Ishigami Senki - Vol. 4 Ch. 19 - Hornless
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There's not always a stone grain. Or at least, nothing so convenient like some massive weakness like that.
Practicality above justice. Makes sense.
So stone people who lose their horns won't have horned children, even if both were born with horns. That's some magical genetics. And they're also human compatible. But two stone people can't have children, unless one of them loses their horns. Doesn't make a lot of sense.
Practicality above justice. Makes sense.
So stone people who lose their horns won't have horned children, even if both were born with horns. That's some magical genetics. And they're also human compatible. But two stone people can't have children, unless one of them loses their horns. Doesn't make a lot of sense.
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And she’s forgiven, just like that 
Well I understand that they’re in a hurry so they can’t really argue right now, but they don’t even doubt any of her words, even though she was a double spy for more than a decade… well I guess she’s gonna die sacrificing herself to save Mio at some point to close the case.
Thanks for the translation
Well I understand that they’re in a hurry so they can’t really argue right now, but they don’t even doubt any of her words, even though she was a double spy for more than a decade… well I guess she’s gonna die sacrificing herself to save Mio at some point to close the case.Well if you take it as some magical inheritance it can make a little of sense, the power of the horns is lost when they loose the horn so it can’t be transmitted to the children. The power in the horn prevent to have children if both of the parents have it. Since humans and stone people don’t have that power, they can reproduce. Something like that I guess
Thanks for the translation
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Then don't finish the sentence saying it doesn't make sense lol
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Go, boy, and save your stoned wife.
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That's literally what I didn't say.
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It's still kinda weird, it's genetic yet somehow can be partially lost even as genetics, then gradually lost completely, but isn't lost when horned are mating with ordinary humans which is only possible way for them to reproduce, until they lose their horns. So horns are also cockblocking them? And you say "when they lose horn, power of horns can't be transmitted to children" but having children doesn't make them lose their power AFAIK, so they don't transmit it, it's genetic but also it also relies on magical organ.And she’s forgiven, just like that
Well if you take it as some magical inheritance it can make a little of sense, the power of the horns is lost when they loose the horn so it can’t be transmitted to the children. The power in the horn prevent to have children if both of the parents have it. Since humans and stone people don’t have that power, they can reproduce. Something like that I guess
Thanks for the translation
It's such a weird mix of magical genetics and magical organ (horns), and I don't feel like it's better than more conventional approach like seen in Tolkien, both with genetics and with decline of magical power. Seems unnecessarily convoluted and even for magical trait too different from real life inheritance and evolution/devolution of traits. I can buy Aragorn having magical lineage with his royal genes surfacing more in him, as well as people of Gondor having in general gradually lose their "better" genes through centuries, because it feels more realistic despite it all being magic. This here is more like curse from description, but is caused by body damage yet last for generations.
Also it means if all but one of stone people would get their horns broken, their power would just be gone for good? Kinda lame. At least make it depend on some altar to stone gods, or big ass magic crystal that is source of their power.
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The horns are hereditary, but that doesn't mean they're genetic, at least not entirely. While trying to apply real-world science to fantasy stories with magic is always fraught, there is actually a fairly reasonable way that the horn inheritance could work. The horns could produce some "magic" hormone or other chemical that, when present during gestation, induces horn development in the child. Lose the horn and that chemical is no longer there, thus the child is hornless too. That chemical might also be structured such that men and women create slightly different versions that behave the same normally but destructively interfere when in each other's presence, thus making it impossible for two horned stone people to have children. The power fading each generation could also be hormonal, or perhaps there's some kind of genetic information that's in an unstable configuration and slowly degrades when not in the presence of the magic chemical.
But it's probably for the best to just accept that it's magic and magic is always kind of arbitrary. On the scale of how much disbelief you need to suspend to accept fantasy contrivances, this feels pretty low to me.
But it's probably for the best to just accept that it's magic and magic is always kind of arbitrary. On the scale of how much disbelief you need to suspend to accept fantasy contrivances, this feels pretty low to me.
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And she’s forgiven, just like that
TL here, I wouldn’t necessarily say Mio forgave Nagi. It felt like to me that Mio was more upset about Nagi not valuing her own life, nor their friendship. Back in chapter 18, despite learning the truth, Mio was going to sacrifice herself to save Nagi.
To be fair Nagi was a spy against her will since childhood, while also keeping her true identity a secret; assuming if Komase didn’t already know. Damned if she obeyed, damned if resisted. She was only looking out for Mio, her only friend and family. She didn’t seem to care at all about Komase, nor Takadono’s ambitions. Also she’s a Hornless, she can tank and no-sell most weapons.
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Well....She could at some point reveal to her about the conspiracy, at the very least when the war started. Her espionage created a lot of problems. She could at that moment reveal everything and basically reverse her wrongdoings. It doesn't take a genius to understand that her actions could actually make Mio self delete herself and it doesn't take a genius to understand that they wouldn't let Mio go.
Like how stupid and demented can you be to think that letting your beloved friends family massacred is a good thing, like i expect that thing from my nemesis. Letting me live, with the thought that the person i saved was a key element in my families destruction. In Japanese history overtaken lords were usually beheaded or forced to do seppuku (while wifes were raped and killed after at best).
Author didn't think through how objectively those actions look like.
Basically author of this story brings too much shounen energy here disregarding thought processes that would 100% pass through Nagi's mind, especially considering that she herself lives in a world of lies and deception SHE MUST think that believing in words of another traitor is wishful thinking.
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@Monn12
She was forced to be a spy since childhood. Would anyone seriously believe a child that informs them about a conspiracy or possible betrayal? Who would the Watatsumi Family trust more? Komase, there very loyal high-ranking soldier with a clean record, or Nagi, the little girl who tried to rob them? Not to mention both of her parents were Takadono’s spies, which Komase could easily prove. If you were a child with everything to lose, no family, no one to back you up, would you honestly say you’d totally have the courage to do it?
Nagi only got along with Mio; and she’s Mio’s servant and bodyguard. Ushio had Ikari, and Minato had Komase and his squad (sort of…). It makes perfect sense why she wouldn’t care much about the rest of the family. Mio clearly still loves Nagi like a sister, and again despite learning the cold hard truth, Mio was still willing to switch places with Nagi so she wouldn’t have to suffer. She’s a Hornless, you CAN’T kill her with conventional means of execution. Mio did say she can’t forgive Nagi’s actions, and deserved to be punished.
Not punishing Nagi right away, is probably the wisest decision right now. It’s not like our heroes are still in the midst of an ongoing war or anything right? Nagi’s combat abilities, experience, and tough as stone skin are very, very much needed. She’s one of the few characters that can hold her own against the One-Eyed Hawk pretty well. Enami’s army can take all the help they can get. Mio and Isaza understood this fact very well. They’re both playing the long game.
Can it still be considered bad writing when one doesn’t look at things from a larger picture?
She was forced to be a spy since childhood. Would anyone seriously believe a child that informs them about a conspiracy or possible betrayal? Who would the Watatsumi Family trust more? Komase, there very loyal high-ranking soldier with a clean record, or Nagi, the little girl who tried to rob them? Not to mention both of her parents were Takadono’s spies, which Komase could easily prove. If you were a child with everything to lose, no family, no one to back you up, would you honestly say you’d totally have the courage to do it?
Nagi only got along with Mio; and she’s Mio’s servant and bodyguard. Ushio had Ikari, and Minato had Komase and his squad (sort of…). It makes perfect sense why she wouldn’t care much about the rest of the family. Mio clearly still loves Nagi like a sister, and again despite learning the cold hard truth, Mio was still willing to switch places with Nagi so she wouldn’t have to suffer. She’s a Hornless, you CAN’T kill her with conventional means of execution. Mio did say she can’t forgive Nagi’s actions, and deserved to be punished.
Not punishing Nagi right away, is probably the wisest decision right now. It’s not like our heroes are still in the midst of an ongoing war or anything right? Nagi’s combat abilities, experience, and tough as stone skin are very, very much needed. She’s one of the few characters that can hold her own against the One-Eyed Hawk pretty well. Enami’s army can take all the help they can get. Mio and Isaza understood this fact very well. They’re both playing the long game.
Can it still be considered bad writing when one doesn’t look at things from a larger picture?
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1) I didn't mean to reveal straight up but to reveal later on when the war started. Considering the situation and her position at that time she could consult with her "sister" and later bring it to brouder public.
Like i stated before a person who is living in deception (intelligence and spy stuff) always think and consider the option of playing as double agents or being betrayed by "allies".
She on the other hand obsoletely had no reason to believe what that nobles tells her:
1st He himself is a traitor, by definition believing in his words is plain dumb.
2nd Mio's position is of a noble, if every male died in her family she would be the inheritor thus forcibly marrying her off to their ally would make that "ally" de facto ruler. (Meaning it was impossible from pure logical stand point that she would be freed/saved.
3rd Whenever invasions happen, especially in pre-christian nations and/or Asia all of the nobility is executed and women of the household are raped/enslaved/killed off (rarely married off).
2) That makes it even more egregious that despite her betrayal and due to her actions hundreds if not thousands deaths (though indirectly). Her love for the traitor is something parents have towards children. Rape me instead of this POS traitor, like really? Let's even consider that she is a noble......it doesn't logical compute with me that a noble is willing to be raped instead of someone who has a mission to safeguard her from that....like a complete opposite of what the roles should be.
3) About the punishing thing, while it's good that author noted that it is indeed an unforgivable act we should understand the basic premise of this story, meaning it's shounen like.
For example, she would be verbally reprimanded and given a punishment like a slap on the wrist due to her "achievements" later on, like go to the village X or serve the mistress loyally from now until death.
The other thing i expect (least likely) she will die via self-sacrifice.
The ol'phrase. But there are multiple uses for it. Main one being: Keep a close eye via spies or by close proximity to your enemy BUT never let them know that you know. If said enemy knows they were exposed they will be acting on their best behaviour.
+ It's not that sort of manga which would apply old wisdom, it's already soiled many wisdoms.
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@Monn12
1.) Nagi’s number one priority is protecting Mio. Telling Mio the truth accomplishes nothing. Komase could easily twist and defend himself against any “false” accusations. He groomed Nagi, from childhood, into being a spy; this negative experience distorted her way of thinking and view on life. Not to mention he has a long standing relationship with the Watatsumi Family, and the rest of Enami. Who would actually believe her? Komase had friends (in both Enami and Takadono) that can back him up, and easily discredit and silence Nagi. I’m sure she already knew he could.
Remember how the whole army distrusted Minato (because his biological father was from Takadono) to the point of blindly ignoring his poorly worded advice/warning which lead to many deaths as well as separating Isaza from Yachiho? Something similar would have definitely happened with Nagi.
Komase personally knew Nagi’s parents; I’m assuming he never knew that Nagi and her father were Hornless. He exploited the fact that Nagi was an orphan, the daughter of Takadono’s spies, had no family, and didn’t want to be left alone. Any child would crack under that kind of pressure well into adulthood. Komase had the means to ruin Nagi’s life if she ever disobeyed his orders. Nagi operated under the assumption she’d spare Mio from any harm. Once again, she doesn’t seem to have a good relationship with the Watatsumi Family (or rather never established one), she only cares about Mio. Mio was the only one who reached out to her when she was at her lowest.
Takadono, Hiiragi, and Komase’s goal is to wipeout the Watatsumi Family, NOT marry into them. Then take control of Enami.
2.) You don’t understand how love works do you? People will sometimes sacrifice themselves to save their loved ones (even pets). Even if that loved one betrayed them. That is very realistic.
To Nagi’s credit she was willing to turn herself in, and accept any punishment that came with it. But Mio clearly doesn’t want her to die. Mio is the only girl in her family, she cherishes her friendship/sisterhood with Nagi. She never thought it was fake, Nagi even admitted it wasn’t. Things would’ve been different if Komase hadn’t interfered.
What pisses Mio off more is how Nagi is acting like a servant, bodyguard, sacrificial lamb on auto mode instead of like a friend or sister. Nagi puts her job and loyalty to Mio over her own life. She always valued Hayato and Mio’s lives, never her own. That’s why Isaza entrusted Mio’s safety to Nagi. Nagi has said she was willing to sacrifice anything to protect Mio. She never had the experience of caring for others. Whereas Komase had plenty of friends, and values having a good career, life, and future.
3.) Once again, Nagi’s not getting punished right now because she’s highly valuable. If anything I can see Nagi becoming the new Ikari, and Komase with her own squad. Let’s be honest, Enami’s military sucks and the Watatsumi Family knows it; which is why they were initially hesitant on going to war with Hiiragi. Nagi’s combat abilities cannot be denied, she’s near invincible, it’s a perfect way to keep a close eye on her, and the girl really needs friends and a family. She’s got literally nowhere else to go. Sometimes recruiting an enemy or former enemy can further improve your military might and morale.
Yes she was a spy, but honestly I’d say Komase did more damage than her. He actually had connections with Takadono, Nagi was just his puppet under the false guise of an adopted daughter. Nagi’s job as a spy was only reporting to Komase on Watatsumi Family’s whereabouts, day to day activities, and behavior, that’s it. I don’t think she was required to continue this task in the middle of a war with all 4 family members present. Komase, the high ranking retainer, was the one giving away Enami’s war plans and strategies to the One-Eyed Hawk and Hiiragi. Nagi wasn’t actually responsible for anyone’s demise. Though Taikai (poisoning, Nagi didn’t do it but her reports likely contributed) and Isaza came pretty damn close.
I feel that phrase is very appropriate for this situation, and overall plot. Because that’s how war works. This isn’t Shounen manga bullshit, this happens in reality all the time. Today’s friends and allies can become tomorrow’s enemies; and vice versa. Is it bad writing if the reader doesn’t view the plot from a bigger picture?
1.) Nagi’s number one priority is protecting Mio. Telling Mio the truth accomplishes nothing. Komase could easily twist and defend himself against any “false” accusations. He groomed Nagi, from childhood, into being a spy; this negative experience distorted her way of thinking and view on life. Not to mention he has a long standing relationship with the Watatsumi Family, and the rest of Enami. Who would actually believe her? Komase had friends (in both Enami and Takadono) that can back him up, and easily discredit and silence Nagi. I’m sure she already knew he could.
Remember how the whole army distrusted Minato (because his biological father was from Takadono) to the point of blindly ignoring his poorly worded advice/warning which lead to many deaths as well as separating Isaza from Yachiho? Something similar would have definitely happened with Nagi.
Komase personally knew Nagi’s parents; I’m assuming he never knew that Nagi and her father were Hornless. He exploited the fact that Nagi was an orphan, the daughter of Takadono’s spies, had no family, and didn’t want to be left alone. Any child would crack under that kind of pressure well into adulthood. Komase had the means to ruin Nagi’s life if she ever disobeyed his orders. Nagi operated under the assumption she’d spare Mio from any harm. Once again, she doesn’t seem to have a good relationship with the Watatsumi Family (or rather never established one), she only cares about Mio. Mio was the only one who reached out to her when she was at her lowest.
Takadono, Hiiragi, and Komase’s goal is to wipeout the Watatsumi Family, NOT marry into them. Then take control of Enami.
2.) You don’t understand how love works do you? People will sometimes sacrifice themselves to save their loved ones (even pets). Even if that loved one betrayed them. That is very realistic.
To Nagi’s credit she was willing to turn herself in, and accept any punishment that came with it. But Mio clearly doesn’t want her to die. Mio is the only girl in her family, she cherishes her friendship/sisterhood with Nagi. She never thought it was fake, Nagi even admitted it wasn’t. Things would’ve been different if Komase hadn’t interfered.
What pisses Mio off more is how Nagi is acting like a servant, bodyguard, sacrificial lamb on auto mode instead of like a friend or sister. Nagi puts her job and loyalty to Mio over her own life. She always valued Hayato and Mio’s lives, never her own. That’s why Isaza entrusted Mio’s safety to Nagi. Nagi has said she was willing to sacrifice anything to protect Mio. She never had the experience of caring for others. Whereas Komase had plenty of friends, and values having a good career, life, and future.
3.) Once again, Nagi’s not getting punished right now because she’s highly valuable. If anything I can see Nagi becoming the new Ikari, and Komase with her own squad. Let’s be honest, Enami’s military sucks and the Watatsumi Family knows it; which is why they were initially hesitant on going to war with Hiiragi. Nagi’s combat abilities cannot be denied, she’s near invincible, it’s a perfect way to keep a close eye on her, and the girl really needs friends and a family. She’s got literally nowhere else to go. Sometimes recruiting an enemy or former enemy can further improve your military might and morale.
Yes she was a spy, but honestly I’d say Komase did more damage than her. He actually had connections with Takadono, Nagi was just his puppet under the false guise of an adopted daughter. Nagi’s job as a spy was only reporting to Komase on Watatsumi Family’s whereabouts, day to day activities, and behavior, that’s it. I don’t think she was required to continue this task in the middle of a war with all 4 family members present. Komase, the high ranking retainer, was the one giving away Enami’s war plans and strategies to the One-Eyed Hawk and Hiiragi. Nagi wasn’t actually responsible for anyone’s demise. Though Taikai (poisoning, Nagi didn’t do it but her reports likely contributed) and Isaza came pretty damn close.
I feel that phrase is very appropriate for this situation, and overall plot. Because that’s how war works. This isn’t Shounen manga bullshit, this happens in reality all the time. Today’s friends and allies can become tomorrow’s enemies; and vice versa. Is it bad writing if the reader doesn’t view the plot from a bigger picture?
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1) You make a valid point. I would even say that i'm being pissed off that despite having this zealous loyalty and living the life of an agent she didn't consider sharing the truth with Mio.
Your arguments are sound and logical, i complete agree with you. I just "feel" wronged somehow by the development.
I understood that it would be stupid to outright tell about everything after being saved but the eventual moral dilemma when they became like sisters? I would have expected her to share with Mio but i also understand what you are trying to say.
I thinks it's more dependent on character. My character (not perfect) and her actions are like water and oil. What she did and was doing is completely disgusting and her willingness to take punishment later on doesn't in any shape or form decrease the sentence in my mind (Eventual death sentence).
But after reading your argumentation i simply realised that i was basing it more on my personal bias, i utterly hate betrayals and consider acts of betrayals as something that must be punished regardless of achievements.
Your arguments are sound and logical, i complete agree with you. I just "feel" wronged somehow by the development.
I understood that it would be stupid to outright tell about everything after being saved but the eventual moral dilemma when they became like sisters? I would have expected her to share with Mio but i also understand what you are trying to say.
I thinks it's more dependent on character. My character (not perfect) and her actions are like water and oil. What she did and was doing is completely disgusting and her willingness to take punishment later on doesn't in any shape or form decrease the sentence in my mind (Eventual death sentence).
But after reading your argumentation i simply realised that i was basing it more on my personal bias, i utterly hate betrayals and consider acts of betrayals as something that must be punished regardless of achievements.
2) As above stated, i cannot give credit to someone who was already exposed and my conscious decision of betrayal.
As for self sacrifice and love......When i was a bit younger i think i would be more liberal with that, now though?
I have a more or less clear hierarchy and boundaries to amount of sacrifice i'm willing to make to different categories of people.
The only one i can forgive of betraying me are my children. Not my parents, wife, siblings or friends. They are dead to me if they dare to betray me. Betrayal in my opinion is basically a declaration that our previous relationship status was traded for their own benefit.
I understand that in Nagi's mind she wasn't betraying but that is only her subjective opinion, objective opinion would be - It was betrayal.
As for self sacrifice and love......When i was a bit younger i think i would be more liberal with that, now though?
I have a more or less clear hierarchy and boundaries to amount of sacrifice i'm willing to make to different categories of people.
The only one i can forgive of betraying me are my children. Not my parents, wife, siblings or friends. They are dead to me if they dare to betray me. Betrayal in my opinion is basically a declaration that our previous relationship status was traded for their own benefit.
I understand that in Nagi's mind she wasn't betraying but that is only her subjective opinion, objective opinion would be - It was betrayal.
3) Once again agreed with everything you say. I even understand why she wouldn't be punished right away, i didn't like her theatrics about offering her head right away (like offering it straight away while crisis is still at hand and her help is needed to resolve everything is seen (by me at least) as theatrics for dramatics and manipulation in order to garner positive points.
Keeping her as a tactical weapon is indeed beneficial.
My bone to pick about this, is that most likely she won't get punished and will get a slap on the wrist. More than likely after the revelation of her betrayal attitude towards her won't change much and eventually even her betrayal would be seen as something long forgotten. As i stated this might be my personal bias, i simply dislike when people who betray (in many Japanese mangas, shounen especially) are forgiven easily.
Keeping her as a tactical weapon is indeed beneficial.
My bone to pick about this, is that most likely she won't get punished and will get a slap on the wrist. More than likely after the revelation of her betrayal attitude towards her won't change much and eventually even her betrayal would be seen as something long forgotten. As i stated this might be my personal bias, i simply dislike when people who betray (in many Japanese mangas, shounen especially) are forgiven easily.
P.S. Thank you for detailed answer without any insulting remarks. You've actually managed to change my opinion on the situation though i still "feel" wronged by the story. It will depend on how will they deal with her betrayal afterwards.
Once again thank you, reading your post was a nice surprise.
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@Monn12
Your arguments were equally understandable. Especially the one about self-sacrificing for family you actually care for, and they care about you.
The betrayal is a very serious act. I’m pretty sure Nagi was fully aware of how serious her actions were, and that things were not going to end positively for her.
I’m not entirely sure how Kohinata-sensei will conclude this issue. It could go either way, and I’m still looking forward to it.
You’re very welcome! I’m just doing my job as this manga’s translator. I constantly reread older chapters to ensure newer translations stay accurate and consistent. I love working on this manga. I genuinely want people to enjoy reading Kohinata-sensei’s work.
Your arguments were equally understandable. Especially the one about self-sacrificing for family you actually care for, and they care about you.
The betrayal is a very serious act. I’m pretty sure Nagi was fully aware of how serious her actions were, and that things were not going to end positively for her.
I’m not entirely sure how Kohinata-sensei will conclude this issue. It could go either way, and I’m still looking forward to it.
You’re very welcome! I’m just doing my job as this manga’s translator. I constantly reread older chapters to ensure newer translations stay accurate and consistent. I love working on this manga. I genuinely want people to enjoy reading Kohinata-sensei’s work.
