Issak - Vol. 3 Ch. 11 - The Crown Prince Revisited
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Japan wasn't that much warring as was Europe.
Also they had bad iron.
Also they had bad iron.
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Suddenly chinese repeating crossbow.Also, must be funny if he returns home with a european waifu later.
Japan and catapult? I call BS. Been to almost all Sengoku related museum and such but have never once seen or read any of such construct in Japan. Battering ram wasn't even there, too. Heck, crossbow was not even common back then.
Rifle did make an appearance with Nobunaga's interest in it though.
Rifle did make an appearance with Nobunaga's interest in it though.
I understood Issak's story more as people from Japan have to look into new strategies considering they are engulfed in war due to the large amounts of warlords. In other words, he has it easier to come up with innovative strategies due to the need to be able to adapt for survival.
Also, this applies to any country who are at war, not exclusively to Japan.
Also, this applies to any country who are at war, not exclusively to Japan.
@seirio And innovation on the battle in Japan is almost next to 0. Only Nobunaga and Hideyoshi showed interest in advancements of warfare since those 2 wanted to invade further outside of Japan. The rest? Same old samurai spirit stuffs.
Siege tactic alone, no Japanese castle, museum, etc. I have gone to so far showed any thing of catpult, trebuchet, balista (sorry for spelling here). EU, on the other hand, has crazy minds like Leonardo da Vinci and his war machine.
Also, this is set on the 17th century. Tokugawa period (Edo) is from 1600+ if memory serves, so honestly, which war?
Let's say Issak is from end of Sengoku, beginning of Edo then the warring he experienced is very limited. He is what, mid 20s or 30s? And how long has he been in EU?
I'm not trying to say this manga is bad but the inconsistency in time period kind of throw me of.
The mangaka at least did not go full Japan steel katana praising with the whole "slicing metal like mud".
I went to see a modern day sword master in Japan performed once. And to slice wood cleanly in half is already very impressive.
Siege tactic alone, no Japanese castle, museum, etc. I have gone to so far showed any thing of catpult, trebuchet, balista (sorry for spelling here). EU, on the other hand, has crazy minds like Leonardo da Vinci and his war machine.
Also, this is set on the 17th century. Tokugawa period (Edo) is from 1600+ if memory serves, so honestly, which war?
Let's say Issak is from end of Sengoku, beginning of Edo then the warring he experienced is very limited. He is what, mid 20s or 30s? And how long has he been in EU?
I'm not trying to say this manga is bad but the inconsistency in time period kind of throw me of.
The mangaka at least did not go full Japan steel katana praising with the whole "slicing metal like mud".
I went to see a modern day sword master in Japan performed once. And to slice wood cleanly in half is already very impressive.
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Yup. I read somewhere that soldiers during that time (or maybe a century later, not sure) would still do that stupid thing of announcing themselves before fighting. I don't know shit about honor or valor, but I'm pretty sure that's the dumbest thing ever, up there with shounen jump and Capcom heroes shouting out their moves before actually executing them.
I seriously dislike faux historical like this one. If the author wants to compensate for his insecurity for being an Asian male in a Caucasian male dominated world with his fantasy, just set it in a fictional universe with similarity to our world such as Imperial Guards. Just basic common known historical facts are enough to cease the suspension of disbelief: Japan was extremely peaceful in contrast to Europe. Japanese swords can't handle the force from a swing by European weaponry. Guns at the time cannot shoot that far the accuracy is similarly extremely low, not to mention the damage from a round bullet at the time traveling that far would have extremely poor penetration, which was why nobody wants to adopt guns on mass because it was expensive and difficult to use effectively until Nobunaga created extreme condition for arquebusier to shine, even then some might argue Nagashino would have been won either way, just not as decisively. Japanese was extremely short, even for the period, which was why the Chinese called them midget pirates. Having Japanese stature on European soils would be similar to today South East Asians in Europe. There's no way he could have been able to fight effectively, let alone killing a much more physically able European with his Asian stature.
Also, wouldn't fortress roofs be tiled? If not tiled, I don't think spear could penetrate or break the roof so easily.
The myth that Asian nations could be fighting on equal footing to European military shall be continued by the Japanese until the end of time. Poorly supplied Russian at Port Arthur and outnumbered British and American soldiers in the beginning of World War 2 perpetuate the myth. Western civilizations are heads and shoulder above the rest of the world in fighting. The Japanese avoided colonization because they bowed to the warship and not trying in vain to reclaim some sort of pride. The best show the Asian ever held was actually the Chinese during the Korean War, at the cost of massive casualties. Self delusion would only lead to ruinous result.
Also, wouldn't fortress roofs be tiled? If not tiled, I don't think spear could penetrate or break the roof so easily.
The myth that Asian nations could be fighting on equal footing to European military shall be continued by the Japanese until the end of time. Poorly supplied Russian at Port Arthur and outnumbered British and American soldiers in the beginning of World War 2 perpetuate the myth. Western civilizations are heads and shoulder above the rest of the world in fighting. The Japanese avoided colonization because they bowed to the warship and not trying in vain to reclaim some sort of pride. The best show the Asian ever held was actually the Chinese during the Korean War, at the cost of massive casualties. Self delusion would only lead to ruinous result.
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@zek777: This is not really correct. For example there were others who remodeled the use of cavalary in Japan towards a shock role instead of the skirmish role. New types or armors and weapons were also rapidly adapted. Such as guns for sieges. Mail armor. Curases. The switch from naginata to yari as weapon for mass warfare, making their infantry formations much like the Gewalthaufen in europe.
Regarding sieges: Read the manga Sengoku. It has a great attack on a small castle, the tactics are pretty much modern stuff. Get close under cover, use grenades to take out towers, break open or get over defenses quickly and alpha strike the troops inside.
Also catapults would be rather useless for many japanese castles. They used several layers of defenses. Inbetweens were build labyrinth like to ease defense. Just lobbing stones from the outside won't do much.
As for your boner for da vinci: Well he was more or less the only out of the box thinker at that time, you overestimate europe. It also was very stagnant for long times.
Also the 30-year war was 1618-1648. The Tokugawa shogunate 1603 - 1868. Not much time had passed since the establishment of the shogunate. Sort of ok from a story point of view.
@duylinh: Holy shit are you projecting much. Let me guess, white nationalist? xD
Japan freshly came out of a several century free for all melee at that time. The time that would it make peaceful compared to europe layed before it.
Regarding the Katana: The european swords in use have thin blades as can be seen. Whenever he cuts someone open, he does so though weak points like the sides of a curass. Never just cutting steel in half.
The point of the damn story is that their guns (MC and antagonist) are special. Did you even read it? Is this plausible? Under Rl metrics? Not really. But under the rules set up by the story? Why not? We did not see other guns perform as well as their two.
You realize that europeans also were a lot smaller then? Try visiting historical buildings from that time. Furthermore the MC is nobility , not commoner like the pirates you discribe. Nobles always had better nutrition everywhere on earth, thus tended to be bigger.
As for the roofs: They cut them from he inside, tilting only works from the outside. They also do not use "spears" but helebards. Those have much more mass.
"The myth that Asian nations could be fighting on equal footing to European military shall be continued by the Japanese until the end of time." Mongols, Arabs, Persians, Ottomans and Seljuks say hi. Each of the mopped the floor with many "western" armies of their times.
"Western civilizations are heads and shoulder above the rest of the world in fighting. " - Seek help man, your world view is beyond simple minded.
"The Japanese avoided colonization because they bowed to the warship and not trying in vain to reclaim some sort of pride. " - Wrong, see above. Learn some history.
"The best show the Asian ever held was actually the Chinese during the Korean War, at the cost of massive casualties. " - Also Vietnam. As for Korea: China was fresh out of it's civil war, they had lots of people with battle experience but the military infrastructure was in shambles. They had for example no air force. Yet, those veterans wrecked the murricans so hard, that only the UN soldiers, the US looked down uppon saved the US forces from getting destroyed as a fighting unit. Again your view on history is very simple minded.
As for Vietnam: A recently independent nation defeated a coalition of the biggest military on earth and large contingents of its puppet regimes. After defeating its colonial overlord, hard. Both while having only a miniscule fracture of the military capabilities of each france and the US.
"Self delusion would only lead to ruinous result." - I give that right back at you. Your view of history fits it well.
Regarding sieges: Read the manga Sengoku. It has a great attack on a small castle, the tactics are pretty much modern stuff. Get close under cover, use grenades to take out towers, break open or get over defenses quickly and alpha strike the troops inside.
Also catapults would be rather useless for many japanese castles. They used several layers of defenses. Inbetweens were build labyrinth like to ease defense. Just lobbing stones from the outside won't do much.
As for your boner for da vinci: Well he was more or less the only out of the box thinker at that time, you overestimate europe. It also was very stagnant for long times.
Also the 30-year war was 1618-1648. The Tokugawa shogunate 1603 - 1868. Not much time had passed since the establishment of the shogunate. Sort of ok from a story point of view.
@duylinh: Holy shit are you projecting much. Let me guess, white nationalist? xD
Japan freshly came out of a several century free for all melee at that time. The time that would it make peaceful compared to europe layed before it.
Regarding the Katana: The european swords in use have thin blades as can be seen. Whenever he cuts someone open, he does so though weak points like the sides of a curass. Never just cutting steel in half.
The point of the damn story is that their guns (MC and antagonist) are special. Did you even read it? Is this plausible? Under Rl metrics? Not really. But under the rules set up by the story? Why not? We did not see other guns perform as well as their two.
You realize that europeans also were a lot smaller then? Try visiting historical buildings from that time. Furthermore the MC is nobility , not commoner like the pirates you discribe. Nobles always had better nutrition everywhere on earth, thus tended to be bigger.
As for the roofs: They cut them from he inside, tilting only works from the outside. They also do not use "spears" but helebards. Those have much more mass.
"The myth that Asian nations could be fighting on equal footing to European military shall be continued by the Japanese until the end of time." Mongols, Arabs, Persians, Ottomans and Seljuks say hi. Each of the mopped the floor with many "western" armies of their times.
"Western civilizations are heads and shoulder above the rest of the world in fighting. " - Seek help man, your world view is beyond simple minded.
"The Japanese avoided colonization because they bowed to the warship and not trying in vain to reclaim some sort of pride. " - Wrong, see above. Learn some history.
"The best show the Asian ever held was actually the Chinese during the Korean War, at the cost of massive casualties. " - Also Vietnam. As for Korea: China was fresh out of it's civil war, they had lots of people with battle experience but the military infrastructure was in shambles. They had for example no air force. Yet, those veterans wrecked the murricans so hard, that only the UN soldiers, the US looked down uppon saved the US forces from getting destroyed as a fighting unit. Again your view on history is very simple minded.
As for Vietnam: A recently independent nation defeated a coalition of the biggest military on earth and large contingents of its puppet regimes. After defeating its colonial overlord, hard. Both while having only a miniscule fracture of the military capabilities of each france and the US.
"Self delusion would only lead to ruinous result." - I give that right back at you. Your view of history fits it well.
I am Vietnamese so I can tell you none of the militaristic achievements were even close to what you are imagining. First to address the "rule of the story" thing. If you are setting your own rules, then do as I say and create a fictional setting, don't use real historical settings for a yellow savior story. You are also wrong in that the Chinese called the Japanese midget pirates, because they are usually pirates and they are short, for both reason. The Japanese were shorter than the contemporary Chinese. Even during the 1880 which is after a long period of stability, the Japanese soldiers heights were at 157. Just look at the difference between Western military advisor and Japanese: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hakodate#/media/File:BrunetAndTeam.jpg . We actually have research and bones from middle age European height which varies but the lowest during 16th to 17th century is about 167, still 10 more than the Japanese during the 1880. You also don't seem to understand how roofing works, even from the inside, the planks cannot be broke so easily with small forces it means the roof shouldn't be able to support the weight of someone standing on top of it. Look at the way he depicted the roof breaks apart, it's crumble, however that is a small detail, I concede that. Now, I can discussed every armies you mentioned and why they are all flawed: The Mongols never fought beyond the Eastern Europe. The furthest was Hungary which were much weaker than their Western knights. The Arabs won in Spain, and lost in France and then lose Spain. the Persian won initially but got their entire empire conquered, the Ottomans were winning until they hit Malta and when the European band together to fight them instead of doing back door politics and in Vienna they beat the Ottoman and in World War 1 the British lost in Gallipoli but ultimately beat the Ottoman, not to mention the Russian victory in the North. Seljuk took Anatolia but never managed to finish off Constantinople until the Ottoman and they even lost to the band of bandits so called Crusaders until a finally united Muslim army take back Jerusalem.
You should learn history first and see how Asia was colonized by the Western nations. Only Japan and Thailand who bowed to the Western nations demands and adopting their military format manage to survive colonization and form their own Empire. The rest of Asia was occupied, colonized in one way or another. China fresh out of civil with experience army, Soviet weaponry and air force (the Soviet provided the air force) with element of surprise managed to pushed the overextended UN army and when they regrouped, the Chinese attacks hit a wall and got decimated. The UN weren't interested in further military action to reclaim the entire Korean Peninsula, that was general MacArthur ambition. That's why there were no further offensive operation after the UN took back lands around the 38th parallel. You certainly knows nothing about the Vietnam war and is only familiar with its result rather than how the military situation developed. The Vietnamese didn't won the war on the battlefield, they won on the table. The French did not want to commit further to the war as were the American, whose public opinion of the war turned sour. Meanwhile the Vietnamese public was generally ignorant of the general situation and were easy recruits for the Communist. The most famous French defeat in Vietnam was the Battle of Dien Bien Phu which was the only battle the Vietnamese won tactically and strategically during the first and second Indochina wars. They lost every single other engagement. The American was under even greater restriction. Because they were in for a protective mission, they did not have the permission to push beyond the border similar to the Korean War where an offensive action led to the escalation of the war and potentially another Chinese mobilization and interference. Regardless, in a fight, the West has no equals, at all. That's why to compete with the West historically it was also better to out trade them not out fight them. The Ottoman lasted so long because they provided an important and stable trade system to the East and the moment the West got their own trade route, the Ottoman falls. I am sorry but my view of history is rather too realistic for your taste, I don't like to indulge in fantastic gratification such as the author or perhaps you. Read more history.
You should learn history first and see how Asia was colonized by the Western nations. Only Japan and Thailand who bowed to the Western nations demands and adopting their military format manage to survive colonization and form their own Empire. The rest of Asia was occupied, colonized in one way or another. China fresh out of civil with experience army, Soviet weaponry and air force (the Soviet provided the air force) with element of surprise managed to pushed the overextended UN army and when they regrouped, the Chinese attacks hit a wall and got decimated. The UN weren't interested in further military action to reclaim the entire Korean Peninsula, that was general MacArthur ambition. That's why there were no further offensive operation after the UN took back lands around the 38th parallel. You certainly knows nothing about the Vietnam war and is only familiar with its result rather than how the military situation developed. The Vietnamese didn't won the war on the battlefield, they won on the table. The French did not want to commit further to the war as were the American, whose public opinion of the war turned sour. Meanwhile the Vietnamese public was generally ignorant of the general situation and were easy recruits for the Communist. The most famous French defeat in Vietnam was the Battle of Dien Bien Phu which was the only battle the Vietnamese won tactically and strategically during the first and second Indochina wars. They lost every single other engagement. The American was under even greater restriction. Because they were in for a protective mission, they did not have the permission to push beyond the border similar to the Korean War where an offensive action led to the escalation of the war and potentially another Chinese mobilization and interference. Regardless, in a fight, the West has no equals, at all. That's why to compete with the West historically it was also better to out trade them not out fight them. The Ottoman lasted so long because they provided an important and stable trade system to the East and the moment the West got their own trade route, the Ottoman falls. I am sorry but my view of history is rather too realistic for your taste, I don't like to indulge in fantastic gratification such as the author or perhaps you. Read more history.
@kazaddum I was talking about technology in warfare, not tactic. Sorry if I was being unclear.
As for change in tactic, yes, most wars have to have that or else it would be the same old "count the number of troops" type.
Nobunaga with guns again Takeda with horses is a famous example.
Again, I stated my opinion from my 5 years in Japan, mostly spent my time visiting museums and old castles. Far as I can see, no technology advancement in warring or somehow the Japanese deems it unnecessary to record them.
Armor too is mostly wooden. The metal armor you stated is only for higher commands.
Chain mails was there but curases?? The metal plates with rivets?? Can you show me a picture?
Gun for siege is cannon or just rifle that is bigger? Never seen canon anywhere in the pre and early Edo period sections.
Catapult is still very good if you take a look at Japan castle walls. Those are not bulky stone walls like EU. Hell, add oil & fire into that too. Kyoto was on fire just from the summer heat. Also, the outer wall for castles in Japan are lower while the main building in the middle is tall and in the middle so hitting the main building inside is possible with good math.
That type of structure is perfect for raining down arrow on infantry but for siege weapons?
Also, labyrinth? I don't get it...
As for the manga Sengoku, thanks for your suggestion.
Will check it out.
Ok, so our MC is in the 1618~ period. How old is he to be able to get war experience? Edo is from 1603 so he has to be around 15~ (assuming youngest possible) during the war (Tokugawa again the leftover of Hideyoshi). So 15 + 15 = 30 at least.
Also, if he is in Edo period, another noteworthy is that Tokugawa hate foreign stuffs and the government was pro peace. Thus leading to many rebels from warriors without job. So warring experience, especially with siege from a young man who is an apprentice of a gun smith? He had to be gaining experience from his time in EU so let's add another 5 years into it. Is our MC in his 35~ age range? This I cannot say since it's the art of this manga to make our MC looks handsomer.
STOP staring at my boner for da Vinci!!!
As for change in tactic, yes, most wars have to have that or else it would be the same old "count the number of troops" type.
Nobunaga with guns again Takeda with horses is a famous example.
Again, I stated my opinion from my 5 years in Japan, mostly spent my time visiting museums and old castles. Far as I can see, no technology advancement in warring or somehow the Japanese deems it unnecessary to record them.
Armor too is mostly wooden. The metal armor you stated is only for higher commands.
Chain mails was there but curases?? The metal plates with rivets?? Can you show me a picture?
Gun for siege is cannon or just rifle that is bigger? Never seen canon anywhere in the pre and early Edo period sections.
Catapult is still very good if you take a look at Japan castle walls. Those are not bulky stone walls like EU. Hell, add oil & fire into that too. Kyoto was on fire just from the summer heat. Also, the outer wall for castles in Japan are lower while the main building in the middle is tall and in the middle so hitting the main building inside is possible with good math.
That type of structure is perfect for raining down arrow on infantry but for siege weapons?
Also, labyrinth? I don't get it...
As for the manga Sengoku, thanks for your suggestion.
Will check it out.Ok, so our MC is in the 1618~ period. How old is he to be able to get war experience? Edo is from 1603 so he has to be around 15~ (assuming youngest possible) during the war (Tokugawa again the leftover of Hideyoshi). So 15 + 15 = 30 at least.
Also, if he is in Edo period, another noteworthy is that Tokugawa hate foreign stuffs and the government was pro peace. Thus leading to many rebels from warriors without job. So warring experience, especially with siege from a young man who is an apprentice of a gun smith? He had to be gaining experience from his time in EU so let's add another 5 years into it. Is our MC in his 35~ age range? This I cannot say since it's the art of this manga to make our MC looks handsomer.
STOP staring at my boner for da Vinci!!!
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Darn, do all Archer-class servants have Eagle Eye..?
Wait, this guy's not even a servant. Well, he's close enough.
Wait, this guy's not even a servant. Well, he's close enough.
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Japanese war tactics were actually horrible. Sure they warred for centuries, but it was entirely among themselves, which led to incredibly ritualistic, inefficient combat. The warriors themselves were seen as quite skilled by Europeans though.
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