Isekai Kenkokuki - Vol. 3 Ch. 23.2
- Thread starter MangaDex
- Start date
@ninjadork Citizen armies are better proven by Napoleon victories over Europe. But i concede that before industrial era it can depends on the state of the country if you are Sparta or Swiss in general you can remark they are conscript citizen and while the Swiss guard are mercenary they are before all Swiss citizens.
Source : http://www.socsci.uci.edu/~davant/pub/11_avant_io.pdf
And Ottoman empire don't rely too much on mercenaries by the way.
Source : http://www.socsci.uci.edu/~davant/pub/11_avant_io.pdf
And Ottoman empire don't rely too much on mercenaries by the way.
@Kamelpov None of the examples you list are conscripts. The Napoleonic citizen armies you mention had access to one of the best technique/tool sets for making green soldiers into an effective military force; firearms and regimental organization, especially in the forms of artillery and squad tactics. What's more, despite their designation as citizen armies they were much closer to professional soldiers than to conscripts; they were payed on a regular basis for their performance, and while they tended to operate more like raised militias they were trained and supplied in a manner reminiscent of the regular army.
Spartan soldiers and Swiss citizens would be more accurately called nationalized militias. Aside from the lack of firearms and some of the specific quirks of regimental orgs, they were supplied and organized much the same as the Napoleonic citizen armies, which is to say in a manner reminiscent of a standing professional army.
And the Ottoman Empire didn't rely on mercenaries because they had a huge stock of slave soldiers taken from conquered families - namely, the Janissaries. When you have access to a large supply of fanatical troops that have been kidnapped as children, as well as brutally indoctrinated and trained from a young age, you have many of the same things that make good mercenaries with none of those pesky costs . The costs are lowered even further when any wealth acquired by the Janissaries usually comes in the form of plunder and pillage, which doesn't need to be part of a strict budget.
Spartan soldiers and Swiss citizens would be more accurately called nationalized militias. Aside from the lack of firearms and some of the specific quirks of regimental orgs, they were supplied and organized much the same as the Napoleonic citizen armies, which is to say in a manner reminiscent of a standing professional army.
And the Ottoman Empire didn't rely on mercenaries because they had a huge stock of slave soldiers taken from conquered families - namely, the Janissaries. When you have access to a large supply of fanatical troops that have been kidnapped as children, as well as brutally indoctrinated and trained from a young age, you have many of the same things that make good mercenaries with none of those pesky costs . The costs are lowered even further when any wealth acquired by the Janissaries usually comes in the form of plunder and pillage, which doesn't need to be part of a strict budget.
Active member
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2018
- Messages
- 179
I raised my eyebrow too at the conscripts being high morale. But the comparison is mercenaries. Not paid professional soldiers, mercenaries - there's a difference. Mercenaries are not known for high morale either. Money is no good if you're dead. Machiavelli hated mercenaries because are unreliable as soldiers and a major reason why Italy took so long to to re-unify.
@ninjadork Mercenaries are linked to the fall of the eastern roman empire.
RhoninFire said it right too their moral are unreliable when tide turn compared to the peasant concerned by looters (mainly mercs or infidels) Got even traitors (king's ransom are always good) for their case. Loyalty don't have a price.
And conscript can be professionalized as you say too as your earlier post described this. Even wargames use conscript and if we choose to train or not them it can be a good asset in case of war and israel use his own citizens still hold his own. This manga is before medieval level so yes citizens armies are better even play total war and other grand strategy games mercenaries are shit "good meatgrinder" only when you run out of manpower or require unit fast at a premium.
Conscript : citizen armies or pesant
Mercenaries : Other guys that are here for the money
Professionalism : A value to describe how they are organised and whatever training they have (conscript and mercenaries can have it) you can even see that in europa universalis 4 with all dlc incuding art of war.
RhoninFire said it right too their moral are unreliable when tide turn compared to the peasant concerned by looters (mainly mercs or infidels) Got even traitors (king's ransom are always good) for their case. Loyalty don't have a price.
And conscript can be professionalized as you say too as your earlier post described this. Even wargames use conscript and if we choose to train or not them it can be a good asset in case of war and israel use his own citizens still hold his own. This manga is before medieval level so yes citizens armies are better even play total war and other grand strategy games mercenaries are shit "good meatgrinder" only when you run out of manpower or require unit fast at a premium.
Conscript : citizen armies or pesant
Mercenaries : Other guys that are here for the money
Professionalism : A value to describe how they are organised and whatever training they have (conscript and mercenaries can have it) you can even see that in europa universalis 4 with all dlc incuding art of war.
Member
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2018
- Messages
- 76
that eyes and kiss is like screaming "SAVE ME"
Aggregator gang
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2018
- Messages
- 1,755
Calma! Calma! everyone, not to worry, like always MC power is going to be at work, so no love will fail to succeed.
@Kamelpov Using the Total War games as a demonstration of your baseline is both a very illuminating and very bad choice.
See, the issue here is that you keep making an unspoken decision to use what I call Opportunists as your sole point of comparison. Just like the Total War devs, you're ignoring the notable chunk of Professionals that is always present. Opportunist Mercenaries contributed to the fall of Byzantium because the ruling class at the time was so sunk in backstabbing political nonsense that they were incapable of telling the difference between the two, or dealing with them in good faith. Too many Opportunist mercenaries hired, too many broken deals, too many weaknesses brought out in the open.
Also, if anybody is using this manga as a point to claim that conscripts are better than mercenaries, I kind of need to pointedly remind you that the MC is literally (though inadvertently) using magic to mentally influence his subordinates (Blessing of the King), not to mention his status as "Son of the Griffon, Lord of the Hidden Village". Trying to use blatantly fictional, in-their-own-setting uncommon factors to claim that what we see here is somehow a standard baseline is completely false.
A more realistic portrayal of mercenaries is the recent Issak manga, or Hawkwood. The big bearded fellow in Issak (you'll know him when you see him) is a good example of a Professional mercenary. Hawkwood himself skirts the line but manages to fall on the side of the Professionals, while the black-haired fellow who tries to backstab him is an Opportunist.
@RhoninFire Mostly tagging you cause I want more discussion. And Machiavelli doesn't make the same claims that anyone on this thread (or indeed most people in general) make. Machiavelli's problem with mercenaries was that, if not closely managed, some mercenaries had a tendency to not commit to winning the fight and thus drawing out the conflict for more money. In terms of straight performance or matters of personnel, I'm fairly certain Machiavelli never claimed they were categorically inferior to state troops.
See, the issue here is that you keep making an unspoken decision to use what I call Opportunists as your sole point of comparison. Just like the Total War devs, you're ignoring the notable chunk of Professionals that is always present. Opportunist Mercenaries contributed to the fall of Byzantium because the ruling class at the time was so sunk in backstabbing political nonsense that they were incapable of telling the difference between the two, or dealing with them in good faith. Too many Opportunist mercenaries hired, too many broken deals, too many weaknesses brought out in the open.
Also, if anybody is using this manga as a point to claim that conscripts are better than mercenaries, I kind of need to pointedly remind you that the MC is literally (though inadvertently) using magic to mentally influence his subordinates (Blessing of the King), not to mention his status as "Son of the Griffon, Lord of the Hidden Village". Trying to use blatantly fictional, in-their-own-setting uncommon factors to claim that what we see here is somehow a standard baseline is completely false.
A more realistic portrayal of mercenaries is the recent Issak manga, or Hawkwood. The big bearded fellow in Issak (you'll know him when you see him) is a good example of a Professional mercenary. Hawkwood himself skirts the line but manages to fall on the side of the Professionals, while the black-haired fellow who tries to backstab him is an Opportunist.
@RhoninFire Mostly tagging you cause I want more discussion. And Machiavelli doesn't make the same claims that anyone on this thread (or indeed most people in general) make. Machiavelli's problem with mercenaries was that, if not closely managed, some mercenaries had a tendency to not commit to winning the fight and thus drawing out the conflict for more money. In terms of straight performance or matters of personnel, I'm fairly certain Machiavelli never claimed they were categorically inferior to state troops.
@ninjadork if you keep in line with the series conscript are better than mercenaries due to like you said buff.
Real life is a complicated mess when it depend on country doctrine and if you use mass assault overpower by number and still win the day like soviet as long supply and manpower follow.
Why use mercenaries when you got penal battalions and fanatics they can do the same. Mercenaries are better than pesant levy in medieval - early 17th due to no standing armies (I consider regular as conscript with more training and in service of a landed title when mercenaries are cash-written contract) and obscurantism.
But still regular armies are better else everyone would have switched to PMC only.
To win a war you spend lives and/or cash and as long the goal is attained history won't care as written by winners.
Real life is a complicated mess when it depend on country doctrine and if you use mass assault overpower by number and still win the day like soviet as long supply and manpower follow.
Why use mercenaries when you got penal battalions and fanatics they can do the same. Mercenaries are better than pesant levy in medieval - early 17th due to no standing armies (I consider regular as conscript with more training and in service of a landed title when mercenaries are cash-written contract) and obscurantism.
But still regular armies are better else everyone would have switched to PMC only.
To win a war you spend lives and/or cash and as long the goal is attained history won't care as written by winners.
