic burial.
I agree with your general point, except with the idea they the monsterfolk are skirting the line of sentience. Of course it's open to interpretation, but I have a particular reason for thinking so. It's easy to tell that the author is a language enthusiast, and has probably done a good amount of research to make their monster languages interesting. From some of how the monsterfolk talk/act, I'm pretty sure the author is drawing on observations about the Pirahã people of the amazon rain-forest. They're kind of a favorite example case in linguistic circles for how radically different human languages can be, so if the author was doing any serious research they would likely have heard about them.

Among the things of note about the Pirahã is that they have have no native number system (they have words for "one", "two", and then things like "a bunch"). They have no distinct color-words. If they wanted to call something red, they might instead compare it to something, like saying it's "blood-like". The language can also apparently be whistled about as well as it can be spoken.

But maybe more of note here is Pirahã culture. Pirahã have no formal leaders or apparent social hierarchy, and while people might cooperate, but they are strongly against telling others what to do. They do not store or preserve food. They do not draw or make pictures. They are dependent on canoes for fishing and travel, but don't make their own, instead trading with a neighboring tribe. When given the opportunity to learn, they responded, "Pirahã do not make canoes".

They also have no oral storytelling tradition. That means no recorded history, no grand narratives, and no religion. When asked where they come from, they responded, "We've always been here". When missionaries tried to convert them, they entirely lost interest when they learned that the missionaries had not personally met Jesus in the flesh. Their culture revolves almost entirely around passive cooperation, first hand experience, and living in the here-and-now.

... a lot like the monsterfolk in the story here. In fact so much so that I'm under the impression that the Pirahã were one of the major inspirations for monsterfolk culture (the no-oral-storytelling thing is the biggest indicator for me).

But, coming back to my original point, the Pirahã aren't some neanderthal offshoot of humanity. They are anatomically modern humans. The children can learn Portuguese and do arithmetic if you teach them. The difference between us and the Pirahã is not anatomy, but society. And so, given that the monsterfolk in our story here are only about as weird as the weirdest humans still around today, that even though there are definitely physical differences between monsterfolk and humans, they seem to be primarily a matter of perception and articulation, not cognition.
 
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Man the manga is already good but reading the comments just makes the whole expirience way better, i could also say my piece about this chap but its 3am and my mind doesnt like to work at this time of the day
 
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"if i could eat rocks would they be meat?"

image0.gif
 
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It's amazing how depth of character can be conveyed, even with the difficult dialogue. My interpretation is that kekuu loves the dragon, which will die soon, so kekuu wants to have children with the dragon, as proof of their love even after the dragon dies, but kekuu also says the children won't be the same, and my guess is he means that the children won't replace the dragon. Then, kekuu also worries about death, and about how meaningless it is to have children, who of course will eventually die. Kekuu wants to have children, maybe even instinctively, but he questions the point of doing it. Absolutely beautiful showcase of inner character conflict.
 
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Kekuu is a rather wise and intellectual for the general monsterkind in the area. Kekuu clearly cares about Ice Dragon. Whether it's the human concept of "love" is unsure, as societally, they do not seem to have such a rather involved tradition. If you can make babies and you want to with the being, you do it. Then, I believe,both parent decide on their own who takes care of them, both or one of them. As with everything in monster culture, things are simple. Too complex, and the harsh reality of their land and their fellows will interfere with it greatly

Kekuu wishes to save Ice Dragon, but Ice is obstinate. So Kekuu wishes to make babies with them. Likely to try and "preserve" Ice in a way. But Kekuu is smart. They know that even if they do make a baby, and the baby looks or even acts like Ice, it will never be Ice. Because Ice turned into meat under the ice. Kekuu is wiser here than some human parents who try to replace their dead spouse with the child that looks like the dead spouse.

What Kekuu is inadvertently approaching is the concept of legacy and lineages. The human concept of preserving some aspect of the parents/ancestors through the perpetuation of the family line. It is the most common way for mortal humans to try and avoid death, if only partially.

Then, as Kekuu thinks about Ice dying, they slip into what is likely a common thought. Why does Kekuu need to turn into meat? Why do any of them have to turn into meat? Do they die because they are meat? Rocks are not meat. Rocks stay forever. Is it because it is not meat?

These are direct thoughts about death. The age old "Why do we have to die?" But Kekuu is not dreading death, Kekuu's just rather confused about the why.

But there's a rather significant question that Kekuu asked:
"If I eat rocks, does it turn into meat?"
This is not just Kekuu thinking if they could bypass the fate of meat by turning into rock. I believe this is connected to one of the more constant "tradition" of theirs, cannibalism of a dead you acknowledge. Then you could rephrase the question as:
"If I eat the meat of others, does it turn into my meat?"
This leads to the next thought:
"Do others I've eaten remain preserved in me? Do I carry them with me? Are they with me now? Do they still LIVE in me and through me?"

This would be a rather unique form of tradition for remembrance, respect and even legacy for the monsters, who are not particularly affected by the natural disadvantages of cannibalism.
 

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