Kare to Kanojo no Sentaku - Vol. 1 Ch. 3

[dummyaccount12345]

@trapsarebetter
I know I'm just intruding on this conversation, and that this none of my business, but I fail to see how the term "NTR" is, as you put it, "an applicative only to the lesser minds of a self-inserter".

I mean, "NTR", in this case, would be netorare, which can pretty much be summed up as infidelity. Now, I must admit that this term gets thrown around a lot nowadays, and that, under the right circumstances, an instance of infidelity (or NTR, as it's commonly put) can play an important role in the development of the plot of a story. However, more often than not, it's entirely gratuitous. Manga authors, in a general way, don't have the same grasp of storytelling as novel authors do, and thus their attempts to add drama often come across as forced and grating. Drama is as good a drive as any when it comes to developing a story, but poorly done drama leaves a bitter taste than, say, poorly done action, or poorly done mystery, at least in my opinion.

Therefore, I view as valid and wholly logical the desire to avoid such instances when looking for a new story to read.

Forced drama, a playboll asshole, and NTR bait, (what @broadsword80 listed) most certainly does not a good a story make, as your comment would lead one to believe (especially if you note the modifier "forced" preceding "drama"). I can count on my two hands the number of mangakas who can weave those elements together into an interesting, quality story. Almost ways, they're nothing more than a recipe for a trainwreck, producing stories that are only enjoyed by people who derive pleasure from such things specifically, representing a group on the opposite end of the specter, yet analogous, in their desire to sate their debased desires through means of a story, to the vanilla-seeking self-inserters you mentioned.

That is why, even though I do not concern myself with when it comes to infidelity in published, written works, as the authors of such are usually masters of their craft and use such instances as solid storytelling vehicles, when it comes to manga I avoid "NTR" like the plague, because the skill required to properly handle this particular storytelling element is something most mangakas lack, resulting in poor stories that are, at least in my opinion, better off avoided.

Now, leaving logos aside and delving into pathos territory, I see nothing wrong with avoiding stories that contain aspects you're not fond of. There's nothing wrong with avoiding a story because it contains explicit scenes of gore, torture, rape, or whatever other wretched product the human mind can produce. Admittedly, compared to those things, infidelity most definitely is the lesser evil (if you don't consider the fact that rape and blackmail follow in the wake of NTR most of the time), but it's still an evil, nonetheless. Most people can't help but empathize with the protagonist of the story that they're reading; that what make fiction so magical to me: the ability to detach yourself from reality and immerse yourself in someone's life. Therefore, infidelity can, indeed, hurt the reader, especially if they delve too deep into the protagonist, and as such people are free to wish to avoid it. Moreover, as I previously stated, infidelity does not necessarily a good story make; there are many drama-filled masterpieces that conjure complex plots with no instance of such. Therefore, I don't find it strange to avoid it, especially considering that there are plenty of stories out there that are still very good without it.

Regardless, I rest my case. I wrote this, if you're wondering, for the same reason you replied, uninvited, to @broadsword80's comment in the first place: to share my opinion and introduce another perspective to this topic.

 

[Kinji]

What the fuck.

 

[Athanova]

👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

 

[BobTheSkrull]

Well, this is somehow less subtle a metaphor than X-Men, but I love it nonetheless.

 

[Benjansss]

@MrF0x although your mostly right as someone working on a biology degree I want to correct you, I can find no information on a slug that changes gender, most are simultaneous hermaphrodites (both sexes at once) which is very different from Sequential hermaphrodites (changes from one sex to another) although there are other Gastropods that do it, perhaps you were confused? and there are certainly no birds that do it (birds can very rarely take on secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite gender but don’t actually change gender) (chimaeras and Gynandromorphism is also a different thing)

 

[Sopu]

@Benjansss What about clownfish?

On another note~
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has Haruka's parents made an arranged marriage o . o, is that why Haruka might have run away?

 

[Neushaartje]

@dummyaccount12345

I mean, "NTR", in this case, would be netorare, which can pretty much be summed up as infidelity.

Certainly not for the term “n.t.r.” is frequently used when no such oath of loyalty has been made, but simply when a character has sex with another character than the reader's self-insert. The difference between for instance “harem” and “n.t.r.” is only of relevance to a self-inserter — for in practice it means “sex is happening that does not involve my self-insert”.

One man's “harem” is another man' s “n.t.r.”, and the difference is meaningless to the reader who has no self-insert.

However, more often than not, it's entirely gratuitous.

Quite right, but self-inserts shall only call out the “n.t.r.” when their self-insert is the cuck, rather than the hotwife; when their self-insert be the hotwife, they welcome it.

Forced drama, a playboll asshole, and NTR bait, (what @broadsword80 listed) most certainly does not a good a story make, as your comment would lead one to believe (especially if you note the modifier "forced" preceding "drama"). I can count on my two hands the number of mangakas who can weave those elements together into an interesting, quality story. Almost ways, they're nothing more than a recipe for a trainwreck, producing stories that are only enjoyed by people who derive pleasure from such things specifically, representing a group on the opposite end of the specter, yet analogous, in their desire to sate their debased desires through means of a story, to the vanilla-seeking self-inserters you mentioned.

But of course all the forced fluff the self-inserter is after does make a “good story”? Where there is no actual plot but the internal logic of the universe shall bend over backwards to ensure that the self-insert lead a happy life and obtain an implausible harem? — which again is then magically not “n.t.r”?

 

[Benjansss]

@Sopu yes clownfish along with several other species of fish can completely switch genders(Sequential hermaphrodites) the only other vertebrates that do this that I know of are a few frogs(yes Jurassic park wasn’t bs when it came to that). Another thing is that due to the fact many reptiles have temperature dependent sex determination (except for tuatara for which higher temperatures mean males, higher temperatures mean females OR for some low or high temperatures mean females and middle range means males, so 3 types), in a few species you can get an Individuals that are genetically male but physically female (male genotype female phenotype) which can mate and lay fertile eggs (Equivalent to a human women who can have babies but has xy chromosomes instead of xx), but as this individual would hatch with a female body instead of changing its body, it’s not quite the same, nature is wacky.

(ps arranged marriage is actually the first thing I thought as well given her age)

 

[dummyaccount12345]

@trapsarebetter

Certainly not for the term “n.t.r.” is frequently used when no such oath of loyalty has been made, but simply when a character has sex with another character than the reader's self-insert. The difference between for instance “harem” and “n.t.r.” is only of relevance to a self-inserter — for in practice it means “sex is happening that does not involve my self-insert”.

One man's “harem” is another man' s “n.t.r.”, and the difference is meaningless to the reader who has no self-insert.

That is a fair point. Like I mentioned, the term "NTR" does get thrown out a lot. What you said is correct: when people cry "NTR" even though there's no pledge of fidelity involved, as you put it, then it's nothing more than the reader's delusions. In any case, whenever I wrote "NTR" in my comment, I had actual NTR in mind. For example, given the context of this story, an instance of cheating that would happen after the two protagonists become romantically involved, which is likely to happen given the title; this is opposed to a case of "fake NTR", an example of which would be if the female lead had had sex within someone in the past, since, in that case, she had no relationship with the male lead, so she's simply doing her own thing.

Again, fair point, and I agree that a distinction must be made between actual "NTR" and accusations made by delusional readers.

Just one note: one's man harem is not necessarily another man's NTR. I mean, the girls in the harem may not have been involved with other men in the past. It'd be sophism to take that as the truth.

Quite right, but self-inserts shall only call out the “n.t.r.” when their self-insert is the cuck, rather than the hotwife; when their self-insert be the hotwife, they welcome it.

I disagree with this point, mostly because I have yet to come across a single instance in which readers self-insert themselves into the so-called "hotwife". I mean, I'm no expert on NTR, or on the human psyche, but even when it comes to NTR stories that are written from the woman's perspective (in many cases the husband does not even make an appearance), readers will still complain about NTR (again, I'm talking about actual NTR here). Although many people do loathe NTR do to their self-insertion tendecies, I do believe that many readers, if not the majority, dislike NTR simply because they don't like the idea of infidelity. Of course, there's still a hint of self-insertion behind that thought process, as the readers are inserting themselves in the echo of the husband of boyfriend, but the distate for cheating is usually the driving force behind their aversion, given the degree of self-insertion in such cases is very low, as there's not much to insert yourself in.

Of course, we're not talking about netori (in which the protagonist is the one taking someone else's beloved), which is a completely different beast and therefore must be analyzed in a different way (the shift in perspectives is a very important one).

But of course all the forced fluff the self-inserter is after does make a “good story”? Where there is no actual plot but the internal logic of the universe shall bend over backwards to ensure that the self-insert lead a happy life and obtain an implausible harem? — which again is then magically not “n.t.r”?

I already discussed your harem/"ntr" issue, so I won't mention it again.

Regarding what you said, never did I claim that forced fluff makes for a good story (while I'd, admittedly, prefer to read forced fluff over forced drama). I was simply making a point against poorly written infidelity. Just because I'm against a certain party doesn't mean I'm allied with the opposing faction. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend, despite what popular wisdom claims. I'm against "forced" stories as a whole.

 

[justforthelulz]

A monetary gift to the landlord? And it's usually the same amount as the security deposit?!

 

[Neushaartje]

@dummyaccount12345

That is a fair point. Like I mentioned, the term "NTR" does get thrown out a lot. What you said is correct: when people cry "NTR" even though there's no pledge of fidelity involved, as you put it, then it's nothing more than the reader's delusions. In any case, whenever I wrote "NTR" in my comment, I had actual NTR in mind. For example, given the context of this story, an instance of cheating that would happen after the two protagonists become romantically involved, which is likely to happen given the title; this is opposed to a case of "fake NTR", an example of which would be if the female lead had had sex within someone in the past, since, in that case, she had no relationship with the male lead, so she's simply doing her own thing.

Again, fair point, and I agree that a distinction must be made between actual "NTR" and accusations made by delusional readers.

Just one note: one's man harem is not necessarily another man's NTR. I mean, the girls in the harem may not have been involved with other men in the past. It'd be sophism to take that as the truth.

I'm not necessarily talking about the past but simply the præsent. I said what I said, that the term “n.t.r.” is frequently used for “sexual relations occur that do not involve the speaker's self-insert.”

The term “n.t.r.”, even by Japanese speakers, has also never implied actual infidelity and has always been used as I said it was, and how @broadsword80 used it.

I disagree with this point, mostly because I have yet to come across a single instance in which readers self-insert themselves into the so-called "hotwife"

Every so-called “harem” story ever?

Ayase, Kuroneko, Kanako, and Manami all got n.t.r.'ed at the end of Ore.Imo. when Kirino won. Of course, then there are no cries of n.t.r. from those that self-insert into Koyusuke, as he is the hotwife here.

If one self-insert into Kuroneko instead; it'd be a classic n.t.r. story about one's lover breaking up with one to date someone else.

I mean, I'm no expert on NTR, or on the human psyche, but even when it comes to NTR stories that are written from the woman's perspective (in many cases the husband does not even make an appearance), readers will still complain about NTR

You do not mean to seriously imply that only female characters can be hotwifes or that it's only bad when female characters do it, right?

But yes, self-inserters tend to be, without fail, extreme gendertards that can only self-insert into a character of their own gender. It's very common lexicon amongst them to use terms like “the m.c.” to refer to their self-insert, even when it not be the main character of the story but the deutaragonist, but simply the one that matches their gender, and thus the one they self-insert into.

I do believe that many readers, if not the majority, dislike NTR simply because they don't like the idea of infidelity.

Pfah! you should read the comments on Lust Geass — the male lead of the story has been committing infidelity for a while and not one of those male self-inserters bat an eye, but when the suggestion was even dropped that a female character would sleep with someone else, when said female character was note ven in a relationship with the male lead, they were all whining about how it could become “n.t.r.”.

It has naught to do with “infidelity” and everything to do with that the self-inserter, nigh without fail, is a lonely virgin with an incellish mentality who uses romance stories as escapism from his dreadful life, and cries a monsoon of tears when other characters than his self-insert are having sex.

Of course, we're not talking about netori (in which the protagonist is the one taking someone else's beloved), which is a completely different beast and therefore must be analyzed in a different way (the shift in perspectives is a very important one).

The difference between both is, again, purely a matter of whom one self-inserts into; it has nothing to do with “protagonist”, such as in the case of Lust Geass the story is æqually written from the perspective of all the characters, but as said, the self insert is in general a huge gendertard and can only self-insert into a character that matches his gender.

 

[ninjazz]

hmm. i feel like this is starting to stumble a bit. we've basically gone over things we already know and kind of just repeated the same thing over and over for a chapter.

also that other lady side-character did absolutely nothing. she just smiled knowingly like she's been there done that then walked away patting herself on the back.

not a good sign but i hope we're starting to open up to the main drama of the manga rather than these vague hints we've been getting since the first chapter. these strange NTR discussions are starting to get too detailed without knowing if it even is NTR.

 

[MrF0x]

@Benjansss
Thank you correction, also made corrections to my post so it will be fully right now.
Well, I guess mistake with slugs comes from my native language and birds was just mistake or just some memory mistake as I have read about this few years ago.
Anyway thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Especially nowadays when people take everything (like biological race or gender differences, dunno why people can't accept that we are just different from each other and it's good- but well this calls another longer discussion) as attack on them even when it's pure science.

 

[dummyaccount12345]

@trapsarebetter

I'm not necessarily talking about the past but simply the præsent. I said what I said, that the term “n.t.r.” is frequently used for “sexual relations occur that do not involve the speaker's self-insert.”

The term “n.t.r.”, even by Japanese speakers, has also never implied actual infidelity and has always been used as I said it was, and how @broadsword80 used i

Then I guess I'm out of the loop. As far as I'm aware, NTR did originally mean infidelity and it was just that certain readers tried to apply it more generally, in the way that you mentioned.

Every so-called “harem” story ever?

Ayase, Kuroneko, Kanako, and Manami all got n.t.r.'ed at the end of Ore.Imo. when Kirino won. Of course, then there are no cries of n.t.r. from those that self-insert into Koyusuke, as he is the hotwife here.

If one self-insert into Kuroneko instead; it'd be a classic n.t.r. story about one's lover breaking up with one to date someone else.

Oh. All right. Got it. Well, here, you are right. There's not really anything to discuss. Humans are hypocritical like that.

You do not mean to seriously imply that only female characters can be hotwifes or that it's only bad when female characters do it, right?

But yes, self-inserters tend to be, without fail, extreme gendertards that can only self-insert into a character of their own gender. It's very common lexicon amongst them to use terms like “the m.c.” to refer to their self-insert, even when it not be the main character of the story but the deutaragonist, but simply the one that matches their gender, and thus the one they self-insert into.

Oh, no, I didn't. I was just speaking in the broadest sense. Most all stories that are tagged as "NTR" make the hotwife the female character, so I took that approach. The reverse also does happen. It's bad both ways, without doubt. Then again, human hypocrisy and gender bias comes into play again.

Pfah! you should read the comments on Lust Geass — the male lead of the story has been committing infidelity for a while and not one of those male self-inserters bat an eye, but when the suggestion was even dropped that a female character would sleep with someone else, when said female character was note ven in a relationship with the male lead, they were all whining about how it could become “n.t.r.”.

It has naught to do with “infidelity” and everything to do with that the self-inserter, nigh without fail, is a lonely virgin with an incellish mentality who uses romance stories as escapism from his dreadful life, and cries a monsoon of tears when other characters than his self-insert are having sex.

I never did read Lust Geass, nor do I really have any intention to, but I do get what you're talking about. Again, even though this argument is already getting stale, it does all boil down to the hypocrisy that surrounds the "NTR" tag. And, bringing up your first point that I addressed, you're right: "NTR" is really only considered to be as such when it happens to the protagonist, not when the protagonist does it, and not when it happens to another character (although I've seen more than a handful of exceptions). So allow me to make a correction: "NTR roughly translates into infidelity that takes place when the protagonist's spouse cheats". Now, I still don't consider events in which a character not in a relationship with the protagonist cheats on him or her to be NTR; to me, that's simply the readers warping the meaning of the term.

The difference between both is, again, purely a matter of whom one self-inserts into; it has nothing to do with “protagonist”, such as in the case of Lust Geass the story is æqually written from the perspective of all the characters, but as said, the self insert is in general a huge gendertard and can only self-insert into a character that matches his gender.

I wouldn't really say it's JUST a simple difference of perspective. I mean, that's the essence of it, but the storytelling of netori *really* differs from NTR. The focus of the story is completely different. In NTR stories, the author normally focus on the infidelity taking places, and how it absolutely devastates the cuck, creating an atmosphere of depravity and, often, sorrow. When it comes to netori stories, they're usually far more light; little importance is really given to the infidelity itself, and it's more about the "conquest". Again, I am generalizjng, and discussing a mere difference of nuances, but you can't deny that those differences exist, and the reactions provoked on the readers differ accordingly; even though it's still the same act, the focus of the storytelling changes completely, so they can't really be regarded to be on the same level (even though, logically speaking, they are). I'll say this for the last time: it's all hypocrisy.

Honestly, though, we're getting away from the original point that I wanted to make with my first comment: forced drama, asshole playboy, and NTR bait do not a good story make.

@ninjazz
By the second comment, we were already only loosely talking about this story; I doubt there will be NTR taking place here (or at least that's what I'm hoping for). We were only using it as a backdrop to discuss NTR itself.

 

[ninjazz]

@dummyaccount12345 well NTR has been brought up since the first chapter. that or something generally dark.

still you gotta admit. those are some big walls of text up there about the devil's tag.

 

[Neushaartje]

@dummyaccount12345

Then I guess I'm out of the loop. As far as I'm aware, NTR did originally mean infidelity and it was just that certain readers tried to apply it more generally, in the way that you mentioned.

Not at all, the term simply literally means “sleeptheft” — it's about stealing a love; it's simply used when one's romantic interest walks away with another.

Oh, no, I didn't. I was just speaking in the broadest sense. Most all stories that are tagged as "NTR" make the hotwife the female character, so I took that approach.

No doubt the tagger was a male self-inserter then, had the tagger been a female self-inserter, then Ore.Imo. would be tagged as n.t.r..

it does all boil down to the hypocrisy that surrounds the "NTR" tag.

I wouldn't necessarily call it “hypocrisy” as, as I said, a matter of perspective and whom one self-inserters into. As I said, one man' s harem is another man's n.t.r. depending on whom one self-inserters into, which brings me back to my original point, that the distinction is meaningless for those that do not self-insert.

not when the protagonist does it, and not when it happens to another character (although I've seen more than a handful of exceptions). So allow me to make a correction: "NTR roughly translates into infidelity that takes place when the protagonist's spouse cheats". Now, I still don't consider events in which a character not in a relationship with the protagonist cheats on him or her to be NTR; to me, that's simply the readers warping the meaning of the term.

I disagree that it's about the protagonist; it's about whom one self-inserts into which need not always be the clear protagonist. Whereas it is quite clear that Kyousuke is the protagonist of Ore.Imo., in many other love stories it is unclear who the protagonist is and rather the story has two leads.

The most extreme example would be Queen' s Artist, the story had an ensemble cast of four main characters, but only one of them was a teenage male; it seems like many of the readers expected the teenage male to end up with a love interest at the end, which the teenage male was not interested in, but rather to become an artist; the story concluded with two of the other main characters ending up together, which the teenage male absolutely did not mind, and many comments here on MangaDex and elsewhere complained about “n.t.r.”; there was no love stolen; there was no infidelity; and the teenage male, whom they called “the m.c.” was no more a main character than the other three — it was quite simple: sex was happening that did not involve their self-insert, thus they called it “n.t.r.”.
For whatever strange reason, many seemed to expect till the end that the teenage male would get a lover, even though the story absolutely did not go into that direction.

I wouldn't really say it's JUST a simple difference of perspective. I mean, that's the essence of it, but the storytelling of netori *really* differs from NTR. The focus of the story is completely different. In NTR stories, the author normally focus on the infidelity taking places, and how it absolutely devastates the cuck, creating an atmosphere of depravity and, often, sorrow.

I would agree if that would be the exclusive use of the term “n.t.r.”, as said, it is used in a far broader sense.
There are indeed stories that are legitimately written from the perspective of the cuck, that deal with the pain the cuck experiences, but that is only a smal subset of what is called “n.t.r.” no more than will-they-or-won't-they is only a small subset of romance.

Honestly, though, we're getting away from the original point that I wanted to make with my first comment: forced drama, asshole playboy, and NTR bait do not a good story make.

Everything in fiction is forced; the universe always bends over backwards in unlikely ways to facilitate the auctor's direction. This story is about forced genderswap in an absolutely improbable way; the other parts of it that are forced are that they had no contact for years to allow it to be a surprise; the fact that Haruka cannot find his own apartment is a forced reason to have them live together.

You simply don't like tragic stories, but there's nothing more forced about it than anything else.

 

[dummyaccount12345]

@trapsarebetter
Honestly, this isn't getting anywhere. I think we've both already said our pieces, so we should probably leave it at that. Otherwise this could go on forever.

In any case, this was fun, so I must thank you for engaging in a discourse with me this way.

@ninjazz
Oh, there will probably be some NTR bait, but I don't think the author will go all the way. Honestly, this all started because she refused to reveal the reason she ran away from home (if I remember correctly), and that just raised all sorts of bad flags; I mean, once bitten, twice shy, after all (considering how many similar stories have gone down an undesirable route). And yeah, those were some really big walls of text, no doubt about that; it was the longest conversation regarding NTR I've ever had, and while the debate itself was fun, the topic left much to be desired, so hopefully this will be my last discussion regarding said subject.

 

[Hinulu_Nali]

@MrF0x there is also https://www.livescience.com/52247-guevedoces-girls-boys.html which seems to be a rather radical form of intersexuality. For the obvious reason it goes only in the Female > Male direction, since a man can't just grow a womb, while as you said with androgen resistance a XY genotype can have internal male organs, but externally female ones. Anyway in most gender bender works its mostly male to female ironically.

 

[AncientWatcher]

Maybe it's just the media I've enjoyed, but it seems like both of the girls here were lightweights with booze, though women don't usually need as much booze as men do to get drunk or a buzz.

 

[Kampfarsch]

Owie ouch my anatomy on page 4
Did her tits just quadruple in size for that panel holy smokes

@greatninja3 in what kind of fluffy magical candy world do you live where we can just create drugs to surpress rare hereditary diseases
Also yee haw to paying for and taking hormone affecting drugs for like the first 20 years of your life
That sure as shit wont fuck you up and be expensive as shit

Also what the fuck is up with this fedora tipping ntr discussion
You guys are sad