Isekai Kenkokuki - Vol. 4 Ch. 25.1

[Kyujyu]

@givemersspls
Yeah why almus side didn't use any fire base weapon is beyond me.
I know people expect guns or cannons but there are easy alternative available. Throwing boiling water/oil from above the gate or better yet throw the freaking bomb that you created instead of rocks to the infantry with shields would be hundreds time more effective.
He already finish the bomb 2 years ago so he should stockpile lots of them by now.

 

[Revrak]

i hope we get to see some boiling water or oil falling on the troops

 

[Serkket]

Anyone who has read the webnovel, what chapter does this cover?

 

[kypmbangi]

with all the available forest and wood resources nearby he could easily made some crude ballista or catapult
but nope, its always the "big thing" for these mc.. dunno it's the author's fault or what..

Spoiler

he made some "boom" for a huge trap later in the raw.. but how is making explosives is easier than making some war machines?

 

[yohane]

@captain_crunch any decent army will always bring 1 or 2 siege weapons, just in case
and the fact that the enemy can kill their mages means they will be more prepared this time

 

[bursky]

Ah classic writing foibles, artificially creating drama by making one side incompetent regardless if it makes sense or not.

 

[theShear]

@bursky So far no side seems to be incompetent here.
The Enemy stepped into one pitfall trap, closed it and avoided all others, then used Archers to force them into cover so that the Siege engine can approach which it successfully did. The reason they lose later is because of something they never could possible expect as they didn't know about stuff like that.

@kypmbangi A crude Ballista or Catapult is useless if nobody knows how to use it, blackpowder is actually rather easy to make if you know how and best of all the enemy doesn't know what that is so they never can expect it.

 

[Askorti]

@TUSF
But the situation doesn't require an advanced cannon. A primitive bombard, the kind that was already in production in the 14th century would be perfectly sufficient for the task at hand. And one of those was developed in Europe in a span of around 50 years or less. He does not need to produce the pinnacle of gunsmithing immediately, he can go through the same process of refinement and improvement as we did historically. Also, cannons replaced trebuchets and catapults pretty much as soon as people were capable of producing them in appreciable numbers. Handheld guns were more tricky than that, that much I agree on.

 

[TomTangent]

@bursky Wait which side is incompetent? Both sides seems to be taking the most appropriate action. If anything it seems like Almus is getting overwhelmed, although we know he has other things in his sleeves.

 

[TomTangent]

@kypmbangi
ballistas and catapults both require a large amount manpower to operate which Almus currently lack

@captain_crunch
They brought it to attack the kingdom which was their main goal

 

[Jpwong]

@Serkket I went back and took a look, this should cover the first half of chapter 29.

 

[jonsmth]

> hot oil
oil is expensive
even then, you'd only really use it against those scaling the walls (with ladders) or are already at the bottom of the walls
the enemy has a battering ram and is raining arrows on the ramparts; unless they made murder holes, there's no way to pour boiling water over the approaching enemy

> why not use fire
afaik, aside from throwing torches, the only way you could actually "throw flames" is with Greek fire through a pump
torches would just be kicked aside

> flame arrows
those don't actually work well enough irl; the arrows have to fly very slowly otherwise its flames would go out
even then, they only really have like one archer iirc

> bombard cannons
I think the issue with having them at all is that they neither have the metal nor the smithing talent/technology available to them

@captain_crunch
> how did the 200 know to bring a battering ram?
yeah i wondered that too for a moment, but then i remembered that they sent a soldier to do reconnaissance last chapter. the village already knows about the spies, so they don't care about doing it stealthily anymore.

> how did they bring it through a forest, disassemble and assemble?
they mentioned in the previous chapter that there's already a road through the forest thanks to the refugees.

 

[twinklecake]

gg faget

 

[RhoninFire]

@givemersspls - I don't want to get fullly involved in your arguments. But I'm annoyed enough of your comments on fire to make me chime this. Setting things on fire just isn't that easy. If it was, there would many more examples of people using it in sieges involving palisade walls. In reality, palisade walls was pretty effective and it takes more than just a few flaming arrows (and same goes for Almus to use fire in return against their wooden shields - you're technically right that flaming arrows were used in history, but that commentator is still right in spirit - it's rarely used and rarely effective). Far more siege assaults relied more on storming with ladders and battering rams than trying to light the wall on fire. Even against wood and earth based defenses.

 

[RhoninFire]

@givemersspls I'm pretty that's moving the goalpost, but I'll bite. For an "in-context" reason... well let me ask you this: Have you ever tried to start a fire?

Even if you say yes and still disagree, then I ask you think back - because I'm pretty sure you didn't just toss a whole log against a flame and then it just lights up. A solid wooden block doesn't just light up against any flame - it has to be big enough and/or exposed to it long enough. You don't even need any fire-resistant coating on shields and especially palisades. Even a bunch of arrows on fire wouldn't just light it up. In the context of this manga, I'm pretty sure most characters are familiar with starting fires and thus familiar with how much heat versus material it takes for something to catch on fire. So within the context of the manga, the best argument is pointing out most should be to infer from past experience of starting fires and know shooting fire arrows on either side would just be a waste of resources and effort to make them.

Honestly, a much better approach in questioning their tactics is not the lack of use of fire, but for Almus side, better to question the lack of use in arrows, javelins, and spears. You know a more effective way to counter shields than flaming arrows? Regular arrows. A sharp pointy thing is far more effective against armor than an on-fire not-so-pointy thing. So a much better criticism is not why is Almus is not using fire, but why is he not throwing javelins (I'm saying javelins rather than arrows on purpose, it seems reasonably inferable that the lack of arrows is probably because they lack trained archers - reinforced that by one guy did have a bow and tried to fire back unsuccessfully).

Now for one thing outside of the context of this manga. I want to note the closest analogy between this particular chapter and IRL history - Caesar's campaign against the Gauls (actually it might borrowing from it on some level - those soldiers are assaulting the gate in testudo formation - which is an actual IRL tactic by Roman soldiers against projectiles). And this chapter's depiction doesn't look that off to me to how Gauls and Romans fought. The Gauls are fortified with largely wood-based defenses like palisade walls - they would be defending themselves with javelins, arrows, and even rocks. Romans would assault fortified palisade towns with ramps, rams, and ladders. I do have to note that there are instances where use of fire was attempted - but not in the way you argued for this chapter. A particularly notable one is the Siege of Avaricum - with the Gauls set fire to the Roman siege equipment with tar and touches. I should note that this use of fire was attempted with surprise, at night, and with reinforcements to tried to hold off fire extinguishing by alerted Roman - and despite going back and forth all night - the Gauls failed, the Roman was able to put out the fire enough to survive to morning - this one instance of use of fire is impossible to do in this past chapter given the context is being daytime and direct assault, so Almus can't use that unless the author is planning to somehow survive to the night in the next chapter.

If you want to read the real tactics and strategies for settings similar to this chapter. I would recommend reading a translation of Commentarii de Bello Gallico (Comments of The Gallic War) which is Julius Caesar's firsthand account of him fighting the Gauls in France.

 

[jackty89]

@jonsmth
They cant even fire down as they forgot MACHICOLATIONS!!!! as Shadiversity would say. He should have made a drawbridge that would have helped a shitton

 

[RhoninFire]

@givemersspls - Coating arrows with resin, oil, or tar just allows the arrow to go on fire. Again, wood just doesn't light up on fire that easily. The resin doesn't spread, at best, you're trying to cover something with enough arrows that it would go on fire. If you want something like the battering ram to go on fire, you'll need to directly apply it with the resin. You can't just shoot flaming arrows at it until it goes on fire. At least not without absurd amount of arrows.

Again, flaming arrows the exception, not the norm. Just because you can link instances on Wikipedia doesn't mean it a viable tactic - much less viable in within the context of this chapter. Even in your own link, the articles itself admits "most will have extinguished themselves before reaching the target." If this chapter followed by what you said Almus should do and then depicts how such tactics actually plays out IRL, you would be chastising Almus for being an idiot for wasting so much material, time, and effort making such ineffective weapons. It would be as effective at the rocks. But at least the rocks only cost the time and effort of gathering them.

Fire needs time and scale. For either side, you need to light it up and need to hold it long enough to make it meaningful. IRL, when it is used, people not just use the weapon, they needed to support it by denying the area long enough for it take effect. For Almus, they would mean sallying out and capture the ram long enough to actually light it. Which is not realistic though I guess we could have bought in given the timeskip and premise of being OP. For Ferme, it would be occupying the wall long enough to burn it. But then you might as well knock with down with a ram or climb over it.

As the trebuchets, you already pointed out the flaws by yourself. Plus it is a weapon not typically used in the initial opening of sieges. It's not easy to make one. Most are saved for bigger sieges.

 

[jonsmth]

@jackty89
> MACHICOLATIONS
only over the gate, as the moat already provides enough of a deterrent

a drawbridge probably would have been complicated to build and while it would stop a battering ram from getting close to it, it would mean that an enemy might try to attack a different section of the wall instead, which would complicate defense. if they're already going to build something so complex as a draw bridge, a better defensive strategy would be to employ chamber gates so as to trap attackers and pour boiling water on them through murder holes.

@givemersspls
> You even say fire needs time and scale
he meant the amount of time for the fire to burn and/or the scale of the fire
even if a siege can last for weeks, anyone would notice their shield or their wall burning and would promptly put it out
fire in sieges would have been used to burn enemy food supplies and possibly siege engines if they can find them

 

[jonsmth]

@givemersspls
> shields
there's no way to do that unless you splash them with sticky flammable liquid

> fire arrows
the fire arrows won't stick because they have to fly at a low velocity, so you'd basically have to lob them over the walls, and onto the defenders behind them for them to put it out. even if you could get them to stick, you still need a lot of them because it's more likely that the arrow would burn itself up before the wall would. by the time a section of the wall catches fire, the battering ram would have already breached the gates.
you're better off throwing torches at the base of the wall but to get into throwing range means you'd also be in range of the defender's stones...

also, remember that they don't actually have time for a siege against a village. they only found out about its fortification recently, and they don't have time to prepare since they are acting on the opportunity that the enemy king is ill. they are relying on passing by the village to loot and then serve as a forward base, but they didn't expect it to be fortified.

 

[jonsmth]

@givemersspls
Low speed as in it probably won't dig into any wooden shield or the paliside wall. It has to be shot at low speed to keep the fire from going out. What bow it is shot from doesn't matter.

also, FIRE-ARROWS!
https://youtu.be/zTd_0FRAwOQ

> And really? You're going to tell me they rushed their preparations?
They rushed their preparations meaning that they don't have food. The reason why they're even attacking the village is that they're hoping to loot for food from there.
They can build a battering ram in a week or two (and they had to, because they're besieging a city), but stockpiling enough food for a long siege would take months. The news of the king falling ill was unexpected, so they never could prepare for that opportunity.