Kimi wa Yotsuba no Clover - Ch. 50 - Straight to the point

[danbellucci]

I think so too. But being so adamant on something you're so wrong about makes me think it's an advice you should apply. We, on the other hand, are on the side of reason and science. You aren't even able to answer without twisting what we said, at this point.

Of perhaps you can. So I will help.
Firstly, can you really say that torture and humiliation can't be a wrong thing to do to a person ? If you can, I want to know when that would really be necessary. It seems to be wayyy too vicious to be useful, I think.
Secondly, are they at fault ? Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: The root of the problem is in bad adult figures like some parents and some teachers. I prefer to blame them than kids who are still forging their minds.
Thirdly, who even said that they're bad for no reason lol. Do you feel like that's our opinion ? It isn't, that makes no sense.

Also, parroting "naaaaah, if they're more people thinking one people is bad they are right it's obvious" is kinda funny because you're one vs many people here. So who is wrong here ? Huh ? Right, us. According to what you keep saying, at least.

Groups can be wrong. More specifically, the ones leading the other people can be wrong. Very frequently, if the group were to be called out by an adult, 27 of these students would say "it's these ones who told us to do that, we were just afraid !". And it's often true, but since they trusted them they didn't think the leaders could be wrong. It's very rare for a kid to have learned that you should doubt even about what your friends are saying.

You want things to be simple and convenient, but it isn't. If I bring 30 friends to say mean things to you because I think you're a menace to society I'm a bad guy even though we're 30 and you're alone. Because you don't deserve that even if I find your position despicable.

oh boy. what a page of nonsense.
I'll answer one question just to demonstrate that you didn't read and follow the argument properly and that all your other blathering questions are attacking strawmen

Thirdly, who even said that they're bad for no reason lol. Do you feel like that's our opinion ? It isn't, that makes no sense

It's right there in the post I'm replying to https://forums.mangadex.org/threads...0-straight-to-the-point.2428501/post-27756802
"If we talk about kids it is that 30 people are just bad for no reason."
Can you admit that that is asserted position of the person I was responding to and that you didn't read and track the argument properly?

"naaaaah, if they're more people thinking one people is bad they are right it's obvious" is kinda funny because you're one vs many people here. So who is wrong here ? Huh ? Right, us. According to what you keep saying, at least.

In society more broadly I'm not on my own in what I've said though, I'm actually in the majority. Also, my position isn't that the people who are on their own while everyone dislikes them or thinks they're wrong are always in the wrong. Just read my very first post and try to read it a little more carefully this time
You accuse me of wanting things to be simple and convenient, yet you inaccurately simplify and misrepresent my claims for your convenience since you can't refute what I'm actually saying. From the beginning and again more recently https://forums.mangadex.org/threads...0-straight-to-the-point.2428501/post-27752776 "I'm not saying it's true 100% of the time, it's just a trend." I've made it clear that I'm not making a claim about what happens 100% of the time, yet you try to prove me wrong with individual hypotheticals to insinuate that I'm claiming that the hypotheticals are impossible when I didn't.

Also, It's funny you claim to be on the side of science when the scientific research you guys appeal to actually supports me
https://forums.mangadex.org/threads...0-straight-to-the-point.2428501/post-27764977

 

[pompomshit]

oh boy. what a page of nonsense.
I'll answer one question just to demonstrate that you didn't read and follow the argument properly and that all your other blathering questions are attacking strawmen

It's right there in the post I'm replying to https://forums.mangadex.org/threads...0-straight-to-the-point.2428501/post-27756802
"If we talk about kids it is that 30 people are just bad for no reason."
Can you admit that that is asserted position of the person I was responding to and that you didn't read and track the argument properly?

In society more broadly I'm not on my own in what I've said though, I'm actually in the majority. Also, my position isn't that the people who are on their own while everyone dislikes them or thinks they're wrong are always in the wrong. Just read my very first post and try to read it a little more carefully this time
You accuse me of wanting things to be simple and convenient, yet you inaccurately simplify and misrepresent my claims for your convenience since you can't refute what I'm actually saying. From the beginning and again more recently https://forums.mangadex.org/threads...0-straight-to-the-point.2428501/post-27752776 "I'm not saying it's true 100% of the time, it's just a trend." I've made it clear that I'm not making a claim about what happens 100% of the time, yet you try to prove me wrong with individual hypotheticals to insinuate that I'm claiming that the hypotheticals are impossible when I didn't.

Also, It's funny you claim to be on the side of science when the scientific research you guys appeal to actually supports me
https://forums.mangadex.org/threads...0-straight-to-the-point.2428501/post-27764977

Banned for making terrible takes lmao

 

[DerekUlty]

oh boy. what a page of nonsense.
I'll answer one question just to demonstrate that you didn't read and follow the argument properly and that all your other blathering questions are attacking strawmen

It's right there in the post I'm replying to https://forums.mangadex.org/threads...0-straight-to-the-point.2428501/post-27756802
"If we talk about kids it is that 30 people are just bad for no reason."
Can you admit that that is asserted position of the person I was responding to and that you didn't read and track the argument properly?

In society more broadly I'm not on my own in what I've said though, I'm actually in the majority. Also, my position isn't that the people who are on their own while everyone dislikes them or thinks they're wrong are always in the wrong. Just read my very first post and try to read it a little more carefully this time
You accuse me of wanting things to be simple and convenient, yet you inaccurately simplify and misrepresent my claims for your convenience since you can't refute what I'm actually saying. From the beginning and again more recently https://forums.mangadex.org/threads...0-straight-to-the-point.2428501/post-27752776 "I'm not saying it's true 100% of the time, it's just a trend." I've made it clear that I'm not making a claim about what happens 100% of the time, yet you try to prove me wrong with individual hypotheticals to insinuate that I'm claiming that the hypotheticals are impossible when I didn't.

Also, It's funny you claim to be on the side of science when the scientific research you guys appeal to actually supports me
https://forums.mangadex.org/threads...0-straight-to-the-point.2428501/post-27764977

You really think you're on the majority ? Now, that's pure comedy. Also, I didn't submit any source, because I do think you wouldn't read it and even else understand it, based on what you're saying from the very beginning (and I was right, which I find hilarious because it's so fucking crazy you think the papers are saying the opposite of what they're explaining). You just want to be right, so you would never be convinced. At this point, you're just either saying "No it's you !" to everything I say to you, or just ignoring it.

Mea culpa on the first part of your answer, I did not care what that individual said, I just thought deep inside you'd put all of us in this bag, so I answered. If you agree it's only some of us, that's good. 😊

Oh, also...

Yuichi got what he deserved

the kids who are bullied are often the worst people of all

there are lessons in that.

Part of growing up is a little something called accountability. If no one likes you then that says more than a little about your behaviour.

Lessons in that.

You asked me to read previous posts by you. I'm trying to find where your position wasn't to put the blame on someone bullied in a manga very blatantly saying he's not in the wrong. Perhaps my intellect isn't enough to understand your genius brain. Or you could be trying to distort reality, either of those. You're wrong, you won't admit it, and you won't convince anyone otherwise.

Keep shouting into the void from now on, it seems I won't have anything interesting to read from you anymore. After all, I'm not fond of pages of nonsense either...

 

[arimareiji]

You really think you're on the majority ? Now, that's pure comedy. Also, I didn't submit any source, because I do think you wouldn't read it and even else understand it, based on what you're saying from the very beginning (and I was right, which I find hilarious because it's so fucking crazy you think the papers are saying the opposite of what they're explaining). You just want to be right, so you would never be convinced. At this point, you're just either saying "No it's you !" to everything I say to you, or just ignoring it.

Mea culpa on the first part of your answer, I did not care what that individual said, I just thought deep inside you'd put all of us in this bag, so I answered. If you agree it's only some of us, that's good. 😊

Oh, also...



You asked me to read previous posts by you. I'm trying to find where your position wasn't to put the blame on someone bullied in a manga very blatantly saying he's not in the wrong. Perhaps my intellect isn't enough to understand your genius brain. Or you could be trying to distort reality, either of those. You're wrong, you won't admit it, and you won't convince anyone otherwise.

Keep shouting into the void from now on, it seems I won't have anything interesting to read from you anymore. After all, I'm not fond of pages of nonsense either...

Good call.

I'm reminded of an old joke: A fanatic* is someone who won't change his mind, and won't change the subject.

* - I'm too old, so I'd be grateful if a youngun could update "fanatic" to something more fitting.

 

[SpecialProjectY]

"Nearly everyone is a bad person. Infact if everyone thinks someone is a bad person then really that's the only good person and they're all bad people. Everyone is a bad person except for me. Here's a scientific study proving it"
ok buddy whatever you feel like telling yourself.

What's your scientific study to prove otherwise?

Because your anecdote isn't an evidence.

 

[SpecialProjectY]

That is typically the case in these types of manga yes, even with the japanese norms Uichi should realistically have gotten help a long time ago.

Heck, you would expect SOME teachers to notice a student waltzing about in the school with a bat and bashing someone to death

I really have to wonder , is the teachers and other faculty members in these anime dumb and blind or what ???

Hey, you got paid minimum wage to teach some brats 20 or 30 per class and lost all the shine of "bringing knowledge to youths" ages ago after seeing how your work is appreciated little by little.
You would need to have real passion and nerves of steel to care for every single one of those ungrateful little shits.

Seen them care more about a handful of close pupils, as for the rest, nobody talks about fight club lol

 

[danbellucci]

You really think you're on the majority ? Now, that's pure comedy.

Yes , the majority do indeed believe that if 30 people think you're an asshole then you're probably the problem , not them. Do you know what "probably" means btw? You know it means something different from "definitely", right? The majority also believe that most people are good or decent rather than bad.

Also, I didn't submit any source, because ... [paragraph of blather]

nonsense

Mea culpa on the first part of your answer,

yes, I was right and you were wrong.

You asked me to read previous posts by you.

yes, and look what's clearly in front of you in the quotes you gathered
"the kids who are bullied are often the worst people of all"
Do you know what "often" means? do you think it means "always" ? So just like I re-emphasised later :" I'm not saying it's true 100% of the time, it's just a trend." https://forums.mangadex.org/threads...0-straight-to-the-point.2428501/post-27752776
you state

Groups can be wrong.

yet very clearly I never stated otherwise and acknowledged this repeatedly. Yet you claim I'm the one distorting reality even though you're the one attacking a strawman. Very lacking in self awareness.

 

[danbellucci]

"Nearly everyone is a bad person. Infact if everyone thinks someone is a bad person then really that's the only good person and they're all bad people. Everyone is a bad person except for me. Here's a scientific study proving it"
ok buddy whatever you feel like telling yourself.

What's your scientific study to prove otherwise?

Because your anecdote isn't an evidence.

Some people are so detached from reality and common sense that they'll really ask for a scientific study in order to believe in the idea that if everyone dislikes someone that they can do so for fair reasons . They need a scientific paper in order to believe in the existence of criminals and antisocial people.

 

[Wanderer00]

Hey, you got paid minimum wage to teach some brats 20 or 30 per class and lost all the shine of "bringing knowledge to youths" ages ago after seeing how your work is appreciated little by little.
You would need to have real passion and nerves of steel to care for every single one of those ungrateful little shits.

Seen them care more about a handful of close pupils, as for the rest, nobody talks about fight club lol

I mean, i would expect them to intervene when someone is literally being murdered and have their brains on the floor. Like, that's when you call the cops, jaded or not!

Some people are so detached from reality and common sense that they'll really ask for a scientific study in order to believe in the idea that if everyone dislikes someone that they can do so for fair reasons . They need a scientific paper in order to believe in the existence of criminals and antisocial people.

Dude, just cut it out, we are never gonna agree with you that Uichi deserved to be bullied until he commited suicide

 

[DerekUlty]

Some people are so detached from reality and common sense that they'll really ask for a scientific study in order to believe in the idea that if everyone dislikes someone that they can do so for fair reasons . They need a scientific paper in order to believe in the existence of criminals and antisocial people.

Oh, don't worry, we do believe the bullies exist, that their behaviour can be explained, and that they're the criminals and antisocial people. Also for the love of god, stop saying "I never said that's all of them !". I do think ZERO case of bullying are justified, true. But even without thinking that, the majority of these cases aren't like you think they are (and wow, science can see much deeper than you, that's the strength of the number, how impressive !), and that's what we're trying to convey here. And that, we can find it in papers, not on "common sense". You seem to be very unaware on the number of errors "common sense" can bring, not that it is very surprising tho.

Yes , the majority do indeed believe that if 30 people think you're an asshole then you're probably the problem , not them. Do you know what "probably" means btw? You know it means something different from "definitely", right? The majority also believe that most people are good or decent rather than bad.

Also, that is very untrue, but you perhaps think all the fights against bullying are a conspiracy by administrations and that they all go against "common sense", because that's the only way you could think that genuinely at this point. That, or your friends are as bad as you and so you generalize them as "the majority". Probably. (And since I said "probably", you can't disprove me now ! Haha !)

 

[danbellucci]

Yes , the majority do indeed believe that if 30 people think you're an asshole then you're probably the problem , not them. Do you know what "probably" means btw? You know it means something different from "definitely", right? The majority also believe that most people are good or decent rather than bad.

Also, that is very untrue,

https://today.yougov.com/society/articles/13436-world-more-good-people-than-bad You can find plenty of others. ask your favourite LLM. Most people believe that most people are good. You are out of touch with reality. Touch some grass.

 

[Bonzalez]

Hm....so Clover really did contact her and make her into a pawn..but what reason does she have to resent Uichi? Huge ego? Crazy psycho?

And yikes, that new cover.....poor Yotsuha's starting to crack.

It looks like Clover was just contacting her for the first time there, so she was not a pawn when she walked in the classroom trying to poison the well. She's just a bitch

 

[DerekUlty]

https://today.yougov.com/society/articles/13436-world-more-good-people-than-bad You can find plenty of others. ask your favourite LLM. Most people believe that most people are good. You are out of touch with reality. Touch some grass.

Your source on your dumb argument is that people think they're more good than bad people and LLMs ? Bahahahaha. Go find me an article saying people thinks bullies are often right, that's your argument, if I need to remind it. You need to stop, you found nothing and you're just trying to gaslight us into thinking you're right without any glint of success, because you're wrong. Just admit it or stop answering, nobody will hold you back.

Edit: I will call an answer: No, saying that "there is more good people than bad people" doesn't mean that you think anything else than that. People answered that question, and won't be consistent if you ask them all the questions asking the details. Because they didn't think of that, why would they ? They have way better to do than think all day about all subjects concerning individuals. So, yeah, they will very often be quite positive on non-specific questions like this because, thank god, the majority of people aren't anxious and/or depressive.

 

[rrzqo]

I’m going to be 100% honest, i just want her to threaten everyone involved at gunpoint (with real intent to kill ofc, and guaranteed kill on yae) until one of them reveals themselves as the mastermind. Spamming resets with schemes is cool but god does it take a long time and new enemies keep showing up

yea but if she isn't able to reset because she accidentally killed the mastermind without knowing that it was them who she killed then she'll be arrested and uichi would probably spiral back into depression. its too much of a risk since we already know that the watch can stop working for a time, and if the mastermind dies then the watch could also become useless

 

[danbellucci]

Your source on your dumb argument is that people think they're more good than bad people and LLMs ? Bahahahaha. Go find me an article saying people thinks bullies are often right, that's your argument, if I need to remind it. You need to stop, you found nothing and you're just trying to gaslight us into thinking you're right without any glint of success, because you're wrong. Just admit it or stop answering, nobody will hold you back.

Edit: I will call an answer: No, saying that "there is more good people than bad people" doesn't mean that you think anything else than that. People answered that question, and won't be consistent if you ask them all the questions asking the details. Because they didn't think of that, why would they ? They have way better to do than think all day about all subjects concerning individuals. So, yeah, they will very often be quite positive on non-specific questions like this because, thank god, the majority of people aren't anxious and/or depressive.

Brother, my argument is that if everyone or nearly everyone in a class dislikes someone, it's probably because that person is the problem, not everyone else. You're the one who attempted to refute my arguments by denying the pretty obvious truths that 1. most people are good or decent and 2. most people believe that most people are good or decent.
So the fact is you're just out of touch with the world.
Maybe you should take a look at what someone who agrees with you posted and see what such negative, "unjust world" thinking like you're displaying is correlated with

Some people learn about just-world fallacy and try to leverage that knowledge so they can lean toward "rational" rather than "rationalizations".

Some people learn about it and think, "Oh, so it's not just me! Everyone's doing it, so it must be right!"

from his source :
"Belief in unjust world has been linked to increased self-handicapping, criminality, defensive coping, anger and perceived future risk. It may also serve as ego-protective belief for certain individuals by justifying maladaptive behavior.[2][45][46]"
I've been seeing a decent amount of defensive coping from you.
Hope the other things don't go for you too.
It wouldn't be surprising if who believes in an unjust world and starts behaving like a crminal with anger and defensive coping would be disliked by the other people in their class.
I think you should elevate your mindset to avoid such negative outcomes.

 

[Wanderer00]

Brother, my argument is that if everyone or nearly everyone in a class dislikes someone, it's probably because that person is the problem, not everyone else. You're the one who attempted to refute my arguments by denying the pretty obvious truths that 1. most people are good or decent and 2. most people believe that most people are good or decent.
So the fact is you're just out of touch with the world.
Maybe you should take a look at what someone who agrees with you posted and see what such negative, "unjust world" thinking like you're displaying is correlated with

from his source :
"Belief in unjust world has been linked to increased self-handicapping, criminality, defensive coping, anger and perceived future risk. It may also serve as ego-protective belief for certain individuals by justifying maladaptive behavior.[2][45][46]"
I've been seeing a decent amount of defensive coping from you.
Hope the other things don't go for you too.
It wouldn't be surprising if who believes in an unjust world and starts behaving like a crminal with anger and defensive coping would be disliked by the other people in their class.
I think you should elevate your mindset to avoid such negative outcomes.

Oh my fucking GOD can you stop it already??!! No one is gonna read your long-ass monologues, and as i said we will never agree that Uichi deserved to be bullied!!

Go and discuss your philosophy stuff in PM's or somewhere else instead of continuing to pursue this pointless argument here!!

 

[ChaosMAX1268]

Kinda feels like the dude who said Uichi deserved his bullying ignores that his bullies (beyond his highschool ones except Yae) wanted to kill him and would have if they had the chance. Since their desire to kill Uichi is intrinsically linked to their desire to dominate him (aka bullying) it is almost as if they are justifying murder...

 

[DerekUlty]

Kinda feels like the dude who said Uichi deserved his bullying ignores that his bullies (beyond his highschool ones except Yae) wanted to kill him and would have if they had the chance. Since their desire to kill Uichi is intrinsically linked to their desire to dominate him (aka bullying) it is almost as if they are justifying murder...

Tbh he says that I am the one coping and all of that but I do think he's a former bully who just need to be able to think that it's very uncommon for bullying to be a bad thing. Because all he does is trying to defend that thing preventing him to feel bad about himself. But these type of person will never go to therapy, so, he will never stop to hurt people and will keep saying "no, they're the one who will, I just know it". I sure hope somone will open his eyes one day, won't be random people on internet tho.

 

[arimareiji]

Tbh he says that I am the one coping and all of that but I do think he's a former bully who just need to be able to think that it's very uncommon for bullying to be a bad thing. Because all he does is trying to defend that thing preventing him to feel bad about himself. But these type of person will never go to therapy, so, he will never stop to hurt people and will keep saying "no, they're the one who will, I just know it". I sure hope somone will open his eyes one day, won't be random people on internet tho.

I'm reminded of Fred Phelps' family "church", Westboro Baptist. They know their almost-purely antagonistic methods will never convince anyone, but they embrace the hate they get because it makes them feel 'righteous'.

Your mileage may vary on what sins or flaws, real or exaggerated, they're overcompensating for to make them feel better about it.