Isekai Kenkokuki - Ch. 61.2

[Tatsuya-Kai]

Talking about democracy and all that is of little practical value. Almus's lifespan isn't enough to see it done. The Greek democracy only worked in the city-states, more or less, and it has always been a matter of debate just how much of a democracy it was, instead of a, for example, extremely wide oligarchy/plutocracy. Nevertheless, Almus's countrymen now have no culture of anything like that.

I always thought he would go for absolute monarchy, without feudalism, that is, for his idea of centralisation of power, and... Well, that's pretty much it since he would die of old age before he could start to turn it into democracy. Random villages might already have councils of elders, which he could twist into a more democratic direction. However, there's certainly no magic way to turn the whole Rosice kingdom into a functional democracy in mere years and then have the neighbouring countries' commoners revolt, throw away their rulers, and join Rosice.

If he manages to pull off absolute monarchy, he just needs to have regions overseen by governors, whose positions are not inheritable. Such a governor might be a noble, but the noble's son would need to work damn hard if he wanted to get his dad's position eventually.

I think what his goal is from what i heard is likely something similar to pre-victorian england(aka england when the monarch still had power over the houses), a house of commoners, a house of lords/nobles and the royal house which can overrule the other 2.
House of commons dealing with the situations of the people, the house of lords dealing with things that involve noble tasks and the monarch who has overarching power over both, as well as the ability to declare war if need be.
Essentially this sounds like pre roman republic rome, though his ultimate goal may be the roman republic (which like you said was more closer to a oligarchy than a true republic, then again most republics these days could count as that too).

 

[AnotherDuck]

that is a constitutional republic, not a democratic kingdom... you'd be democratically electing a king who has absolute power to serve the rest of his life out of various family candidates if that were the case

You can call it what you want; it was a monarchy with an elected king. The "people" had the right to elect and depose the king, and the once who elected were the precursors to nobility (uradel). Calling it a "council" as I did is probably not the right word, though. This was true up until Gustav Vasa, after which it was hereditary.

 

[Esper]

I dont know if this manga ever had nipples or it was censored but can't they at least add a leaf or a convenient ray of light instead of those lame white blotches that look like they were added in with windows paint 98 ? IMO it really kills the immersion ( for the lack of a better word)

It's unfortunately always had the white circles over the nips. It's not like they have been particularly common though. Very few chapters have nudity.
This is a translation of the web version. It's possible the "tank" versions you can buy on Amazon have the nipples visible. I haven't seen the previous chapters in that format though.

 

[Ironclad]

Oh I get it now. Even with bartering, the underlying source of wealth and power is still land which resides with nobility. Coinage is the first step to mercantilism and the autonomy of commoners.

 

[dsfargeg]

It's not the best, it's just the least bad. Nobody has come up with a better one yet that also works in practice. It's the least corrupt as well. It has the potential to be the most equal, but equality depends on other things as well, and not all equality is good. A piss-poor, ravaged dictatorship could have more equality than a democracy with extreme income disparity, but most still wouldn't like to live in a stick wall shack in the dictatorship, instead of seeking their opportunity in the democracy.

The best system of government is a good king. The worst system of government is a bad king.

 

[Kaarme]

The best system of government is a good king. The worst system of government is a bad king.

What is a system of a good king? That system covers his own castle, barely. What does it do for the whole country? When you give a single person absolute power, it means everyone under him/her is also looking for similar power, should that fit their personality, and they would rightfully do so. How can you guarantee all of them are "good" as well? A king is a king only as long as he can keep suppressing those who would replace him. Just like a dictator, because that's what a king basically is, only with a fancier title and all kinds of ceremonies and historical justifications. When you assume you have absolute power to control other people's lives, you must also assume your legitimacy only stands as long as you can enforce it. Enforcing it may be quite gruesome.

This is vastly different compared to democracy where the rulers only rule for a limited period of time, under the direct blessing of the majority of the people. You could still technically say the minority, who lost in the voting process, is oppressed, but that's why the constitutions (or other laws) of democracies have elections periodically, so that the losers merely need to wait for the next chance. They don't need to take up arms to risk their lives to change the rulers by violence.

When I say democracy, I mean representative democracy. Direct democracies are extremely rare and, honestly, unless it's an obscenely rich place like Switzerland, where practically everyone is a millionaire, it's probably not worth it. Imagine reading a thousand pages of complicated text every year simply so that you could vote smartly on things that don't necessarily interest you personally, but you still must have an opinion, and it better be a good one because it could have significant consequences.

 

[JustNatsuki]

Does anyone else prefer scruffy Tetra more than hot spring Tetra?

The first time I haven’t liked a bathing scene in a while lol

 

[dsfargeg]

What is a system of a good king? That system covers his own castle, barely. What does it do for the whole country? When you give a single person absolute power, it means everyone under him/her is also looking for similar power, should that fit their personality, and they would rightfully do so. How can you guarantee all of them are "good" as well? A king is a king only as long as he can keep suppressing those who would replace him. Just like a dictator, because that's what a king basically is, only with a fancier title and all kinds of ceremonies and historical justifications. When you assume you have absolute power to control other people's lives, you must also assume your legitimacy only stands as long as you can enforce it. Enforcing it may be quite gruesome.

This is vastly different compared to democracy where the rulers only rule for a limited period of time, under the direct blessing of the majority of the people. You could still technically say the minority, who lost in the voting process, is oppressed, but that's why the constitutions (or other laws) of democracies have elections periodically, so that the losers merely need to wait for the next chance. They don't need to take up arms to risk their lives to change the rulers by violence.

When I say democracy, I mean representative democracy. Direct democracies are extremely rare and, honestly, unless it's an obscenely rich place like Switzerland, where practically everyone is a millionaire, it's probably not worth it. Imagine reading a thousand pages of complicated text every year simply so that you could vote smartly on things that don't necessarily interest you personally, but you still must have an opinion, and it better be a good one because it could have significant consequences.

im not going to waste my time reading this lmao
If you're responding to a koan with a wall of text there's like 98% odds you failed to understand it and you're falling into the mindtrap of "what system we should use to let evil people rule us" instead of asking "how do we give power to good people."

 

[JustNatsuki]

Also, Tetra's tits got nerfed.

Wasn’t she always in the realm of small to flat?

 

[JustNatsuki]

i don't get these isekai stories where the MC becomes a king and he wants to push for democracy, do you not know what happens to kings when democracy becomes a thing? if they're lucky they will be deposed, if unlucky theirs and their family's heads will be put on pikes.

Taiwan used to be a dictatorship and then one dude said we should do democracy and the dictators said sure why not we cool and then now Taiwan is now a democracy

The previous dictators weren’t killed by the people. He died from kidney failure at nearly 90 years old, and his son (his successor), died from heart attack at nearly 80.

 

[Kaarme]

im not going to waste my time reading this lmao
If you're responding to a koan with a wall of text there's like 98% odds you failed to understand it and you're falling into the mindtrap of "what system we should use to let evil people rule us" instead of asking "how do we give power to good people."

Yeah, sure, whatever you say. I can deduce from this comment of yours that you live in a dictatorship, in a privileged position, so we will never see eye to eye.

 

[JustNatsuki]

I dont know if this manga ever had nipples or it was censored but can't they at least add a leaf or a convenient ray of light instead of those lame white blotches that look like they were added in with windows paint 98 ? IMO it really kills the immersion ( for the lack of a better word)

I just find it funny you’re expecting immersion in a manga

 

[JustNatsuki]

Huh. So it seems like Yuria swings both ways. And Tetra doesn't seem to mind at all. Very very good!

That said, though....

I forget, did Almus reveal that he's from another world to his two wives? Because to suddenly be name-dropping the Greeks and talking about their political system, and these two not even bat an eyelash seems kinda weird to me.

I think he told Tetra and his gang. Not sure about Yuria tho

 

[jonsmth]

i don't get these isekai stories where the MC becomes a king and he wants to push for democracy, do you not know what happens to kings when democracy becomes a thing? if they're lucky they will be deposed, if unlucky theirs and their family's heads will be put on pikes.
you want to centralize power not weaken it further, you should build an academy in the capital and mandate that all noble children have to attend it, also make it so all noble families have to have residences in the capital and have to spend X amount of time out of the year there.

Japan is probably the best example of a democracy with a reigning monarch. It was also the best example of a nation where the nobles controlled it and overruled the monarch without killing them. Not everything went by the way of the French revolution.

As for your academy idea - I take it that you mean that the noble children should be indoctrinated. Why stop at nobles? Indoctrinate and brainwash everyone. Keep everyone's thoughts under control. Invest R&D into propaganda. Do parades and demonstrations, showing off Almus' divinity and superhuman strength.

If that's not what you wanted out of the academy and you only want them genuinely educated, all that would do is arm their ambitions with tools. Arming the commoners with prosperity and political power would be more effective as the inherent classism would put them at odds with nobles even if they may share the same political views. Having an opponent for the nobles is much better than having Almus directly keep their power in check. Democracy might just actually be the most efficient way to centralize power without having to resort to unpopular purges (like what they did to Dibel).

 

[dsfargeg]

Yeah, sure, whatever you say. I can deduce from this comment of yours that you live in a dictatorship, in a privileged position, so we will never see eye to eye.

Wrong on all counts, I spent most of my 20s homeless. I diagnose you with severe ideologue and comfort-induced atrophied amygdala. I prescribe you a manual labor job with a high chance of injury such as carpentry or welding so that you grow into a human being.

 

[HYBRID_BEING]

Well, that's pretty much it since he would die of old age before he could start to turn it into democracy.

Aside from the possibility of him living for a long time due to blessing, that's what the talks about successor are for

 

[Kaarme]

Aside from the possibility of him living for a long time due to blessing, that's what the talks about successor are for

Yeah, but the successor would be a genuine person of that world. Almus is only what he is due to being isekaied. That's why he misses democracy and other such things he was familiar with. The successor wouldn't even understand that from his own personal experience. Almus could teach him about it, but it would be nothing but esoteric book knowledge. The successor definitely wouldn't miss or feel emotional about it, at all. So, he would basically lack any personal motivation to take the country to that direction.

Meelin's specific blessing seemed to be immortality (within reason), so it didn't immediately occur to me Almus might get such a benefit as a side effect. But I suppose it's not entirely unrelated to becoming more powerful the more faithful followers he has.

 

[Doomer]

Japan is probably the best example of a democracy with a reigning monarch. It was also the best example of a nation where the nobles controlled it and overruled the monarch without killing them. Not everything went by the way of the French revolution.

As for your academy idea - I take it that you mean that the noble children should be indoctrinated. Why stop at nobles? Indoctrinate and brainwash everyone. Keep everyone's thoughts under control. Invest R&D into propaganda. Do parades and demonstrations, showing off Almus' divinity and superhuman strength.

If that's not what you wanted out of the academy and you only want them genuinely educated, all that would do is arm their ambitions with tools. Arming the commoners with prosperity and political power would be more effective as the inherent classism would put them at odds with nobles even if they may share the same political views. Having an opponent for the nobles is much better than having Almus directly keep their power in check. Democracy might just actually be the most efficient way to centralize power without having to resort to unpopular purges (like what they did to Dibel).

more then indoctrination i'm thinking of it as a forced hostage situation, all the children of the nobles will be within your grasp, not only would you be able to make the kids loyal but if the parents do something stupid it would be the end of their line.

 

[HYBRID_BEING]

Yeah, but the successor would be a genuine person of that world. Almus is only what he is due to being isekaied. That's why he misses democracy and other such things he was familiar with. The successor wouldn't even understand that from his own personal experience. Almus could teach him about it, but it would be nothing but esoteric book knowledge. The successor definitely wouldn't miss or feel emotional about it, at all. So, he would basically lack any personal motivation to take the country to that direction.

Meelin's specific blessing seemed to be immortality (within reason), so it didn't immediately occur to me Almus might get such a benefit as a side effect. But I suppose it's not entirely unrelated to becoming more powerful the more faithful followers he has.

Well, everything has to start somewhere. All depends on how Almus would convey his vision, how he would go about the transition and handling negative side-effects, and what he would achieve while in power.

TBH, I've no idea if author has given a thorough thought to the matter, so all our discussions here might be moot.

 

[YamiRi]

ah yeah.. the most difficult chapter to understand because of so many distractions while they are talking about democracy.