Imasara desu ga, Osananajimi o Suki ni Natte Shimaimashita - Ch. 26.6 - My Happy Date (Normal Version)

[wozbond]

She saw them kissing, then he disappeared for hours before confessing and going for a kiss. But he did nothing wrong yeah. She can’t even question what’s going on, she has to accept the confession asap cuz it’s not her business lol.
Yami have been missing ever since, Hikari didn’t even had the opportunity to get mad at her. Yami is worse than Yuu, it’s obvious.
Double standards about what ? She was oblivious because there were no ways for her to know about Yuu’s love life, how is it comparable to the confession ? He did notice she was off and still went for it, while she didn’t (and couldn’t) know about Yami. Not the same.
Yami on the other hand, realized everything and did the worst shit she could do before ghosting them

No, she doesn't have to accept the confession. She can just say no like a normal person instead of turning psychotic. Or are you claiming Yuu fell on the ground all by himself?

Hikari specifically abuses Yuu for not noticing all the hints she claims she's been giving off for months, when Hikari has been equally oblivious of Yuu's feelings for years. THAT is the double standard you can't bring yourself to recognise.

 

[peortega1]

I'll elaborate further later, but briefly, for me, Yuu's only real flaws (and again, he is the only one real victim here) have been:

1) His jealously guarding the fact that he failed the exam from Hikari. In my opinion, this is far worse and shows much more of the open distrust he feels for a girl he still loves, even though he knows he should have gotten over her, than hiding the entire traumatic relationship he had with Yami. Especially since it had to be revealed by a random dude that Yuu and Hikari hadn't seen in years; at least with Yami, it was Yami herself who revealed it to Hikari. And if we're talking about "failure", the relationship with Yami was also a failure, which Haru herself mocks for how brief that romance was (six months). It's not a memory that makes sense for Yuu to be proud of at all.

1.1) A reminder that throughout the entire WN, Yuu never denies having had a girlfriend. Hikari never asks him if he's ever had a girlfriend; he only says he's never received a girl's confession in chapter 1 (which was true until Hikari saw Seki confess to Yuu in chapter 12). He doesn't say it even in his confession in chapter 38. However, his "I've loved you for a long time, Hikari" could certainly have been interpreted that way, and this is what Hikari believes is a lie from Yuu. (And to be fair, is very ridicuoulus and a "I have to see it to believe it" thing, all that of Yami accepting being Yuu´s girlfriend after learn he feels attracted from both her and other girl).

2) Yuu messed up in chapters 36-38. He admits it himself in chapter 38 after Hikari pushes him. "I was definitely the worst today, wasn't I?" (a very typical line from Haruki Kitahara and Yuu Izumi. Taa-kun is an Expy from both of them). It's clear his "dead telephone" little lie was to convince Hikari to go home (to cry more because Ayami had finally dumped him) and that he hadn't expected Hikari to drag him to the dance at the gym. At this point, his plan was NOT to confess; he was too depressed and just wanted to go home. Even so, even after the dance and Hikari carrying him to the gym, he chose a bad moment to confess, and he probably knew it, so he acted in "now or never" mode.

2.1) Even worse, although it makes sense that he believed Hikari didn't see the kiss and didn't say anything about it, he now knows that Yami and Hikari are friends. Therefore, now and only now is it a matter —from his perspective— who concerns Hikari. Before this point, he had all the right to doesn´t say nothing to Hikari while she wouldn´t ask directly about it -so, he didn´t lie, he only was ambiguous with a girl who was just his friend and no more-. Thus, he should have said, "I dated a girl from your school, named Ayami Matsushita/Sudo, in first year. She is the ex-girlfriend you questioned me about when I said you about Seki (this happened in chapter 18). Anyway, she dumped me after a few months and broke my heart" as part of "the efforts I made to get over you, Hikari", and hoped that Hikari would recognize the name.

Anyway, it's amusing to see Hikari being haunted now by the same ghost that once haunted Yami, what Seki called "accidental two-timing" (polygamy), and it's probably the real source of Hikari's anger —knowing that "Taa-kun" now loves two girls at the same time: "Aya-chan" and her. She has legitimate doubts about whether Yuu chose her over Ayami, or Yuu just confessed to her as a backup plan after Yami dumped him. All of which still doesn't excuse her selfish, immature, and spoiled behavior. Hikari is obviously playing hard to get. Hikari's forgiving and understanding side only kicks in when she's begged for it, something Yami picked up on very quickly (chapter 34), and the reason why Hikari acted so selflessly, protecting the more whiny Yuu when he was a child. That's why she ran out of the gym; she couldn't endure the look of obvious pain on Yuu's face at that moment.

That's the only real reason why Hikari is compatible with Yuu and Yami, at least as a friend. They're both such crybabies. And remember: still right now Hikari is still caring for Yami and still wants she return to classes and probably she will see with good eyes Yuu is trying to make Haru and Yuki to convince "Aya-chan" to return to school. Of course, I hope both Yuu and Haru never say to her about the infamous "Yami-senpai did nothing wrong" phrase -and yes, IMO Yuu got the typo after Haru lecturing him-.

And yes, at the very least, she shouldn't have pushed Yuu or helped him up from the floor —assuming the violent push was unintentional— if she really wanted him to chase her down and come to her house to "explain everything." People here, in order to avoid admitting that Hikari messed up by PHYSICALLY ASSAULTING YUU, made up a story that she supposedly had a grand plan and was going to go back for Yuu as soon as she found Yami and "Aya-chan" told her everything... which obviously didn't happen. This proves that Hikari wasn't planning on seeing Yami in chapter 41, nor did she expect to find her still at the scene of the crime —her classroom— after all that time.

 

[peortega1]

Also, I remember you even now Hikari is still caring for "Aya-chan" wellness and she wants Yami return to school, and even thinks she feels guilty for the fact she doesn´t want see the face of Yami in this moment after all what happened. She probably will see with good eyes to Yuu asking Haru and Yuki to take care for Aya and making her return to classes.
So, if you will blame Yuu for still caring for Yami right now, at least as a friend, you should blame from the same to Hikari.
In this point we have seen much misandry, much criticize Yuu for being a "doormat" but nobody blame Hikari for really being a doormat. Of course, she is a girl, it is ok she has always been weak and passive...

 

[peortega1]

Yuu not wanting to tell Hikari about his relationships, past or present, and otherwise be lying to her, is his right, but so it is Hikari's right of not wanting to pursue a relationship with him.

HIKARI PUSHED YUU TO THE FLOOR. In that point, she lost any right. Even if he lied her, that never justify she attacking physically him in any sense. Period.
Definitely the only one of the three who never made nothing violent was Yuu, so, he is the only one victim here. You are disgusting, pathetic and you are validating violence against men.

Then we get more of the story and seems like Yuu was actually in love with Hikari? we were already lost and now it's worse.

He loves both girls in this point of the story. Even if he chose Hikari over Ayami in chapter 40, it´s very obvious this is the main problem for Hikari and the reason why Seki talks about "accidental two-timing" in
IMO, this is other foreshadowing we are going to a throuple/harem ending.
Anyway, one of the few things solidly established about Yuu personality is HE NOT BEING HORNY. The boy was literally calling "MY GIRLFRIEND" in his mind to Yami in the first hours of their relationship that morning in the love hotel in chapter 25 (and chapter 25.5 & omake chapter 4).

 

[peortega1]

When a chapter drops, people usually leave some comments about what happened and use chapter's contents to support their arguments. But here it just went to "who is to blame" without any regards to what's in the chapter, absolutely detached from it.

Because the chapter itself doesn´t really add it much, more than the discussion I am still having with story645 about if Yuu was talking with Hikari or his mom in this chapter. And also, the thing who you and me say about Yuu technically didn´t lying if he used "tomodachi" (friend) to refer Yami in a way to imply he was spending time with a girl in that moment, because both tomodachi in Japanese and friend in English are valid for both a male or a female.
While in Spanish, we have "amigO" and "amigA". The language ambiguities saved Yuu once again, hehe.
But again, the only real lie said by Yuu is the "dead phone" thing and the lies he said to hide he had sex with Yami. Nor more or less. Again, IMO he didn´t hid his relationship with Yami, but he hidded the sexual parts and he still hides it in his dialogue with Haru and Yuki in chapter 43. And again, I don´t blame him for that, and I don´t believe Hikari would do it.
Even if it will be fun, and Yami already said it to him, Yuu discovering who him not being virgin is in really an advantage for Hikari, she prefers the non-virgin and sex-affectively experienced Yuu. Hikari prefers the Taa-kun who got a girlfriend, fell in love with her, and had sex with her. Like the same name character from School Days, who was a blonde childhood friend too.

Also it's usually like us and port going in circles & we already discussed this chapter to death.

It would help if you didn´t retract from some of your arguments when seems how if finally we would go to come to an agreement, you, equal as Hikari, several times ruins your own advance. With reason you sympathize with her, hehe.
PS. And yes, all this discussion has to remember Hikari didn´t seem have problems with Yuu feeling uncomfortable to talk about his ex-girlfriend until that ex-GF ended being the current best friend of Hikari. Novel version from chapter 21 states clearly the main confussion of Hikari is not about Yuu discussing with a toxic girl, but because that girl is "Aya-chan". And Hikari definitely remembered how Aya tried to forcefully kiss her in chapter 5 in the same way she is doing with Yuu in this moment. She knows all this is probably a misunderstanding, but her selfish and passive personality ("he has to fight for me!") comes her to push Yuu when she simply could ask him directly for the kiss and his past relationship with Yami.

 

[Esgar]

This time comments are terrible. No discussion of the chapter whatsoever, just some meta shitflinging and

objectively more right

I mean yeah, would you not agree that the person who blames someone for not "fighting hard enough" to take their abuse is objectively more wrong than the person who missed an appointment and lied about the reason because it was incredibly personal?

This chapter is basically just filler showing us more of Yami's angst. If you want to discuss that, you're free to do so, but it makes sense that the topic shifts towards the giant elephant in the room that is the shit show of that confession night.

 

[peortega1]

I mean yeah, would you not agree that the person who blames someone for not "fighting hard enough" to take their abuse is objectively more wrong than the person who missed an appointment and lied about the reason because it was incredibly personal?

I mean, precisely because it was incredibly personal to Hikari too is was precisely the reason why Yuu had to talk about his past with Ayami in his confession. This is the reason why makes sense for me he just went to home after all the horrible fight with Yami and is Hikari who, taking the lead for once, forces Yuu to go first to the dance and later to the gym, only to repenting it too late. This is the reason why Yuu thinks "fuck with all, if I don´t confess now to Hikari, I won´t do never". And probably he expected things ended badly, his sorrow and grief is more for have come so close to die in the shore... so, other example of Hikari coming too late in everything.

This chapter is basically just filler showing us more of Yami's angst

This chapter is about three basic themes:
1) Yami-Yuu relationship as a role reversal/female domination relationship. Except if you believe like story645 you need a contract written by Christian Grey about who is the sub and who is the dom, is very obvious Yami was and is the dommy girlfriend and Yuu the submissive boyfriend. And if a thing Yami enjoyed, if a thing makes her truely fall in love with Yuu, is precisely because she loves being the dominant, she loves being in top, and Yuu being a boyfriend who never ask sex to her and she can control him as she wants, is the main leitmotiv of their relationship
1.1) And yes, this is why we have scenes of Yuu literally saying one of the reasons why he likes Hikari is because "you are more like a boy, Hikari". The dude definitely would have be very happy if he would have seen Hikari and Ayami crossdressed as male butlers in chapter 35. Again, only Yuu Izumi from Shikimori-san, his Expy base character, seemed so entusiastic about the idea of practically being pegged in the same way how Yuu Takamura does it.
2) The discussion about what Yuu parents learned about Yami and when they did it. As I said, if his parents were able to keep the secret of the failed exam, they were able to keep the secret about the first girlfriend who Yuu had. And of course, Yuu securely hidded the sexual parts to them and only gave to them what story645 and me called the "PG version" of their relationship -even if story645 thinks Yuu never said nothing to his parents about Aya-
3) Yami acting by jealousy if my theory of Hikari being who was in the other side of the phone, is true. This would fit better with her licking Yuu neck during the call than she wanting Yuu mother would know about the sexual activities of her son.

the topic shifts towards the giant elephant in the room that is the shit show of that confession night.

Worse. The topic shift towards about if Hikari loved Yuu in the past of Yami was right about Hikari falling in love with Yuu because he got a girlfriend and later that girlfriend dumped him and left him heart-broken. Again, her shoujo mangas have prepared Hikari for this kind of scenary. Only if the second option is true, makes sense this disaster could happen in first place.
Because Hikari already knew Yuu had an ex-girlfriend in somewhere, maybe in her school, and didn´t care much -maybe she expected Yuu would talk about it during the confession-, she was disposed to wait until Yuu felt ready to tell her and saw this as an advantage. The problem is mainly that ex-GF being the best friend of Hikari. This was who poisoned everything.

 

[peortega1]

But yes, people here forgets about the most of romcoms where real relationships are depicted, are always secret or semi-secret relationships where the parents and over all friends and other people has to pressure to the MC and FMC to say they are a couple who is dating.
Precisely Shikimori is a good example of the parents of the MC forcing him to say he had a girlfriend because he didn´t want to talk about her (and in this case, she was literally his classmate and it was a very innocent sweaty-hands relationship). Dangers in My Heart is other typical example. Insomniacs After School is other one more.
And again, helps a lot we never see Yuu denying openly he has or he had a girlfriend even in his conversations with Hikari (the only point he is explicitily shown as more evassive and ambiguous about the theme). As he himself said in chapter 28, he didn´t feel shame from being with Yami. He truely loved her and probably feels something for her even right now -yes, the poor boy has problems, and Hikari still being worried for Yami wellness, has problems too-

 

[Zikeang]

Didnt you ask for people to turn up the volume on the comments lmao. These texts dont take much out of my time and certainly dont stop me from also working and living a life. Enjoying manga, arguing about manga, it's all part of my recreation.

IMO, it's one thing to enjoy a dumpster fire, but it gets a bit more serious when people genuinely victim blame and express pretty terrible values. Such as downplaying abuse and assault, claiming that the victim was wrong because they "didnt fight back" or "let themselves be led on." All while claiming that the perpetrator was the real victim. It's backwards af.

Someone joking and saying "I can fix Yami" is lighthearted fun. Nothing wrong with liking a flawed character, as long as you treat her as such. Someone saying "Yami did nothing wrong and her victim is actually at fault" is decidedly less fun. The manga is fake, it's just a story. But the people claiming these things are real and actually think like this.

I usually stay out of these conversations, after all of those months of Yami simping with an overwhelming amount of people engaging in similar victim blaming and excusing Yami's behavior, but I think it's important to sometimes call it out and genuinely iron out the facts that we've been shown in the manga so far. When people love a character, whether it be for a fetish or whatever reason, it's easy to be blind to what's actually being written.

Yami enjoyer here to say I agree with you. I like her as a character because 0. I can fix her/she can ruin me 1. her character design/dialogue 2. flawed character with crybaby backstory 3. I liked the direction the author took by going down the Yami route when the first chapters were clearly set up to be something generic.

Im not particularly interested in who's "at fault" when it's pretty obvious. However, I still dislike Yuu as a character bc he doesn't really have all that much going on besides being indecisive and weak willed, which is way less interesting than Yami's self destructiveness.

My personal opinion is that people are far too invested in how they want a story to go, while I just want to see the author cook (and the artist to cook even harder). I'm just here for the ride. Plus trashiness aside I'm genuinely interested in seeing where it goes, wherever the fuck that may be.

That being said, my personal hope is that Yami and Hikari stay friends (despite it all) mainly bc Yami needs a friend and I think Hikari is too good of a person to let her go. Also that both of them will keep Yuu at arms length but remain friends: Hikari doesn't want him and Yami shouldn't have him.

But, when the author writes a different route, I'm not going to the comments to bitch and moan about how trashy it is and give it a 1 rating. Im probably just going to lament about how sad it is that (most likely Yami) lost everything.

Btw if y'all want more depressed trashiness, I can suggest but definitely don't recommend boy's abyss and definitely even harder don't recommend "Kimi ni Aisarete Itakatta."

That last one the characters are all kind of genuinely unlikeable and awful, but still reading just because???

Edit: Also yes, I have a fulltime job, partner and everything, as the above guy said, participating in this manga's comments is especially entertaining

 

[peortega1]

I still dislike Yuu as a character bc he doesn't really have all that much going on besides being indecisive and weak willed, which is way less interesting than Yami's self destructiveness.

I mean, this is precisely why Yami loves him and why she ended choosing Yuu over Hikari during all the cultural festival catastrophe. This is the only type of guys Yami can date. Is Yuu, other submissive beta male or she dying without more sex in her life.
And precisely the only interesting phase of Yuu to me, it was see precisely how he tried to fix Ayami and his time as her submissive boyfriend. That was the only manga arc where Yuu was a really interesting character for me and chapter 40 proves Yami - Yuu are still very interesting and dynamic. Also, is very fun it was precisely for him NOT being indecisive and weak willed, for choose clearly Hikari over Yami, that she ruined everything as the big fool she is.
You are other dude too harsh with the poor Yuu. You should be more grateful with the guy who saved Yami from became the new Sayu.

Hikari doesn't want him

Copium. Is precisely why Hikari still wants Yuu why she was so menacing -for her standards- with Yami in chapter 41. She definitely prefers Yuu over Yami. Other thing is Hikari being so stupid she thinks, like Yami before her, that using ghosting is the best way to conquer Yuu or something like that.

Yami shouldn't have him

So, she will die sexless then. Again, a throuple/harem ending probably is the better solution for all the involved -less, curiously, Yuu himself- and Yami herself suggested in chapter 39 just before screwing up all again.

 

[Zikeang]

to discuss the actual content of the chapter, idt we got anything new.

Yami is still an self-loathing emotional trainwreck that knows that she's doing damage to Yuu, but does nothing to stop it, and feels undeserving of Yuu. Nothing new here.

Yuu probably thinks he's doing all this for the love of his life, unaware of all of Yami's feelings of self-loathing.

Still love Yami tho.

 

[GennArc]

"does her toxicity negate his agency?"

I don't see how her behavior in this chapter is toxicity by any means. At worst it's a "needy girlfriend" situation, she didn't throw any tantrums or anything like that. That's why I was saying the further discussion was completely detached from the chapter's contents.

it's that she wants proof he loves her so much he's willing to do things he really doesn't want to for her

w/ a side of being willing to put himself on the line by being honest w/ her, even if it risks a fight

Not quite following you here. When she thinks "Get angry, hit me", what is supposed to be him "willing to do things he really doesn't want for her"? He doesn't want to get angry, but for her he will get angry? If being honest = going home, then that's a thing he actually wants to do, and I don't see how that's supposed to be "for her".

I mean yeah, would you not agree that the person who blames someone for not "fighting hard enough" to take their abuse is objectively more wrong than the person who missed an appointment and lied about the reason because it was incredibly personal?

Sorry for being a nerd, but "objective" means independent of anyone's perception. "Right" and "wrong" in moral sense are products of person's judgements, hence they are subjective by definition.
If it was objective, you wouldn't have to ask my opinion or argue with anyone.

 

[Zikeang]

I mean, this is precisely why Yami loves him and why she ended choosing Yuu over Hikari during all the cultural festival catastrophe. This is the only type of guys Yami can date. Is Yuu, other submissive beta male or she dying without more sex in her life.
And precisely the only interesting phase of Yuu to me, it was see precisely how he tried to fix Ayami and his time as her submissive boyfriend. That was the only manga arc where Yuu was a really interesting character for me and chapter 40 proves Yami - Yuu are still very interesting and dynamic. Also, is very fun it was precisely for him NOT being indecisive and weak willed, for choose clearly Hikari over Yami, that she ruined everything as the big fool she is.
You are other dude too harsh with the poor Yuu. You should be more grateful with the guy who saved Yami from became the new Sayu.

y'know what, I actually agree with you, apart from the use of the term beta male bc that's cringe asf but I get your point.

I'm in agreement that the Yuu-Yami dynamic was the most interesting since you had the trainwreck girlfriend and simp boyfriend who'd do anything for her. You had two flawed people licking each others wounds that you know was only going to end poorly but they were happily depressed together, which is romantic in a special way I suppose.

It is 100% copium to say Hikari doesn't want Yuu, I'm hoping for her sake that she gets over him and realizes that he's a waste of time.

Hikari is a little dumb and a little thick, but at the end of the day I don't think she really deserved all the hand she was dealt. How was she supposed to know that him not getting into the school would be such a major catastrophic blow to their relationship? I understand that she also has an opportunity to confess instead of playing these games, but how the fuck was she supposed to know about all these hurdles Yuu set up for himself (honestly my most hated trope).

So yeah, I can't help but feel bad for Hikari bc she had an innocent, dumb crush, while Yuu's being an actual indecisive dumbass and immediately fell for an emotional trainwreck with a fuck ton of baggage, who happened to become her friend later on.

I also don't think no yuu == sexless, unless by dying sexless you mean she takes her own life. Given her past behavior and the tone of the manga, I think it's a given that if she Hikari or if she loses Yuu, she will spiral in some way, most likely finding guy after guy to soothe her loneliness and fill the void without emotional attachment to anyone. Bleak but given what I've seen I don't think it's that unlikely.

So, for everyone's sake I'm hoping everyone stays friends, Yuu needs to grow a spine and a pair, Hikari needs to treat herself better and find someone that isn't indecisive and knows what he wants, and Yami just needs a friend before she should get into another relationship.

 

[story645]

her behavior in this chapter is toxicity by any means

A lot of folks would read a girlfriend wanting her boyfriend to "get angry at me, hit me" as deeply unhinged.

what is supposed to be him "willing to do things he really doesn't want for her"?

He's supposed to be unhappy w/ some of her asks but make the sacrifice to do them. Fight with her b/c she's being unreasonable but not dump her b/c he loves her.

going home, then that's a thing he actually wants to do,

He immediately backs down when she points out the hickey, which makes the situation read like he's giving in to keep her a secret, which causes her to spiral out into insecurity about him giving in. The fight here would be "no, it's okay if they see the hickey, I gotta get home".

several times ruins your own advance.

?

she will spiral in some way, most likely finding guy after guy to soothe her loneliness and fill the void without emotional attachment to anyone

Yeah like she threw herself at Yuu after knowing him for like an hour at most. And formed an immensely codependent relationship w/ Hikari b/c Hikari passed her prank test. If not Yuu/Hikari, then Aya will just move onto her next "savior".

Yami just needs a friend before she should get into another relationship

Also a therapist so that she can learn to trust the friends she has & stop destroying all her relationships.

 

[Esgar]

Yami enjoyer here to say I agree with you. I like her as a character because 0. I can fix her/she can ruin me 1. her character design/dialogue 2. flawed character with crybaby backstory 3. I liked the direction the author took by going down the Yami route when the first chapters were clearly set up to be something generic.

Im not particularly interested in who's "at fault" when it's pretty obvious. However, I still dislike Yuu as a character bc he doesn't really have all that much going on besides being indecisive and weak willed, which is way less interesting than Yami's self destructiveness.

My personal opinion is that people are far too invested in how they want a story to go, while I just want to see the author cook (and the artist to cook even harder). I'm just here for the ride. Plus trashiness aside I'm genuinely interested in seeing where it goes, wherever the fuck that may be.

That being said, my personal hope is that Yami and Hikari stay friends (despite it all) mainly bc Yami needs a friend and I think Hikari is too good of a person to let her go. Also that both of them will keep Yuu at arms length but remain friends: Hikari doesn't want him and Yami shouldn't have him.

But, when the author writes a different route, I'm not going to the comments to bitch and moan about how trashy it is and give it a 1 rating. Im probably just going to lament about how sad it is that (most likely Yami) lost everything.

Btw if y'all want more depressed trashiness, I can suggest but definitely don't recommend boy's abyss and definitely even harder don't recommend "Kimi ni Aisarete Itakatta."

That last one the characters are all kind of genuinely unlikeable and awful, but still reading just because???

Edit: Also yes, I have a fulltime job, partner and everything, as the above guy said, participating in this manga's comments is especially entertaining

This is an opinion I can respect. I think that Yuu is pretty OK, suffering from not being given much space in the manga. Overall, his actions are not really that bad, in some ways actually quite impressive for a kid his age. I would not be quick to dismiss him, but I definitely understand how people may not find him interesting.

 

[Esgar]

I don't see how her behavior in this chapter is toxicity by any means. At worst it's a "needy girlfriend" situation, she didn't throw any tantrums or anything like that. That's why I was saying the further discussion was completely detached from the chapter's contents.


Not quite following you here. When she thinks "Get angry, hit me", what is supposed to be him "willing to do things he really doesn't want for her"? He doesn't want to get angry, but for her he will get angry? If being honest = going home, then that's a thing he actually wants to do, and I don't see how that's supposed to be "for her".


Sorry for being a nerd, but "objective" means independent of anyone's perception. "Right" and "wrong" in moral sense are products of person's judgements, hence they are subjective by definition.
If it was objective, you wouldn't have to ask my opinion or argue with anyone.

Sure, I used the word loosely, you're right about that. I used the term to insinuate that "any rational person understands the difference in harm here." As for asking people's opinions, you will have people argue with you that gravity doesn't exist. It can be verified independently of people's opinions, but whether people argue with you about it is not a good metric for objectivity.

But we do have a situation were you do have some hard facts here.

There is Yuu that was actively harmed by Yami. And then there is Yami that blames Yuu, the person that she hurt, for not taking more of it from her. That's supposedly her "being hurt" by him, as claimed by other commenters here.

Objectively speaking, there is only one person that actively harmed the other, unless you want to argue that Yuu's "not fighting hard enough" to get back with his abuser is equivalent to him harming her. It would also be incorrect, as he tried to reach out to her for months. Hence we can definitely state that in the case of Yami and Yuu, there is only one case where you can honestly say that one harmed the other: Yami harmed Yuu.

Going further, I do actually think that it is accurate to say that "objectively speaking" Yuu is also the only person here who was maliciously and knowingly harmed by another in this trio. No matter how "hurt" the other two feel, it is objectively true that he did not knowingly or maliciously harm them. Now comes my subjective part: I do not think that they are justified in blaming him for feeling hurt and I do not think that his white lie about why he missed his appointment constitutes harm at all.

Beyond that, I think that the fact that I even need to explain this is absurd enough. The fact that the victim is not the abuser should be self-evident. So it's rather silly of you to insinuate that this is the most absurd passage out of all of the comments here, when others have the genuine facts of what happened in the story so immensely backwards. Not to mention the values shown here lol. I would argue that people claiming that Yuu harmed Yami should raise your eyebrows more than the semantics of the word "objectively."

Unless of course, you are a "there is no objective truth" extremist and think that nothing that has been done to Yuu can be categorized as negative, because "everything is subjective." You can always get bogged down in semantics, arguing about what "harm" is and whether "harm" even exists, because it is "subjective." Someone will think that Yami slitting Yuu's throat is not harm and that him looking in her direction is. You could say that this is subjective and you would be right, but it's also such an absurd statement from a rational point of view that arguing that it is "subjective" becomes meaningless and a waste of time. I think you probably understand how ridiculous that is.

 

[GennArc]

A lot of folks would read a girlfriend wanting her boyfriend to "get angry at me, hit me" as deeply unhinged.

She thinks that, doesn't say that, and doesn't express dissatisfaction when he doesn't do it (in fact, the opposite). So I can't see it as toxic at all.

He's supposed to be unhappy w/ some of her asks but make the sacrifice to do them. Fight with her b/c she's being unreasonable but not dump her b/c he loves her.

The fight here would be "no, it's okay if they see the hickey, I gotta get home".

From your words it kinda feels like he is making a sacrifice for her sake and is unhappy about it, when what he is actually doing is just finding an opportunity to spend more time with his girlfriend. I don't think he is unhappy about it. He is not doing what is "right", but he isn't doing anything selfless either.

I used the term to insinuate that "any rational person understands the difference in harm here."

People tend to use this term to make their opinion sound more important/right. When it's just an opinion, which is subjective by definition.

Objectively speaking, there is only one person that actively harmed the other

What exactly do you mean by "actively harmed" and why is it worse than "passively harmed"?

Yuu is also the only person here who was maliciously and knowingly harmed by another in this trio

In the whole manga there was only one attempt to "maliciously" harm another, and that was Yami to Hikari in chapter 33.

So it's rather silly of you to insinuate that this is the most absurd passage out of all of the comments here, when others have the genuine facts of what happened in the story so immensely backwards.

Mate, you seriously need to rethink what words "fact", "objective" and "subjective" mean. You're trying to present your intepretations (=opinions) as facts, and then you get frustrated at others having different interpretations (which is understandable if we disregard the previous part).
An example of a fact: Yami ghosted Yuu
An interpretation: Yami ghosted Yuu because her mother attempted suicide and she wanted to atone for that
Fact: Yuu met Yami in their classroom and it led to her kissing him and Hikari seeing that kiss
Interpretation: Yuu/Hikari/Yami got hurt by what happened in that classroom, Yami/Hikari/Yuu acted maliciously, Yami/Hikari/Yuu harmed another

You can always get bogged down in semantics, arguing about what "harm" is and whether "harm" even exists, because it is "subjective." Someone will think that Yami slitting Yuu's throat is not harm and that him looking in her direction is. You could say that this is subjective and you would be right, but it's also such an absurd statement from a rational point of view that arguing that it is "subjective" becomes meaningless and a waste of time. I think you probably understand how ridiculous that is.

You see, people here are arguing about who harmed who exactly because it's not "objective". If it was, there'd be no arguing. And it's good that it's subjective, because objective statements/facts aren't worth discussing, they are just facts.

I think Hikari hurt Yuu by never noticing his feelings and not treating him like a boy, Yuu hurt Yami by not treating their relationship as seriously as she did, Yami hurt Yuu by ghosting him, Yami hurt Hikari by kissing Yuu, Yuu hurt Hikari by lying and never telling her about his relationship with Yami. These are not facts, just interpretations, and I'm sure you and many others are gonna disagree about some of these. But we're having these discussions precisely because it's interesting to explore different opinions and argue about them.

 

[story645]

So I can't see it as toxic at all.

The thinking it is pretty unhealthy in and of itself and that sorta thinking doesn't just pop up randomly. Also, we've had this argument on loop but this is another thread of her feeling insecure, which culminates in her testing him w/ moving in together.

He is not doing what is "right", but he isn't doing anything selfless either.

Yeah that's my point. Aya is insecure b/c she's thinking he's going along w/ her just to go w/ the flow/not rock the boat. Not b/c, for example, he deeply prefers spending more time w/ her over the neighbors. What she's after is validation that Yuu will stick w/ her even if she pushes his boundaries, but that doesn't work if she never actually pushes his boundaries.

 

[Esgar]

She thinks that, doesn't say that, and doesn't express dissatisfaction when he doesn't do it (in fact, the opposite). So I can't see it as toxic at all.


From your words it kinda feels like he is making a sacrifice for her sake and is unhappy about it, when what he is actually doing is just finding an opportunity to spend more time with his girlfriend. I don't think he is unhappy about it. He is not doing what is "right", but he isn't doing anything selfless either.


People tend to use this term to make their opinion sound more important/right. When it's just an opinion, which is subjective by definition.

What exactly do you mean by "actively harmed" and why is it worse than "passively harmed"?

In the whole manga there was only one attempt to "maliciously" harm another, and that was Yami to Hikari in chapter 33.

Mate, you seriously need to rethink what words "fact", "objective" and "subjective" mean. You're trying to present your intepretations (=opinions) as facts, and then you get frustrated at others having different interpretations (which is understandable if we disregard the previous part).
An example of a fact: Yami ghosted Yuu
An interpretation: Yami ghosted Yuu because her mother attempted suicide and she wanted to atone for that
Fact: Yuu met Yami in their classroom and it led to her kissing him and Hikari seeing that kiss
Interpretation: Yuu/Hikari/Yami got hurt by what happened in that classroom, Yami/Hikari/Yuu acted maliciously, Yami/Hikari/Yuu harmed another

You see, people here are arguing about who harmed who exactly because it's not "objective". If it was, there'd be no arguing. And it's good that it's subjective, because objective statements/facts aren't worth discussing, they are just facts.

I think Hikari hurt Yuu by never noticing his feelings and not treating him like a boy, Yuu hurt Yami by not treating their relationship as seriously as she did, Yami hurt Yuu by ghosting him, Yami hurt Hikari by kissing Yuu, Yuu hurt Hikari by lying and never telling her about his relationship with Yami. These are not facts, just interpretations, and I'm sure you and many others are gonna disagree about some of these. But we're having these discussions precisely because it's interesting to explore different opinions and argue about them.

Mate, you seriously need to rethink what words "fact", "objective" and "subjective" mean. You're trying to present your intepretations (=opinions) as facts, and then you get frustrated at others having different interpretations (which is understandable if we disregard the previous part).

I provided you with a clear distinction between objective episodes that happened in the story and my subjective interpretation of said episodes. I'm frustrated with both other people's interpretations of what happened and clearly incorrect recounting of what happened in the story.

What exactly do you mean by "actively harmed" and why is it worse than "passively harmed"?

A person may exist with a haircut that happens to annoy another person. Their existence is "harming" another, yet it's not an active action that said person made in order to harm another. Active harm necessarily involves the intent to do harm, making it inherently worse. You may argue at length about how that is subjective, of course, since that's so important to you.

Yuu hurt Yami by not treating their relationship as seriously as she did

We're not reading the same series. He was very much in love with her while she treated it as a hedonistic outlet. We're exclusively shown him taking it very seriously, wanting to escalate the relationship, while she was clearly inconsistent with him, leading him on while avoiding said escalation. She was lying to herself, but she nonetheless displayed a very clear lack of commitment while he was ready to go above and beyond for her. I could break it down scene by scene and prove it to you, if I had the time, but any independent reader of this manga can verify this. Instead of getting bogged down by semantics, maybe you should try actually reading the series. Again, claiming that the victim was the abuser is just not a very good argument, a morally and logically inconsistent one that I think far surpasses my choice of wording in that first comment in terms of absurdity.

Interpretation: Yuu/Hikari/Yami got hurt by what happened in that classroom, Yami/Hikari/Yuu acted maliciously, Yami/Hikari/Yuu harmed another

Just because something is subjective doesnt mean that the interpretation is rational. To claim that Yuu "acted maliciously" because Yami met him in that classroom (he did not seek her out) and assaulted him, leading to those circumstances hurting Hikari is an absurdity. That's not Yuu "acting" in any way. That's him being a recipient of abuse. Not an action and certainly not involving any intent on his part.

The only part that can be an "interpretation" of passive harm is him lying to Hikari about what happened (which was still objectively not a malicious action towards her btw; we are not shown any indication of the opposite). Which is why I detailed my subjective interpretation of this "passive harm" that he caused: that he cannot be blamed for it and that Hikari is unreasonable for doing so.

You see, people here are arguing about who harmed who exactly because it's not "objective". If it was, there'd be no arguing.

I think this is a very good example of why arguing is not a good metric for objectivity, as people can easily argue about things and be wrong about the facts.

You are right in that most of this is subjective, but your interpretations are very odd from a rational standpoint, disregarding genuine facts about what happened in the story. However, it does explain why you started out by focusing on semantics rather than addressing my other points, as your arguments in this comment are very weak and seemingly stem from a pure desire to find blame in Yuu for something in all of this, leading to you grasping at straws. I think you know this yourself. I've explained things at length in previous comments, so I do not think I need to reiterate for any reader here any further.

 

[GennArc]

The thinking it is pretty unhealthy in and of itself and that sorta thinking doesn't just pop up randomly.

People can think all sorts of things especially in the heat of the moment. If it doesn't show and doesn't affect other people, it's not toxic. Can we at least agree on that?

Yeah that's my point. Aya is insecure b/c she's thinking he's going along w/ her just to go w/ the flow/not rock the boat.

I would've admitted you have a point here if the chapter ended with her "don't give in so easily..." line. But she continues on about his kindness and looking after her, which is incompatible with "going with the flow" imo.

We're not reading the same series. He was very much in love with her while she treated it as a hedonistic outlet. We're exclusively shown him taking it very seriously, wanting to escalate the relationship, while she was clearly inconsistent with him. She was lying to herself, but she displayed a very clear lack of commitment while he was ready to go above and beyond for her.

We sure aren't. She was the one who didn't sleep for three days in their trip because sleeping would mean losing precious time with him, she was the one seriously proposing to live together. He was in love with her, but definitely not as strongly as she was with him.

Instead of getting bogged down by semantics, maybe you should try actually reading the series.

That's a bold statement, I hope you at least read the novel version to be able to claim having read the series?

Just because something is subjective doesnt mean that the interpretation is rational. To claim that Yuu "acted maliciously" because Yami met him in that classroom (he did not seek her out) and assaulted him, leading to those circumstances hurting Hikari is an absurdity.

I wasn't saying those were rational, I was simply saying that "X harmed Y" or "X acted maliciously towards Y" are interpretations, not facts.

as your arguments in this comment are very weak

Which arguments are weak?

seemingly stem from a pure desire to find blame in Yuu for something in all of this

If you check my first comment in this chain, I was talking about just that - that I dislike the whole discussion being about "who is to blame?". I enjoy observing characters and empathizing with them instead of being a moral judge. That's also why I can tell that character X might've been hurt by character Y, instead of going reeeee X is innocent and Y is guilty.