I'm Not a Villainess!! Just Because I Can Control Darkness, Doesn't Mean I'm a Villain - Vol. 2 Ch. 12.1 - Publisher 2nd Edition

[kilisloe]

You guys are looking way too much into this.

 

[hierof]

@Notsuki_Ame exactly 😂

@GodGinrai yup, agreed. 🤗

honestly, the author/mangaka/publisher should have stick to their gun. i mean, its a FANTASY-ISEKAI manga with magic, spirits, all the occult stuffs n i wanna read the author/mangaka's story n not anyone else. but was done is done n its useless to cry over split milk. hoped they didnt deviate too much from the source

 

[GodGinrai]

@hierof I mean, imagine if in the Power Rangers Movie they went back and just made the Green Ranger stay Green because people bitched about him changing colors. I'm pretty sure that would affect the suspension of disbelief, if nothing else.

 

[Morsealworth]

@Kalamel Because if you change her skin colour to a conspicuous magic seal on her face (changing to a different one after the additional blessing), the story wouldn't be as different.

Yet they try to make the effect of a blessing be relevant to racial differences that don't even exist in the story.

In the first place, the idea of attractiveness of fairer skin has nothing to do with race and was simply easier for the Asian author to use.

 

[introvertchild]

HAHAHAHA they must've received a lot of complaints

 

[Meskie]

At least they learned their lesson 😂. I hope author has heard this too. Not gonna lie, I think the author meant for the color change to be harmless but ended up causing an uproar and as a black person I'm not even mad. Tho the story would make a bit less sense now but let's hope that we still get good content later.

 

[Equilibrium]

Polcorrect outcry and propaganda censors another artwork, congrats idiots.

 

[Morsealworth]

@Meskie I wonder if you realise how racist you actually sound.

 

[Kalamel]

@Morsealworth

Because if you change her skin colour to a conspicuous magic seal on her face (changing to a different one after the additional blessing), the story wouldn't be as different.

True, but then audience probably not having as much as negative feedback and publishers might not change it based on fewer criticisms. That's probably better for most people except few who complain.

Yet they try to make the effect of a blessing be relevant to racial differences that don't even exist in the story.

They aren't, audiences did and they saw no, or at least less, problems to comply, and consider it worth.

In the first place, the idea of attractiveness of fairer skin has nothing to do with race and was simply easier for the Asian author to use.

It's complicated. It isn't originally related but then some people decided to wrongly relate it to racism, and many followed until it imply that just by usage. It is the same problem with almost all offensive vocabulary right now. One can even argue that n word isn't originally a slur, but excessive usage as offence made it is, or at least near universally recognised as one. That's problem with language, and culture in general. They evolve. The solution is hard and some might not consider it worth the efforts but we can try to reclaim them, as the term queer as I heard.

The problem is that in this case it like that while it isn't exactly the same, the fictional skin colour is extremely similar in practice and recognition to the same problem irl. Much less obvious cases can still be seen as reference to rl problems, much less this. It would be like using a homonyms of a slur and claiming that it isn't a slur. Technically you're right but might not perceived as such. As a publisher they prioritise audience receptions and I can totally understand that. I would also stand beside them even if they don't change it, as I already previously mentioned, as long as they don't trivialise the problem.

You can blame those triggered audiences for being offended by unrelated problems, but as I mentioned, it is hard not to when they using such a parallel problem. Emotion isn't always, or even regularly, logical. And it is not exactly their fault (except at least in legal actions) to be offended as many would agree it's natural to be when they play such a similar plot. Blame humans nature for that, but we must live with it.

 

[gladiatorua]

Changing it back through re-issue is a dumber move than whitewashing her in the first place. She is going full-emo now, asking sugar-daddy spirit to change her skin back in a later chapter, because she is uncomfortable would've been better.

 

[Morsealworth]

@Kalamel

True, but then audience probably not having as much as negative feedback and publishers might not change it based on fewer criticisms.

The words after "but" prove my point. Thank you for being honest.

They aren't, audiences did and they saw no, or at least less, problems to comply, and consider it worth.

So we can obviously conclude it's the audience's fault and no one else's.

It's complicated. It isn't originally related but then some people decided to wrongly relate it to racism, and many followed until it imply that just by usage.

In the other words, it's a slippery slope escalated strictly by people choosing to be offended. The same mechanic can be used against literally anything and everything, leading to total censorship and completely invalidating the whole point of free speech (and before you claim free speech exists to protect people only from government, it's not, such claim is a common mistake).

You can blame those triggered audiences for being offended by unrelated problems, but as I mentioned, it is hard not to when they using such a parallel problem. Emotion isn't always, or even regularly, logical. And it is not exactly their fault (except at least in legal actions) to be offended as many would agree it's natural to be when they play such a similar plot. Blame humans nature for that, but we must live with it.

Yes, I can and have the full moral right to blame them. In the first place, the problem is not parallel but deliberately misattributed (just like with that Pokemon that looked similar to a ganguro but was claimed to be blackface) for a certain political cause. Emotion is not logical, that's true. What's much worse, it's unverifiable. And that's exactly why it isn't supposed to hold any legal power in the first place. The next step in the slippery slope of condoning this kind of change is condoning an offended Chechen beheading a teacher who dared to show several caricatures when talking about Islam and its criticism instead of showing only one side. Not even several steps. One.
Why just one? Because the people we're talking about are deliberately seeking to be offended and use it as leverage for pressure. Violence is the direct next step. The whole reason free speech was designed to be offensive, believe it or not, was to prevent such a slippery slope. As a result, certain parties completely discarded free speech. So it tis their fault, not author's.

I really hope you understand now why I take such a position.

 

[Quelandoris]

Itt people who are really triggered that a character isn't aryan now.

 

[Kurosagiri]

Honestly Chocolate Milk is the best part in this manga that kept me reading......

 

[TanithG]

Although choccy milk Claudia is objectively better, a big part of this arc was how surface-level all these people that judged her were, right? As in, she later asks for her skin to be darker since she has always been like that and has accepted that as part of her identity, instead of keeping the lighter skin color so the rest of the vapid high society could accept her.

 

[PlanOfInaction]

Lol the reees won. Oh well. She looks better with dark skin. But at the cost of not triggering the wokes I have to wonder if it was worth it...

 

[Meskie]

@Morsealworth racist in what manner? I'm black. Anyway, you can think what you want. All I'm saying is that I'm glad that the publisher learns his lesson and hopefully the author has gotten some feedback about it.

 

[Kalamel]

@Morsealworth

Let's make a synopsis first. I don't really opposing your logic, actually I completely agree with some of them. The problem I've is about implementing the logic to the real world. This comment will be substantially unrelated to the manga so I will put it in spoiler for order of the forum.

Spoiler

Let me say that I love reason and logic and wish global civilization would take it as one and only option for solving conflict. But I am afraid of implementing logic constantly and totally in every single aspect and moment of life. I found that vision so dehumanising. As reason are things everyone supposed to agree upon, for everyone to be totally and entirely reasonable to each other would be making everyone think in the same ways and differ only in experience. That's the extremely logical conclusion I believe. So what I'll discuss with you would be mainly about degree of how much should we enforcing logic in society.

and before you claim free speech exists to protect people only from government, it's not, such claim is a common mistake

I'm assuming that you're referring to thise idiotic claims of the first amendment. I'm not an American and don't even can wrap my head around why so many Americans believe that some random sentences in their man-made law are universal law, or that it's an absolute truth and unchallengable in first place. I'd really take it as a SERIOUS INSULT that you suspect me of that mistake. I hope you understand why I can't overlook this. But if you're referring to other circumstances, then please enlighten me about it so that I can be prepared for those encounters.

just like with that Pokemon that looked similar to a ganguro but was claimed to be blackface

I don't know about that specific case, but as mentioned I'm not an American and I found entirely blackface things so stupid outside the continent. Our history might have many mistakes but to assuming that we made the same mistake as you is just plain stupid. At this point I personally found that it's less about offending black people by joking, but it's more about offending white people by reminding them of their sin. I'm not yet gathered solid evidence about that though so don't take it serious. Just don't mention about blackface.

So we can obviously conclude it's the audience's fault and no one else's.

In the other words, it's a slippery slope escalated strictly by people choosing to be offended.

I agree that there's some who's choosing to be offended and it's their fault in forcing their view on others. But there're also some real victims that don't want to be triggered but can't ignore similarities between fictional problems and their own problems irl. Feedbacks from these people are legit and probably even be weighted more by publisher over those SJW complaints or anti-cancel complaints.
While they don't have any direct legal power, they are the one who affected the most. I don't think their irl problems is something they can control and as mentioned, so do their emotions to the certain extent, so I can't say that it's their fault to be offended. I do agree with the problem that we can't properly screen legit complain from emotional victims and whining from those chosen to be offended though. But in opposite of you, just by the possibility of real victims, I'd give more weight to those negative feedback. Technically I am not condoning a step on the slippery slope, but I admit that in practice, my opinion can be viewed as the same thing. I don't think it's wrong in your logic though, because in the perfect world there would be no victims from the 'fictional' problem of injustice and their would be no offending free speech about that in first place. Speaking of free speech, I'm recommending you to read this and might read further. It isn't an easy read but they did think it through to a certain degree, outdated as they may be in some cases but still fine lessons. I admit I'm not yet form my view entirely on those concepts but I'm trying to.

Violence is the direct next step.

Violence involves violation of other rights in a way they clearly would not accepted if they are subjected to the same treatment. It is a far larger commitment and I can't agree that it is just a one step away, at least for reasonable people and those with respect to human rights of other. I'm aware that there is some circumstances that human psychology they might become a slippery step though, as the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment shown.

Excuse me for gathering my thought in hurry and not being concise as I should be. I don't have much time right now.

 

[yesir360]

Well.....

unrip chocolate milk

 

[Morsealworth]

@Kalamel First of all, thank you for giving a substantial reply. I will try to respond ad hoc as well

Spoiler

But I am afraid of implementing logic constantly and totally in every single aspect and moment of life. I found that vision so dehumanising.

While such a position is right on its own, the main reason people use well-defined laws to resolve any conflict is exactly that "more humane" illogical methods cannot be trusted and are inherently unfair. And I hope you will agree that the very fact that a publisher was forced to change an adaptation of a real world shows the existence of such conflict. So, in this particular case, logic and law is what should be governing the resolution, not sheer peer pressure. Why is that, we have already discussed previously.

I'm assuming that you're referring to thise idiotic claims of the first amendment. I'm not an American and don't even can wrap my head around why so many Americans believe that some random sentences in their man-made law are universal law, or that it's an absolute truth and unchallengable in first place. I'd really take it as a SERIOUS INSULT that you suspect me of that mistake. I hope you understand why I can't overlook this. But if you're referring to other circumstances, then please enlighten me about it so that I can be prepared for those encounters.

My apologies. I was referring exactly to that. You probably wouldn't believe how common such a mistake is. In fact, it is even common among non-Americans, who for some inexplicable reason believe the Internet is governed by American law, probably because it was originally developed by the American military and most of it is in English. Again, I am sorry to accidentally insult you by that assumption. I hope you understand why.

At this point I personally found that it's less about offending black people by joking, but it's more about offending white people by reminding them of their sin.

But it isn't even the sin of white people! Blackface was a cultural thing in one country for a pretty short time! Yet certain people, searching for things to get offended by, or rather, searching for things an imaginary black person would be offended by, as most of BLM activists aren't black themselves in the first place.

But there're also some real victims that don't want to be triggered but can't ignore similarities between fictional problems and their own problems irl. Feedbacks from these people are legit and probably even be weighted more by publisher over those SJW complaints or anti-cancel complaints.

First of all, such people don't exist in Japan. Japan is so homogenous you won't easily find European specialists, let alone Africans, and especially African Americans.
Second, people you describe wouldn't want to read this book in the first place because it was already advertised as it was. People who would get triggered would actively avoid this story, not read it anyway, get offended, and attack the publisher.
And third, in case you missed something, the main source of all complaints of this kind are the people who aren't even proper consumers most of the time, just like Anita Sarkisian isn't a gamer. They deliberately search for things to be offended by to sell hype and then their followers put pressure on companies. And as you can see from Sarkisian's example, they are far more successful than people who have legit feedback. So I don't buy that argument one bit.

Violence involves violation of other rights in a way they clearly would not accepted if they are subjected to the same treatment. It is a far larger commitment and I can't agree that it is just a one step away, at least for reasonable people and those with respect to human rights of other. I'm aware that there is some circumstances that human psychology they might become a slippery step though, as the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment shown.

I have boldened the preposition that is never met with people we're discussing. They never concern themselves with the concept and I doubt they even understand it. All they want is validation, attention, and the feeling of power they exert on others.
And by the way, Stanford experiment was a hoax. The experiment you're looking for is The Third Wave.

Still, thank you for a very interesting link.

 

[LordTartaros]

Guess who's black at it again