Kikori no Isekai Tan ~Tensei shita Shounen wa, Ono 1-pon de Nariagaru~ - Ch. 7 - Like a Flower, Being Praised Like a Hero and Fall

[jctsoi]

LMAO PAGE 10
HAHAHAH

Thank you!

And Page 35!

 

[finalm]

The key is imagination; i think no one thought about using it that way because label says “weapon breaker” so they think “a tool i can whack someone with like a broom”.

Well, so did he at first and it didn't take a big leap to arrive at the question "can I use it for whatever?". Come on, you can't tell me that you find it logical for an entire society used to having magic around (and presumably researching it) to lack the curiosity. It's been made clear that a good imagination is required to even use the "established" spells. It's really just a case of "didn't think of that", which is preposterously stupid writing...

 

[Shuzuchi]

The key is imagination; i think no one thought about using it that way because label says “weapon breaker” so they think “a tool i can whack someone with like a broom”.

Unless there is no such thing as magic researchers, or this is a brand new spell somehow, the idea that nobody has messed around to see what it could apply to is hard to believe. Unless these are just human-looking creatures but without the curiosity. A lot of mangaka lean on that trope.

 

[Caffeinated_MadMan]

Well, so did he at first and it didn't take a big leap to arrive at the question "can I use it for whatever?". Come on, you can't tell me that you find it logical for an entire society used to having magic around (and presumably researching it) to lack the curiosity. It's been made clear that a good imagination is required to even use the "established" spells. It's really just a case of "didn't think of that", which is preposterously stupid writing...

I think the theory that everyone who tried just died is a good one as from just taking a leg once he completely ran out of MP. Also not everyone has MP or good imagination so it wouldn't work for most people. Like he had to imagine the goblin's leg exploding for it to work - who can fucking do that on death's door and come out alive.

 

[finalm]

I think the theory that everyone who tried just died is a good one as from just taking a leg once he completely ran out of MP. Also not everyone has MP or good imagination so it wouldn't work for most people. Like he had to imagine the goblin's leg exploding for it to work - who can fucking do that on death's door and come out alive.

There's not a single mention anywhere that depleting all MP can be fatal though. As for not everyone having the requirements - yeah, that explanation could fly if we're talking about a small group of people, not a whole civilization. Just look at our world's history: while on the scale of all humans hardly anyone had what it took to develop relativity, there were still a good number of people who did develop it (it wasn't just Einstein). Given that this guy hardly seems like a gifted person (the whole premise is built on the idea that he isn't), I highly doubt working with that world's magic is in any way a comparable challenge.

Why would anyone do it on death's door? Kikori was able to practise and get the hang of a spell at home. No reason why that couldn't be the exclusive way to work on this.

 

[Caffeinated_MadMan]

There's not a single mention anywhere that depleting all MP can be fatal though. As for not everyone having the requirements - yeah, that explanation could fly if we're talking about a small group of people, not a whole civilization. Just look at our world's history: while on the scale of all humans hardly anyone had what it took to develop relativity, there were still a good number of people who did develop it (it wasn't just Einstein). Given that this guy hardly seems like a gifted person (the whole premise is built on the idea that he isn't), I highly doubt working with that world's magic is in any way a comparable challenge.

Why would anyone do it on death's door? Kikori was able to practise and get the hang of a spell at home. No reason why that couldn't be the exclusive way to work on this.

Wdym they showed and talked about it this chapter where if you run out of mana you will effectively faint or be unable to move which in the line of adventurers would mean death. Also to your point of world's history a lot of our world's history is people being too stubborn to look beyond the original purpose of something until someone with a little more creativity changed it. So when the book says "weapon breaking spell" no one thought to expand on it, especially if they are just normal folk and not researchers.

Another thing is that in a world with no mass communication, word would spread incredibly slowly so maybe the use has already been discovered, but it has not been spread. Like the only people who would discover this are the magic institute who would probably not reveal it to the public (these people are probably the most stubborn and may not even discover it with how fantasy tropes go), people who used it on accident and ended up dying, or someone actually trying to test it, but having no means of releasing it to the world. Then there is the limitation of imagination and mp which makes it so only a select few could actually pull it off which makes it even less likely to be known by the public. Also, even if the person to find it is not in the research institute who would openly tell people about their secret weapon that only they know?

Though another theory is that maybe the magic's use has already been discovered, but instead of not wanting to share it the one who originally discovered it found it so inefficient that using it on anything but weapons is useless. Like again he only took a leg using the spell once and ran completely out of mana

 

[finalm]

Wdym they showed and talked about it this chapter where if you run out of mana you will effectively faint or be unable to move which in the line of adventurers would mean death. Also to your point of world's history a lot of our world's history is people being too stubborn to look beyond the original purpose of something until someone with a little more creativity changed it. So when the book says "weapon breaking spell" no one thought to expand on it, especially if they are just normal folk and not researchers.

Another thing is that in a world with no mass communication, word would spread incredibly slowly so maybe the use has already been discovered, but it has not been spread. Like the only people who would discover this are the magic institute who would probably not reveal it to the public (these people are probably the most stubborn and may not even discover it with how fantasy tropes go), people who used it on accident and ended up dying, or someone actually trying to test it, but having no means of releasing it to the world. Then there is the limitation of imagination and mp which makes it so only a select few could actually pull it off which makes it even less likely to be known by the public. Also, even if the person to find it is not in the research institute who would openly tell people about their secret weapon that only they know?

Though another theory is that maybe the magic's use has already been discovered, but instead of not wanting to share it the one who originally discovered it found it so inefficient that using it on anything but weapons is useless. Like again he only took a leg using the spell once and ran completely out of mana

Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me. You're insisting on the notion, that such a thing must be discovered in battle or at least in the field, where fainting could get you killed - why? I'd understand the assumption if it was said that all spells were invented like that, because for some reason you need to feel that your life is in danger, but there's no such statement. You'd think if this was true, I'd be the first thing the girl told the MC, but she just muses that he probably doesn't have the MP to cast (which turns out wrong, so probably just about anyone can work the basics).

Even without today's digital communication, people kept in touch reguraly, especially scholars. True, it was slower, but that was also because few outside the scholars had much interest in what was being exchanged. In this world, advances in magic would logically be faster and more widespread - because there are a lot of people (adventurers) for whom such discoveries might mean the difference between life and death. Compare it to the rise of firearms and you'll see what I mean.

I really don't get why you think that "stubbornness" would really make a difference here. There were always "stubborn" people in positions of power that often had an interest in keeping advancements down, for many reasons. It was all for naught, that which works speaks far more loudly and comes out on top, no matter how powerful the people who wanted it gone were. Take the famous ban on crossbows by the Pope - the most powerful man in charge of the most powerful organisation at the time. No one respected it, the technology was just too useful.

No, maintaining secrecy is just not feasible on any real timescale. Can you name one important invention that has not spread far and wide within the decade it was discovered? Even nukes and not only did a lot of people die to keep the tech under wraps, they require special resoruces and a difficult process of enriching them, unlike a simple concept that just needs some imagination training.

I suppose he could have come at a very special time, when the method has been developed, but not yet widespread. However, as I mentioned aboce, that would be an extremely short time window and the only way the writing could justify it, is if he met someone who told him so.

 

[Shuzuchi]

I think the theory that everyone who tried just died is a good one as from just taking a leg once he completely ran out of MP. Also not everyone has MP or good imagination so it wouldn't work for most people. Like he had to imagine the goblin's leg exploding for it to work - who can fucking do that on death's door and come out alive.

He was on "death's door" because he got the shit kicked out of him. Besides the fact that they just said Kikori doesn't have a lot of magic power, so actual mages would have the leeway to experiment.

It's just a classic thing where no one is allowed to innovate until the MC arrives.

 

[Caffeinated_MadMan]

Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me. You're insisting on the notion, that such a thing must be discovered in battle or at least in the field, where fainting could get you killed - why? I'd understand the assumption if it was said that all spells were invented like that, because for some reason you need to feel that your life is in danger, but there's no such statement. You'd think if this was true, I'd be the first thing the girl told the MC, but she just muses that he probably doesn't have the MP to cast (which turns out wrong, so probably just about anyone can work the basics).

Even without today's digital communication, people kept in touch reguraly, especially scholars. True, it was slower, but that was also because few outside the scholars had much interest in what was being exchanged. In this world, advances in magic would logically be faster and more widespread - because there are a lot of people (adventurers) for whom such discoveries might mean the difference between life and death. Compare it to the rise of firearms and you'll see what I mean.

I really don't get why you think that "stubbornness" would really make a difference here. There were always "stubborn" people in positions of power that often had an interest in keeping advancements down, for many reasons. It was all for naught, that which works speaks far more loudly and comes out on top, no matter how powerful the people who wanted it gone were. Take the famous ban on crossbows by the Pope - the most powerful man in charge of the most powerful organisation at the time. No one respected it, the technology was just too useful.

No, maintaining secrecy is just not feasible on any real timescale. Can you name one important invention that has not spread far and wide within the decade it was discovered? Even nukes and not only did a lot of people die to keep the tech under wraps, they require special resoruces and a difficult process of enriching them, unlike a simple concept that just needs some imagination training.

I suppose he could have come at a very special time, when the method has been developed, but not yet widespread. However, as I mentioned aboce, that would be an extremely short time window and the only way the writing could justify it, is if he met someone who told him so.

1. Im not insisting it was discovered on a battlefield - im insisting that it would only be known to the public if someone random discovered it on the battlefield. Someone or a group of people testing the spell in a controlled setting would likely try to prevent the spread of it as it is a dangerous spell that can kill with just a touch. For example, you can see something similar with Arafoo Kenja no Isekai Seikatsu Nikki where mc makes a spell that is useable by the public, but then altered the spell so it couldn't be used freely. Whoever made the book could have also put such restriction by naming the spell "Weapon Breaker" to prevent the common person from using it (imagine trying to get a clear image of blowing off someone's head while thinking "Weapon Breaker").

2. Even if people kept in touch I still believe that if it is already discovered and not being withheld it still would take a while for it to spread. If it was in the capital and it was announced publicly it would likely spread like wildfire. But what if it was someone on the other side of the kingdom with no influence (I still do not believe this magic would be made public by a magic institute) by word of mouth it would take years for it to reach where mc is at (literally at the very edge of the kingdom). In the case of guns it was invented by China (which would become a trading hotspot) and spread to power houses such as Europe and France so they spread quickly. All of these places had millions of people so word traveled fast. Usually in medieval fantasy kingdoms have less than a half a million people so word is bound to travel slower and while there is magic that makes messaging easier it is likely expensive and unobtainable by common folk.

3. Stubbornness would really make a difference. It prevents people from experimenting and believing in new concepts. Think about how long it took for round Earth to be widely accepted (2000-4000 years) this is an extreme example, but I think it is more fitting than the crossbow. People probably looked at "Weapon Breaker" and think thats all there is why should it be anything else and never give changing it a shot. The only people who would would be those who are desperate, crazy, or want it hidden. Otherwise it would never be discovered. Even desperation is rare because in desperation usually you don't come up with ground breaking ways to use a spell. When I meant stubbornness I didn't mean about people not wanting the use the new iteration of the magic but stubbornness in not thinking of other uses for already patented magic.

4. Maintaining secrecy is very feasible in medieval times with no apparent war. Many things that were meant to keep secret were leaked by a spy or a traitor and I bet in the fantasy world, like all fantasy worlds, there is ways to keep that from ever happening such as a curse that instantly kills you when you try to talk about it. Also imagination training is much harder than you make it seem - you have to first think that there is other uses to an already declared magic which takes an innovative mind (very rare) and then you have to imagine a body part blowing off of a body and then spread that to people who may not believe you enough to test it ("HEY GUYS WEAPON BREAKER CAN BREAK FLESH AND BONE" -> "who the fuck is this drunkard?") and then they need the imagination and mana to pull it off. Imagine the backlash if you release this new discovery and the first people that try it dont have the mana or imagination and call you a fraud.

Idk obviously this is just speculation since at the end of the day it is whatever the author wants and whether he even chooses to make it a point (like make the girl surprised or the new guy label this as a different spell), but I feel like these are possible explanations on how it could not be widespread. I'm just saying it is not impossible and I wouldn't consider any of these an ass pull.

 

[finalm]

1. Im not insisting it was discovered on a battlefield - im insisting that it would only be known to the public if someone random discovered it on the battlefield. Someone or a group of people testing the spell in a controlled setting would likely try to prevent the spread of it as it is a dangerous spell that can kill with just a touch. For example, you can see something similar with Arafoo Kenja no Isekai Seikatsu Nikki where mc makes a spell that is useable by the public, but then altered the spell so it couldn't be used freely. Whoever made the book could have also put such restriction by naming the spell "Weapon Breaker" to prevent the common person from using it (imagine trying to get a clear image of blowing off someone's head while thinking "Weapon Breaker").

Okay, but that doesn't change anything - the fact remains that a rookie was able to do it after 1 night of training and just asking himself a simple question. You're bringing up the "secrecy" argument which I've already said can't work for any appreciable length of time, doubly so with something so simply concieved.

2. Even if people kept in touch I still believe that if it is already discovered and not being withheld it still would take a while for it to spread. If it was in the capital and it was announced publicly it would likely spread like wildfire. But what if it was someone on the other side of the kingdom with no influence (I still do not believe this magic would be made public by a magic institute) by word of mouth it would take years for it to reach where mc is at (literally at the very edge of the kingdom). In the case of guns it was invented by China (which would become a trading hotspot) and spread to power houses such as Europe and France so they spread quickly. All of these places had millions of people so word traveled fast. Usually in medieval fantasy kingdoms have less than a half a million people so word is bound to travel slower and while there is magic that makes messaging easier it is likely expensive and unobtainable by common folk.

Years is certainly an exaggeration with something this useful. Even if the creator has no means or motivation to spread it, eventually someone who has will pick up on it, unless said creator is a hermit who will shortly take the discovery to his grave - even then it should still spread, because in the real world, great discoveries were ALWAYS worked on in parallel by multiple people, often unknowingly by each other. We usually attribute the discovery to the first ones that published it (not always), but there have been others, just check out the history of whatever you like.

I'm not sure where you got that population number, but compared even to the so called dark ages, when civilization can be said to have regressed, there were about 60 mil. people in Europe alone. I can't think of any period where it would be even close to your number. It's something that could only be possible before the Paleolithic, when no real civilization could have existed and even then it seems like a strech. Something like that would be a miniature garden of a world, not at all a believable state, unless there was some major apocalypse underway that pretty much wiped humanity off the globe.

3. Stubbornness would really make a difference. It prevents people from experimenting and believing in new concepts. Think about how long it took for round Earth to be widely accepted (2000-4000 years) this is an extreme example, but I think it is more fitting than the crossbow. People probably looked at "Weapon Breaker" and think thats all there is why should it be anything else and never give changing it a shot. The only people who would would be those who are desperate, crazy, or want it hidden. Otherwise it would never be discovered. Even desperation is rare because in desperation usually you don't come up with ground breaking ways to use a spell. When I meant stubbornness I didn't mean about people not wanting the use the new iteration of the magic but stubbornness in not thinking of other uses for already patented magic.

What? Dude, literaly no one actually thought that the Earth was flat, pretty much ever. It's evident no matter which era's writings are analyzed. People were superstitious and sometimes though that the reason that ships didn't return from long voyages, was whatever lurked beyond the horizon, but rest assured, they knew what that horizon was.

What you're describing is just not how humanity works, someone else commented (and I agree) that this sounds like creatures that appear human-like but lack our curiosity. Because we are undendingly curious, often too much for our own good. I'm not saying every hay-slinging peasant was a tinkerer in his spare time, but there were plenty that would test the limits of contemporary knowledge and it wasn't limited to the nobility (though addmitedly, they had the most time on their hands). There's just no way a whole civilization would read what was written on the jar and never open it to see for themselves. This was true even when the jar was supposed to be sacred, given by a deity and touching it was a capital crime.

4. Maintaining secrecy is very feasible in medieval times with no apparent war. Many things that were meant to keep secret were leaked by a spy or a traitor and I bet in the fantasy world, like all fantasy worlds, there is ways to keep that from ever happening such as a curse that instantly kills you when you try to talk about it. Also imagination training is much harder than you make it seem - you have to first think that there is other uses to an already declared magic which takes an innovative mind (very rare) and then you have to imagine a body part blowing off of a body and then spread that to people who may not believe you enough to test it ("HEY GUYS WEAPON BREAKER CAN BREAK FLESH AND BONE" -> "who the fuck is this drunkard?") and then they need the imagination and mana to pull it off. Imagine the backlash if you release this new discovery and the first people that try it dont have the mana or imagination and call you a fraud.

No, it isn't feasible, if you think otherwise then my earlier question remains - can you name even one discovery with which it was successful for any reasonable amount of time? You seem to forget that these kinds of "arms races" between intelligence and counterintelligence are as old as mead. If there are methods of preventing knowledge leaking, then there are ways to counteract those methods.

Honestly I've no idea why you keep cricling to the "leg exploding" example. Fine, if you think it's so difficult to accurately imagine that, have it your way (though I can't see why), but my argument isn't really about this single spell - it's fun and all, but by itself nothing really that earth-shattering. I'm talking about how malleable magic is in general here. Even assuming that only the target can be changed, spells that heal can now repair objects and vice-versa, maybe even bring back the dead. That's just the tip of the iceberg, there's a reason every D&D game has strict rules on what consitutes an acceptable target for every spell, without that things go nuts. Now imagine if the target could be an abstract concept like "illness", "gravity", "existence" - suddenly simple effects don't look so simple, right? Even without such shenanigans, it's a world-changing paradigm that everyone would want a piece of.

Idk obviously this is just speculation since at the end of the day it is whatever the author wants and whether he even chooses to make it a point (like make the girl surprised or the new guy label this as a different spell), but I feel like these are possible explanations on how it could not be widespread. I'm just saying it is not impossible and I wouldn't consider any of these an ass pull.

If not an asspull then I can't see it as anything else than lousy writing. Like the other guy said before me: "no one is allowed to innovate before the MC gets there". I get that the author needs ways to keep people interested in the story and protagonist, but this is just cheap and antithesis to his own premise. Above all, a good fantasy story needs a believable setting, so if it centers around humanity, not some unknowable alien species, then the depiction must actually resemble human society.

 

[elrorro]

I love when authors bring logic and minmaxxing to magic. If it is a natural process it really doesn't make sense that a spell would affect a specific object, but instead produce a certain effect on every matter.

Yeah I like it too when they treat magic not as something static, but a form of science or tool that can change over time and with creativity.