Isekai Kenkokuki - Vol. 4 Ch. 25.1

[RhoninFire]

@givemersspls -

The same link cites to sources saying that flaming arrows were effective in seige situations against wooden, which is what this is.

Except the examples used are "Royalists shot flaming arrows into the thatched homes" (emphasis added) for the British Civil Wars. Or in another area of that section are "firing bolts and quarrells dipped in tar into the town". Yeah, your link says flaming arrows were effective, for burning towns.

There isn't a distinguishing factor between the historical accounts and this one; they match up fairly closely. There are other resources saying the same point as well.

Yeah, this chapter and historical accounts largely don't use fire... The attackers uses things like battering arms with supporting troops like just like this chapter. The defenders uses walls with non-flaming projectiles. The historical accounts that flaming arrows were used were the special instances, not the "staple of basic warfare".

For Almus' side, the whole goal is to get Fermi's soldiers to drop their shields

It could slather a shield with oil that is on fire

Except it won't. I can make so many different arguments. Some @jonsmth already pointed out. But I'll go with this: Did you know the Roman Legion's shields are wooden? It made of 3 layers of wood bounded by glue and some leather. The little round thing at the center of the shield at the center of the shield is made of metal to deflect center blows but the rest is made of flammable wood and leather. From the art of this chapter, it seems at least artist is also basing the design of the soldiers on the Roman Legion too. But that's not necessarily canon vs the artist was merely told to just draw soldiers. But I digressed, the Roman Legion's shields were wooden, yet can you tell me any instances fire were uses to disarm their shields? I'm confident you cannot, but that's not how fire works. That's not how combat works.

Caesar did not uses fire to burn down palisades walls in his campaigns against the Gauls, Germanic, or Britons. Neither did they any of them uses fire to burn the wooden shields of the Romans (nor other enemies like the Carthaginians, Greeks, or even the arrow-heavy Parthians. If the Parthians didn't bother to shoot fire arrows in the Battle of Carrhae in one of the arrow heavy battle in Roman history, flaming arrows is just not a common staple in warfare.

If you want to hear other civilizations and palisades that similar to this chapter's context - look at the French and English colonization efforts. Native American besieged the hell of places like Jamestown. Yet, the tactics did not include "let's set the shoot flaming arrows at the Palisade walls". Earlier I suggested you read Caesar's Commentaries on the Gallic War. Let me add another one called The Buccaneers of America by Alexandre Exquemelin which is another primary account but in the Americas.

Flaming arrows are not a "staple of any basic warfare of the period" as you claimed on the first page. That's not how fire works. That's not how siege warfare works. That's not how any of this works.

 

[RhoninFire]

They were followed by incendiary arrows, which were used throughout the ancient and medieval periods. The simplest flaming arrows had oil- or resin-soaked tows tied just below the arrowhead and were effective against wooden structures.[13] Both the Assyrians and the Judeans used fire arrows at the siege of Lachish in 701 BC

.[54]


In another section of the same page, it says

Again, the circumstances were different. Look at the examples it used. How many fit in the circumstances of this chapter? Meanwhile the one conflict you kept in your quotation, I'm pretty sure it was in the same ways the other examples were uses. Like to burn towns offensively or defensively in city sieges where they have enough archers to launch enough fire arrows that it can actually ignite something.

It was frequently used against siege engines and wooden structures.[13] Incendiary weapons could be used to set fire to towns and fortifications

Emphasis added.

Historical accounts show that fire was "frequently" used against siege engines and wooden structures. That is what the sources actually have said.

That said, yes, fire was commonly used. The area you quoted is talking about fire. However, the discussion have been largely about fire arrows (I did said "fire" and not "fire arrows" a few times in my last comments, but I'm talking about fire arrows). The context of what you quoted is using mentioning fire for any phase of the battle and within all context. But the phase here is during a direct frontal assault. The context here is at a small palisade village and not some castle or city.

Meanwhile you have argued flaming arrows should be uses against the palisade walls. That flaming arrows should be used against shields. You even double down saying it would "... get Fermi's soldiers to drop their shields..." One of your responses to jonsmth even said "...use fire arrows to light the palisades on fire..." Though I'm glad to see you have acquiesced on the shields.

Were they used in every single battle? Of course not! And I shouldn't have to defend that. I'm saying they should've at least considered it given these circumstances where it honestly could make sense.

You and never were not argument if it was used in every single battle and you know that. But I have been saying this chapter has not been the circumstances to use fire - particularly fire arrows. When professional soldiers outnumber the villages and you want to waste no time in getting food, it's an entirely reasonable move to just choose to storm the town. If there's anything missing, it's probably they should bring some ladders too. Meanwhile for Almus's side, what he's lacking is that he should be throwing javelins and other projectiles (though he does seem to have a "plan" - since it's not guns or cannons, it better be something like a bomb as anything else would make no sense to not use it already).

There are appropriate ways for fire to be used. And I guess you would have wanted more exposition and lampshading. But in the context and circumstances presented in this chapter; It has been adequate and appropriate. You have been using fire arrows at the primary example of they are not been acting appropriate to the circumstances. But reality is that fire arrows are just not that common, mostly because it's has not been very effective.

 

[jonsmth]

@givemersspls
You're suggesting that they should shoot at walls and shields. If the arrow doesn't have enough inertia, it would just bounce off of the shield or off the wall and into the moat. That's why they have to be shot upwards over the wall and onto the ramparts.

I mentioned that the type of bow doesn't matter in this because I thought you misunderstood why the arrows have to be shot at low velocities. If you watched that Lindybiege video, you would see explanations on why flaming arrows wouldn't have been too effective - that the flames on an regular arrow usually would go out. Increase the amount of flammable material, and you'd need a heavier, tougher arrow to compensate for the extra weight, which would then not fly just as fast. And even if you do have some magic flammable material to keep the flames from going out, you still can't get solid logs and planks to catch fire easily. He mentioned that there was a 2% chance to catch fire, now add onto that the low chance of hitting with indirect firing, and the chances are much lower. There's also the issue with rate of fire (how fast and how dense arrows would come raining down).

> And it shows that they still literally had time to prepare. Yeah, they didn't have enough food for a while, but that shows they should be focused on using effective tactics. Fire is a historically proven effective tactic.
You're missing the point. Fire can be effective if they were given enough time. They don't have time.
"Preparation" here pertains to food, which is essential to keep 3000 mouths fed, prevent mutinies, and to keep them from deserting.

Fire in sieges aren't exactly used to break palisade walls, but, as the Lindybiege video mentioned, to start fires behind the walls and keep the defenders busy. At any other times, they can be used against siege engines and food supplies, but only in a sneak attack when everyone is asleep. It takes time for large pieces of wood to catch fire.

They don't have time to employ tactics involving fire. The battering ram was the fastest thing they have.

@RhoninFire
> javelins
I don't know but maybe a village simply can't equip themselves with javelins? They might not have enough metal for the spearheads. Not that I know if there are alternatives (maybe flint?)
Almus might have put his hopes on the stones working too since him and his villagers have superhuman strength. The former refugees were still mostly normal people though.

 

[jonsmth]

@givemersspls
> When the heck did it say 3000 mouths to feed?
They were getting food for the siege at the city. The 200 men are a detachment. It's mentioned in the previous "chapter". Did you forget that they are trying to take over a kingdom and not just some village in the forest? I'll reiterate it for you: they normally can't attack the kingdom because they can only muster 3000 men against the kingdom's 10000. The king falling ill is a chance because most of the manpower will be busy at the borders and in other countries, leaving only the garrison in the city (i forgot how many). This means that it was an opportunity that they couldn't have prepared for. Why not stockpile for a siege? Because they have a country to feed. It would have taken months (harvest seasons) before they can stockpile enough food for a long siege. Heck, if they had enough food, they didn't need to attack Almus' village - time is of the essence.

> We see them with a load of regular arrows
Hitting anything as in hitting a thatch house, a haystack, or a barrel of tar. Again, large pieces of wood don't catch fire very easily. There's nothing on the palisade wall that can easily catch fire other than the villagers' hair and clothes. This all even if they are firing a volley of arrows.

The arrows are better used to fire at the defenders to let the battering ram and the other men get close to the gate (suppressive fire). It's a fast tactic.

 

[jonsmth]

@givemersspls
> But nowhere does it say that they, this 200 soldier detachment, has to get food for ALL of the soldiers in the invasion. That's NOWHERE said. They said that the 200 soldiers are taking only enough provisions for three days and that THEY, the 200 soldiers, will just get supplies from the villages they raid, but NOWHERE does it say that they have to get food for the whole army.

Ch24.2, page 3:
Ferme: "That being said, he won't be able to take command of his army. We'll be going to invade them!"
The Aide (I don't know his name): "Excuse me, but we don't have enough provisions."
Ferme: "What are you talking about? We're going to war to secure provisions, aren't we? As long as we have 3 days worth of provisions, we just need to plunder to get the rest."

They are going to war, and if I understand that right, it would mean attacking with most of their men. The aide says that they don't have enough provisions for a war, which means they don't have enough for the entire army.

The illustration in Ch25.1, page 2 shows that Ferme will move out while the detachment is going through the village, without any implication that they are going into any other villages on the way.

This means Ferme is going to try to finish this campaign as quickly as possible, because his men don't have enough food for a long campaign. The 3000 men will only have 3 days worth of provisions if they don't plunder any villages on the way, so that means that they have to rely on the loot from Almus' village if they have to last longer than 3 days. This means that 200-men detachment can't afford to waste time, because they have to support the main attacking force by securing a forward base, provisions, and then serve as the rearguard (not the vanguard, because they're tasked with attacking as a smaller force at the flank in hopes of luring the garrison out of the walls).

> The hope is that that would stay lit long enough for structures such as the palisades to catch fire themselves.
And it won't. You need to bunch up all the flaming arrows at one spot to make a sizeable enough fire, and maybe it would be enough to get the palisade warm... until a defender notices it and pours water over it.

 

[jonsmth]

@givemersspls
> Was Ferme's plan, then, to have his entire army of 3200 move out with three days worth of supplies, have a group of 200 dispatched roughly one day's worth of travel out (so two days left) and then he and the remaining 3000 continue on to the capital for another day with, at most, one day's worth of food remaining, in the hopes that the 200 soldier group would not only defeat Almus' village swiftly but also meet back up with Ferme's army WITH enough provisions to feed all 3200 (minus casualties) soldiers there? That's cutting it EXTREMELY close.

Seems like it. If they didn't simultaneously moved out, news of Almus' village getting attacked would reach the Rosice capital earlier, and a little more of those 10,000 men would move towards the capital earlier to defend, making it impossible for the campaign to continue.

Also, Ferme is losing supporters/vassals to the news of a surviving member of the Ashe family. This means Ferme's also losing military and economic power as the vassals defect and take their fiefs and soldiers with them. It's really now or never.

> You use fire as both a distraction as well as an actual means of causing damage.
You seemed to be insisting on the palisade walls, so I thought that you wanted to destroy them with fire. Fire as a distraction may work as I have mentioned, but you can't destroy the wall with fire as long as nobody is asleep. The artist depicted the palisade walls as planks and that could probably make them look like flimsy, but we could assume that this was a mistake on the artist's part until we read the novel on the description of the walls (palisade wall fortifications are usually made of logs).

An earlier comment mentioned that Ferme's army might not like to burn the village before they take it because of the risk of burning the food too. Ferme's army shouldn't use fire even if fire-arrows are somehow effective.

 

[jonsmth]

@givemersspls
> I would also expect storehouses to be more centrally located instead of on the outskirts, near the defenses, so I would expect that Ferme's soldiers would be able to avoid targeting that.

They might not know that unless there was high enough elevation to peek over the walls. Their eyes in the sky were shot down after all.

Either way, if a fire inside a village does start, it would be difficult to stop. There's no telling if the fire would spread to the granaries or not.

 

[Kwijo]

Ferme needs to brush up on military science. Since ancient times, the rule of thumb is that an invading force should outnumber the defenders 3:1 to ensure a reasonable chance of success.

 

[Huapollon]

@jonsmth

Do remember that Ferme is working on the assumption that the village is unfortified, or at least crudely fortified with a makeshift palisade, since his scouts all got nailed.
I am curious why Ferme's commander of the detachment didn't immediately send out a messenger when he noticed he was up against a heavily fortified settlement rather than an undefended village.

 

[jonsmth]

@Kwijo
Ferme can't wait because he's also losing vassals to the Ashe family. If he loses any more power, neighboring countries would find his kingdom ripe for the picking. It was also the best time to attack because all vassals of the Rosice kingdom would be preoccupied, leaving only the garrison in the city to defend.
His plan of using a detachment to lure the garrison out of the city is what would give him a chance to win. Typically, besieging a city would force the city to close its gates, essentially isolating it from the rest of the world. This means the city's economy grinds to a halt, and it can't get any provisions in too. The defenders would as much as possible want to break the siege, so the garrison, vastly outnumbering the detachment force, would march out of the city walls. This may even the numbers out when Ferme's main force would attack from the front.

@Huapollon
Ferme knew of the village fortifications since he did send "a scout" (exact wording of the English translation). We can assume that this scout is a footman or a mounted soldier rather than another voodoo user. What he wasn't able to know about is what is beyond the palisade walls, since his eyes in the sky were taken out.

You'd know that Ferme knows of the fortification since the detachment had to bring a battering ram to raid a village. If the depiction of the battering ram is correct, I'd say that wouldn't be something that could be made in a few hours considering that it had nice wheels.

 

[CyanHide]

Yay, people smarter than me are discussing the ways of the old world. I can now leech off of their wisdom!

 

[Huapollon]

@jonsmth

Historically and realistically, battering rams (Or all siege equipment for that matter) are ALWAYS constructed on site using local lumber... So it has to have been made after the invasion forces made their siege camp. Good wheels or not, it does not go through densely wooded forests.

Also, you can't assume the scout is not the voodoo user, since eye-in-the-sky qualifies as scouting. (BTW, the singular in 'a scout' is an artifact of translation, japanese do not have designated singular or plurals attached to nouns. Unless otherwise specified, it could be either plural or singular.)

 

[jonsmth]

@Huapollon
> Good wheels or not, it does not go through densely wooded forests.
They mentioned that there was a road that was made from the refugees fleeing to the village, so the detachment didn't go through the densely wooded forest. The well-built battering ram deployed in under 2 days held suspension of disbelief considering that the detachment had to travel that road.

Then again, maybe Ferme's men just has some really good builders among them.

> Also, you can't assume the scout is not the voodoo user
Ferme asked to send "a scout" after their voodoo users were killed, thinking that there must be something interesting in the village. The only known counter to voodoo to them is another voodoo user, and they assumed that Rosice has a high-leveled voodoo user stationed at the village. For someone like that to be stationed there, it follows that the village probably holds some high value - all the more reason to prepare a proper siege even if it was a quick one. Since they know that voodoo users would just get countered, they have to send a scout who is not a voodoo user.

> BTW, the singular in 'a scout' is an artifact of translation, japanese do not have designated singular or plurals attached to nouns
"A scout" may also imply a small group of men or a unit, since this may be a task assigned to someone who has his own men. But it may as well also be just one person who has good eyes and is really fast on his feet.

 

[lifeinvader]

Bruh those defenses are crap. Where are the machicolations and no gate house? What about arrow slits? Bruh why not build another round of defenses and why no hot oil ?

 

[Kaarme]

@lifeinvader By the looks of it the village only has a single bow. As long as the attackers keep that single archer hiding, they have nothing to worry about.

 

[aosuki]

so... still remember the stone slings they had in the first chapters? no? neither do i

 

[ShionSinX]

This is getting interesting!

 

[SotiCoto]

The translator really needs to stop using dots instead of commas in numbers.
10.000 = 10 ... not 10000.


Also there will be at least one fewer adventurer and one more town guard when this is over...

 

[DonGiovanni]

@SotiCoto number formatting is different everywhere in the world. Maybe it's the correct formatting where they're from.