Isekai Nonbiri Nouka - Ch. 244 - Spears for the Angels (1)

[MangaDex]

 

[AnotherDuck]

How crafty. He turned a ball into a ball. Must've taken some lessons from MacGyver himself.

Of course it tastes like chicken. Everything does. Well, if it's white meat.

I like how she responds to his narration.

A spear is longer than a sword, but I'd still call it close quarters.

That was quick. Could at least try it, though.

 

[PLaci1982]

Probably national treasure scale [Dragon scale spearhead]:

It's just ordinary...

 

[Gabriix]

It's ordinary

It seem they don't know the proverb "Don't trust appearances"

 

[Flame-2-Haze]

Wouldn't a scythe be better weapon to use if you're flying? A lance when charging means you must not miss the target. It's very much like a boar if you think of it that way.

 

[Vincentius]

Wouldn't a scythe be better weapon to use if you're flying? A lance when charging means you must not miss the target. It's very much like a boar if you think of it that way.

Not really. Scythes make incredibly poor weapons, even when purpose built as one; your reach is about 1.5 times shorter than a polearm with a similarly sized blade (because the blade is perpendicular and the edge is on the inner curve), so it requires significantly more motion and exaggerated swings to use.

There'ss actually a fencing manual from the 16th century on how to wield a scythe, but it's specifically the farming variant and makes use of the perpendicular handles. It's also not very long and it seems the author, Paulus Hector Mair, may have written it as a novelty, rather than something serious.

A lance is better because it doesn't require any motion from the wielder in order to generate power; therefore, it won't get in the way of their wings during flight. If they miss, they can easily whip around for a second attack, as they're far more maneuverable than a horse, so accuracy isn't really an issue.

Plus, with the conical design of their lances (which I 100% guarantee the author/artist did solely because they thought it looked cool), they don't have to worry about their weapons being stuck instead a target's body like with a more realistic weapon, whereas a blade could still very much get stuck.

 

[BanditHadron]

Not really. Scythes make incredibly poor weapons, even when purpose built as one; your reach is about 1.5 times shorter than a polearm with a similarly sized blade (because the blade is perpendicular and the edge is on the inner curve), so it requires significantly more motion and exaggerated swings to use.

There'ss actually a fencing manual from the 16th century on how to wield a scythe, but it's specifically the farming variant and makes use of the perpendicular handles. It's also not very long and it seems the author, Paulus Hector Mair, may have written it as a novelty, rather than something serious.

A lance is better because it doesn't require any motion from the wielder in order to generate power; therefore, it won't get in the way of their wings during flight. If they miss, they can easily whip around for a second attack, as they're far more maneuverable than a horse, so accuracy isn't really an issue.

Plus, with the conical design of their lances (which I 100% guarantee the author/artist did solely because they thought it looked cool), they don't have to worry about their weapons being stuck instead a target's body like with a more realistic weapon, whereas a blade could still very much get stuck.

Very accurate! And one other fact is that with the lance being held the way it is, they would need to make less adjustments with the tip while flying than with basically anything else.

 

[oceanking]

Wouldn't a scythe be better weapon to use if you're flying? A lance when charging means you must not miss the target. It's very much like a boar if you think of it that way.

IMO a partizan or sword staff would be better for them than a lance since both have decent thrust ability (not as good as a lance though) but make very good slashing polearms so that they have more variety of attacks when dealing with intelligent opponents.

 

[oceanking]

Not really. Scythes make incredibly poor weapons, even when purpose built as one; your reach is about 1.5 times shorter than a polearm with a similarly sized blade (because the blade is perpendicular and the edge is on the inner curve), so it requires significantly more motion and exaggerated swings to use.

There'ss actually a fencing manual from the 16th century on how to wield a scythe, but it's specifically the farming variant and makes use of the perpendicular handles. It's also not very long and it seems the author, Paulus Hector Mair, may have written it as a novelty, rather than something serious.

A lance is better because it doesn't require any motion from the wielder in order to generate power; therefore, it won't get in the way of their wings during flight. If they miss, they can easily whip around for a second attack, as they're far more maneuverable than a horse, so accuracy isn't really an issue.

Plus, with the conical design of their lances (which I 100% guarantee the author/artist did solely because they thought it looked cool), they don't have to worry about their weapons being stuck instead a target's body like with a more realistic weapon, whereas a blade could still very much get stuck.

yes the classic farming scythe/grim reaper's scythe pretty bad weapons. However there is a version of the scythe that was adapted for war called a war-scythe which basically turned the blade 90° so that the tip is facing up. It's purpose was to be used by conscripts since they were cheap to make.

 

[BusWindow]

Probably something like a halberd or glaive would be more fitting. Something with an edge rather than just a point.

 

[vergotear]

Obviously the bestest weapon they would wield are the Nunchuks, nothing beats nunchuks, they don't have any drawbacks!!!

 

[AnotherDuck]

Not really. Scythes make incredibly poor weapons, even when purpose built as one; your reach is about 1.5 times shorter than a polearm with a similarly sized blade (because the blade is perpendicular and the edge is on the inner curve), so it requires significantly more motion and exaggerated swings to use.

You know, for all the impracticalities a scythe has in normal combat, a flying warrior they might actually be able to use them. A scythe is designed to "attack" along the ground, which is below where you're holding it. If you come flying, it means you can fly a little bit above your target, as opposed to if you have a lance, in which case you need to charge almost head on.

Since you're flying at speed, you don't need to move the scythe yourself either, kind of like how attacking with a sword from horseback is just a matter of holding it out if you're riding at a decent speed.

So I don't think using a scythe would be as bad as it might seem.

1.5 times shorter

How does that even add up? A negative 50% reach?

 

[Ohilevoe]

Polearm! Polearm! Polearm! Polearm!

If they make a glaive, halberd, bardiche, or the like, they can still stab while expanding their ability to engage in combat.

 

[vergotear]

You know, for all the impracticalities a scythe has in normal combat, a flying warrior they might actually be able to use them. A scythe is designed to "attack" along the ground, which is below where you're holding it. If you come flying, it means you can fly a little bit above your target, as opposed to if you have a lance, in which case you need to charge almost head on.

Since you're flying at speed, you don't need to move the scythe yourself either, kind of like how attacking with a sword from horseback is just a matter of holding it out if you're riding at a decent speed.

So I don't think using a scythe would be as bad as it might seem.


How does that even add up? A negative 50% reach?

The advantage of a lance or spear is the distance you put in front of you between you and the target, plus they can be thrown. With a sword at your side while mounted or dragging a scythe as you describe, means your enemy would already be beside you when you strike. Add the all kinds of powerful creatures living in the forest of death and unexpected circumstances and that's not a risk you'd take. What if you scythe doesn't cut your enemy and instead get caught?

 

[Vincentius]

How does that even add up? A negative 50% reach?

The TL;DR is you have to reach past your opponent to actually strike them with a scythe compared to a regular polearm.

As to the full explanation, this will be a bit long, so sorry in advance (and I deeply apologize if any of it comes off as condescending, that's not my intent). I don't know how much you know about martial arts or historical fencing, but there's a concept called measure (maai in Japanese).

Essentially, it's the distance between two fighters in which one can reach the other with a single step/lunge in order to attack; but there are also different kinds depending on how close you are to the opponent.

They boil down to short, medium, and long ranges; short range is typically grappling range, while long range means you have to take a few steps to engage the opponent. Medium is the measure I described above and is wildly different depending on weapon type.

For instance, say you have a 6ft tall person wielding a rapier with a 3ft long blade whose arms are 2.5 feet long. Standing in a neutral stance with the sword extended, their reach is 5.5ft. With a single lunge, they would be able to strike someone from roughly 12 feet away, meaning their Medium Measure is about 12 feet.

On the other end of the spectrum, say you have a 5.5ft tall person wielding a katana with a 2.5ft blade whose arms are 2ft long. Because the katana is two-handed, the body is (nearly) squared to the opponent and the weapon held in front, drastically shortening their reach. Their maximum reach is 4.5ft, but in a neutral stance (Chudan no Kamae), their actual reach is about 3.5ft. With a single lunge and a thrust, they would be able to strike someone about 8 feet away, give or take; with a slash, that range is shortened by about a foot.

See the difference?

Now let's take it a step further and give the second person a battleaxe. Real battleaxes are roughly 2ft in overall length with a 4 inch cutting surface, not monstrosities like Kratos' Leviathan. Anyway, this would actually increase this person's reach by about 6 inches, as the axe is a one-handed weapon.

However, his actual range would decrease because many axes aren't designed with thrusting in mind, so you would have to strike with the edge, meaning you'd have to get closer. This would make the now axe wielder's Medium Measure about 7 feet.

With all that explained, let's look at polearms, which can be divided, largely, into two categories: thrusting and slashing.

Thrusting polearms, i.e., spears and lances, are typically held with the dominant hand at the base of the haft and the off hand held about 2 to 3 feet further up; this isn't universal in all situations, but it's most common. Everything of the spear above the off hand is your weapon's reach.

Slashing polearms, i.e., glaives, halberds, and, yes, even scythes, are typically held in thirds; that is, the dominant hand is held about 1/3 of the way down the haft from the blade while the off hand is held about 1/3 of the way up from the base, though the two hands can change places during attacks.

Now, let's say we have a 5.5ft person with 2ft arms wielding a 10ft long polearm; it has a 2ft blade and 8ft haft.

The first polearm is a spear. With the aforementioned hand placement, this makes the spearman's reach roughly between 7 and 8 feet. Using what we know from earlier, this should make his Medium Measure 12 to 13 feet, right? Well, yes, but also no at the same time.

See, a spear can use what's called a slip thrust, where the dominant hand slips the haft through the off hand, much like a pool cue. This is quite powerful and doesn't require any movement from the feet, yet affords you an additional 2 to 3 feet of range; if you add that to a lunge, the spearman's Medium Measure can be 14 to 15 feet.

The second polearm is a glaive. With the aforementioned hand placement, this makes the glaive wielder's reach roughly between 4.5 and 5 feet. Already a significant drop from the spear. With a lunge and a thrust, this would make their Medium Measure about 10 feet. With a slash, it becomes about 9 feet.

Finally, the third polearm is a scythe. With the aforementioned hand placement, and taking into account the blade being perpendicular to the haft, this puts the scythe wielder a reach roughly between 2.5 and 3 feet. Because the blade is perpendicular, it cannot thrust in line (by which I mean, thrusting forward won't result in piercing an enemy), so you are limited to slashing (or piercing with the point in a slashing motion), which means with a lunge, your Medium Measure would be about 5 to 6 feet.

If the blade were like an axe, with the edge still parallel to the haft. Because the edge is on the inside curve of the blade, you must swing past the opponent and catch them with it as you slice back towards yourself. This shortens your Medium Measure to only about 4 to 5 feet, maybe 5.5ft at the outside.

Your only option then would be to choke down on the haft (and I really hate saying it that way, because of how sexual it sounds; which is why I insist on using "haft" instead of "shaft") like you would a spear. This would significantly extend your reach, by about 4 feet, give or take, but it also limits the mobility of your weapon.

Now, as you can see from all of this theoretical stuff, the design of the scythe makes it a terrible weapon to fight with compared to any other conventional polearm.

It does offer some unique techniques in the form of hooking and sweeping or being able to attack from behind the opponent, but those aren't really enough to outweigh its negative aspects, especially when you have to be within 5 feet of your opponent to do any of those things while a spearman can punch a hole through your eye socket from almost 20 feet away.

Anyway, with flight, you would think the mobility would outstrip those things, allowing it to be more effective and you'd be right, to a degree; the problem then becomes one of aerodynamics and positioning.

Say you want to use a big slash to cut through someone with a scythe. Not only are you making yourself wider, and thus less aerodnymaic, you also have to keep in mind the positioning of your wings and weapon. With a lance like the angels have, though, they can basically just hold it in front of them and more or less become a guided missile.

Plus, you can block a slash from a scythe, arresting the momentum of the wielder, which is exactly why the angels said they didn't use swords; you can't typicaly do the same with a thrust. You can, with a shield, but then all of that momentum is transfered directly into you (it's the same reason why bulletproof vests may stop the bullet from penetrating, but you still crack ribs and such).

 

[branx9]

That was quick. Could at least try it, though.

Yeah what the fuck did I just read? Nonono, give back the spear crafted from legendary drops by god-mode craftsmen, it's too plain to even try.

 

[fight2live]

lance or spear doesn't matter. in Fate universes they'd be put in the same Lancer-class anyway

 

[xanketsu]

The armadillo is rotating, so the lance should be rotating to counter that.

Hence, The Drill! Is the answer.

 

[PrivatePublic]

Could offer the traditional angel weapon of spiked metal bat.

 

[AnotherDuck]

The TL;DR is you have to reach past your opponent to actually strike them with a scythe compared to a regular polearm.

I still can't see a way for your calculations to end up with a negative number. Aside from how you stopped talking about reach and started talking about measure. Add to that, you still didn't address attacking from above, so at the end of it, while interesting, your long explanation didn't hit the target.

I wasn't saying a scythe would necessarily be better than a spear, just a weapon that actually works. I don't think it does normally. Unless maybe if you're a giant, but that's not "normally".

I would also assume that since they're creating one here specifically for the task, angles, length, and blade geometry would not be standard for a scythe, but similar enough to be identifiable as one. A normal scythe cuts at a sharp angle to the blade, not nearly perpendicular as most bladed weapons (other than heavily curved swords and such), so make it more efficient. For a combat-designed one, you'd have a different angle and blade shape.