Physical attraction is not limited to genitals, nor are sexual preference labels limited in such a way either, as no woman who is a lesbian becomes not a lesbian for being with a trans woman
I'm going to ask that readers remain respectful and mindful of their words when commenting about transgender topics on this manga. I am reading several trans exclusionary takes (ie that are factually wrong & harmful) and want to remind everyone to avoid transphobic and homophobic remarks as they are against the "Comments and Forum" rules (specifically 5.1.4), and may be reported to the staff.
As much as I love discussions in the comments, I do not think these discussions can be civilly had here on this page's thread without first educating oneself on transgender struggles and politics; the internet is literally global and Trans rights and identity are still a new concept to understand for some people, so I do not fault anyone their ignorance.
This is one of the first openly transgender mangas that I have read that is treating the content with a respect I did not expect a publisher to allow in Japan, and as such that means transgender and questioning individuals can find their representation here and can "claim" it as their space. This manga was specifically written with transgender issues in mind, as well as for cisgendered friends/allies also navigating transgender struggles alongside them.
I would also like to state a fact written by the mangaka themself in the creation of this series: Akira is a girl. They say so repeatedly in several chapters, and her validity to her womanhood is not up for debate.
Going into further discussion while purposely ignoring this fact is erasure and will likely lead to harmful, transphobic comments, whether intended or not.
Purposely misgendering Akira as a boy, despite her repeated assertions of her gender, is transphobic speech and unwelcome in this thread.
To be transgendered means to identify as a gender different from the gender assigned at birth based on the bodies' sex organs. Gender and sex are different things. Whether you fully believe that truth is something you personally need to do yourself, outside these comments, in order to become a better, more enlightened person.
What a bigoted, not to mention misguided knee jerk reaction manifesto. Just deal with the fact that l's and g's don't seem to want to associate themselves with gendered folk on intimate levels. Not to mention that attitude extends to 11% of tq people themselves (which is disgusting).
This is one of the first openly transgender mangas that I have read
For whatever reason, you guys are always unwilling to do your due diligence when it comes to searching for quality material regarding issues that allegedly interest / concern you - even when it's literally two clicks away. That's quite telling.
Purposely misgendering Akira as a boy, despite her repeated assertions of her gender, is transphobic speech
Whether you fully believe that truth is something you personally need to do yourself, outside these comments, in order to become a better, more enlightened person.
Hi @mikegnesium , when I wrote my replies I was making a blanket statement covering the previous twenty comments I had read, not just yours, because I've seen topics on the internet involving transgender issues devolve into unhealthy, hurtful arguments and hate speech. I don't want that to happen here with this manga, as it is beautiful and I think it will help alot of people do soul searching and ask the right questions like "How can I best help transgendered individuals in my community?" like Sasaki-sensei does. (They are totally one of my favorite characters! I want to read more of them and Hime interacting! <3)
I do think it's wrong of you to assume and speak on behalf of all lesbian, gay, or other queer orientations in regards of their attraction towards transgendered people; you may not prefer it, but that does not mean others do as well. It is a point of contention within LGBT+ communities that is harmful in invalidating transgender identities, and I don't think this is the place to have that discussion. If you'd like we can discuss this more in PM so as not to needlessly clutter this page.
Except sans two, mine included, the rest is one minded bigotry circle jerk fest. It's pretty clear you were reacting to the latest, so how about being honest?
I do think it's wrong of you to assume and speak on behalf of all lesbian, gay, or other queer orientations in regards of their attraction towards transgendered people;
I do think you need to mind that little fascist persona of yours. Besides, I wasn't "speaking on anyone's behalf" - I've linked the summary of the study (which isn't really a study, but at this point we all know how rigorous socially oriented journals are in their publishing choices), presented on q friendly site, which clearly shows that they very likely aren't. Even those rare examples that would be open to enter such relationships would still go with people of their preferred sex. Which was in direct opposition to what the post that I was replying to claimed.
Yes, how fascistic of me to warn people they are spreading false, transphobic rhetoric and to please consider whether what they have to say is helpful or harmful towards transgender folx. I should have been more clear;
[ul]
[*] trans*women ARE women.
[*] trans*men ARE men.
[*] as such they ARE lesbians & gays respectively if they find themselves attracted to the same gender as their own.
[*] to deny/invalidate someone's label as gay/lesbian based on body parts is bigotry, and it is transphobic because it erases their identity in favor of their body parts (which btw are no one's business but a person's own).
[*] attraction is unique to each individual, meaning no one's forcing people to be attracted to the feminine penis or the masculine vagina or any variation thereof. The level of attraction to these traits does not negate a person's identity, and to say it does is small-minded bigotry.
[*] not all attraction has to be sexual to be valid.
[*] it's that simple.
[/ul]
We can't have positive, deep discussions on trans topics if the basis of someone's opinion or argument is built on the erasure of a trans folx' labels they've chosen for themselves.
Akira is a girl, Hime is a girl and is in love with Akira, therefore this is a Girl's Love story (or shoujo ai or yuri, depending on localization).
Speaking of... the mangaka often draws androgynous, non-binary characters, and that makes defining the relationships of this story as difficult and messy as it is to define in our own reality. Hime is introduced as a girl with a very aggressive, masculine personality, and the act of her pushing gender norms at her school for Reasons, gives me the impression the mangaka wishes to write a story of a character exploring her identity.
Sasaki-sensei even says it's ok to experiment during her time at school, which opens the possibility of Hime trying out labels to suit her.
Following the mangaka's style, it's likely Hime may decide they are also trans, or she may come to realize she is still a girl but decided she isn't constrained by Japanese gender roles (because enforced gender roles are dumb). That's the beauty of this manga; all the supporting characters so far are literally supporting Akira and Hime's agency to decide their labels for themselves, because no one can decide that but the individual, and no one can rightfully force a label onto them without causing them harm.
Frankly, this manga is more woke than the communtiy I live in right now, so I'm living for it! Hime's predicaments really makes this story for me, and I'm enjoying reading how infallible and good they are as they all navigate an already difficult time in their life.
Bella ciao~ 😂
Oookay, some serious flame-fest down there. Whatever.
Well. Whatever the politics of it, and leaving aside for the moment just how perfectly it represents whoever's view of the current state of the art in thinking about genderedness, gender relations and whatnot, I think this is a pretty cool manga. The characters are striking and energetic, with quite different styles and approaches, and a lot of what's going on really feels driven by the characters' interactions and their particular ways of responding to what's going on. It bogs down a bit in preaching and introspection, but that's a pretty much unavoidable hazard of going into this territory and I think it handles that stuff pretty well (note "well" in this case meaning that it does a good job reflecting the thinking of good-hearted kids and a fallible teacher or two, not that it brings us the wisdom of the perfect deity of all-genderedness). As a manga, as a story about characters, I like it.
On the general subject of how people deal with issues around LGBTQ+ stuff and how the discourse about it goes, here's an insight from an apparently completely unrelated book:
Rhetoric plays an even more vital role in a time of troubles when standard responses no longer achieve expected results and conscious choices must be made continuously about previously routine matters. Since basic communal values are now being contested, advocacy is put under closer scrutiny. And since the first application of new communal values to specific problems is apt to be particularly ambiguous, advocacy and justification are correspondingly more vital. All of this helps to explain why revolutionaries talk so much.
I haven't read the whole comment section as it seems pretty inflammatory, but I'm seriously bothered about the way this manga's theme is tagged. I know that usually LGBT+ questions are handled at best badly in manga, and this is why the "Crossdressing" theme exists on Mangadex, but chapter 1 of this manga (and the rest of it) makes it very clear that we're not dealing here with a crossdresser but a trans woman. Would it be possible to have "Queer", "LGBT" or a "Transgender" theme instead?
That "Crossdressing" classification sounds rude at best, and it sort of undoes the work of a pretty thoughtful manga... It makes me sad.
I dont't know where to ask but I hope something can be done about this, it would make an already great manga reader even more enjoyable. Thanks! 🙂
@descending_angel87 yeah, it obviously should have the crossdressing tag because Hime is crossdressing. But shouldn't it also get a yuri tag? Because the manga itself has stated that Hime's not attracted to Akira as a man, and that their relationship, if they had one, would be one between 2 women.
There's really nothing to say to someone that speaks in precooked platitutes, so I'll just cherry pick another set of "greatest hits":
to deny/invalidate someone's label as gay/lesbian based on body parts is bigotry, and it is transphobic because it erases their identity in favor of their body parts
To apply sexual labels based on one's own perspective is homophobic. How dare you identify Hime as lesbian, where in first chapter she clearly states that from her point of view she became infatuated with a "boy"? Following that trail of "logic", your earlier statement "looks like shoujo ai to me" is in clear violation of one of the rules cited here earlier. By you.
But you see, data seem to imply something opposite. You may cover your ears and scream otherwise as much as you want, but social engineering does not grant you the access to human firmware. Groin wants what groin wants. Following that directly:
Akira is a girl, Hime is a girl and is in love with Akira, therefore this is a Girl's Love story (or shoujo ai or yuri, depending on localization).
Going by timestamps, Hime did not fall in love with a "girl" - she fell in love with a guy that she knew forever. There's no indication of her being attracted to any of her female bodied (what.) friends.
And aside from everything, changing the tags is rather rude to people who want to read actual GL (or avoid it). It may come as a shock to you, but real life lesbians seems to be rather disgusted by penises and male physique. Now, I could hop on a whole new dialogue tree branch here and point out how it's homohateful of you to indirectly invalidate their sexual identity, but why would I?
That's a real doozy. This is a romance, right? The context here are "romantic relationships". It's either eros or philia, and eros always comes with at least some degree of venus. You're either obliviously stating something dumb, or purposefully trying to change the context. Please don't do that.
@mikegnesium Well, it is true that not all love has to be sexual in nature. You yourself mentioned philia, which the Ancient Greeks valued over eros. There’s also pragma, which is enduring love that can be found in old married couples, ludus, which is playful love between two young lovers or even just friends goofing off, storge, which is familial love (can also be applied to childhood friends), philautia, self-love, and finally agape, unconditional love. The only kinds of love that specifically include a sexual nature is Eros and mania. Mania is the obsessive love where a person feels they need another to feel validated, in other words, the unhealthy kind of love.
This title is about romantic love, right? Reading the manga, you can also see there's sexual component involved in the lead attraction's emotional makeup. All previous comments, mine included, referred specifically to it. I didn't like the vague "not all attraction has to be sexual to be valid", that ignored this.
Therefore, what's your point?
On an absolute sidenote, no one's raging about Himegoto tags for example. People that get offended or "seriously bothered" here just react to a thing that was put in front of their eyes, while at the same time they never pursuing further reading in genre that is allegedly close to their hearts. That's how I know most compassionuts on Mdx are just full of shit and screaming out fashion statements.
@mikegnesium I mentioned pragma and ludus, which can be a form of romantic love without any of the sexual connotations. Besides, there are people who feel no sexual attraction whatsoever, but still fall in love anyways. Like how there’s people who would bang someone no matter how awful their personality is if they’re hot enough, there’s also people who fall in love based on personality and the time spent together in spite of having a face that looks like a truck ran over it. Besides, I highly doubt Belle fell in love with the beast because she wanted to "tap that". There’s even people who are sex-repulsed but are still in romantic relationships. Lust and love aren’t the same thing after all.
@ AnonDePlume
Dude, really - I still don't get what you're saying. None of those qualify to describe what's happening in the comic, or relate to the context in which physical / romantic attraction was talked about earlier.
Besides, there are people who feel no sexual attraction whatsoever, but still fall in love anyways
Then I'd argue that their love is not romantic (instead being a very deep friendly variant), and those people can't relate to the concept as is understood here. Other than that, even if it was was and they could, those are still fringes. Originally I was against stupid umbrella statements like "(physical) attraction is not limited to genitals" which are just not true when applied to general population, but still treated as some sort of weird commandments.
there’s also people who fall in love based on personality and the time spent together in spite of having a face that looks like a truck ran over it.
Okay, so? In majority of those cases, there's still need for skin to skin intimacy to occur in a relationship for it to be treated as romantic one, and instead of physicality being a starting catalyst for the whole thing, it follows after as its component.
More importantly, what does it have to do with the initial thing I was arguing, ie that attraction seems very likely to be limited by what's in whose pants?
Besides, I highly doubt Belle fell in love with the beast because she wanted to "tap that".
1. Does Hime's wearing of Akiras shirt per se count as crossdressing even if she's not doing it to emulate socially accepted male appearance but started doing it as some kind of political (?) move? I'm sorry, I'm just not really familiar with crossdressing culture.
2. I believe Mike is just ignoring (erasing?) ace people that despite not interested in sex still enter romantic relationships with others including non-ace ones.
